Story Brainstorm Session: Night Elves' "Fix"

-Leave Illidan dead

Disagree completely.
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42 Draenei Mage
550
I really can't see what 'getting Tyrande out' accomplishes at all.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8210
12/03/2012 07:51 PMPosted by Mirari
I really can't see what 'getting Tyrande out' accomplishes at all.


She's irredeemable. Even if she was miraculously brought back, that portrayal would have be balanced against the mistakes, which can't be taken back and color her character at this point. Malfurion may be salvageable, but it's a stretch.

We need new characters leading from the front, characters that aren't tainted by poor presentation.
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90 Tauren Death Knight
11125
Kyalin, I agree with everything you posted until this one:


-Leave Illidan dead


The guy had so much potential that was wasted just so he could become the face of the Burning Crusade. As Ferlion said, Malfurion and Illidan are at their best when they play off each other. That should be brought back in a big way. He's not the only character I'd like brought back from the dead, though.

To expound on Tyrande, I don't think they should ditch her completely, but Shandris and Jarod should be at the forefront of the Sentinel army. Leave Tyrande to be High Priestess; that's where she's at her best.
Edited by Abal on 12/3/2012 8:11 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8210
Kyalin, I agree with everything you posted until this one:


-Leave Illidan dead


The guy had so much potential that was wasted just so he could become the face of the Burning Crusade. As Ferlion said, Malfurion and Illidan are at their best when they play off each other. That should be brought back in a big way. He's not the only character I'd like brought back from the dead, though.

To expound on Tyrande, I don't think they should ditch her completely, but Shandris and Jarod should be at the forefront of the Sentinel army. Leave Tyrande to be High Priestess; that's where she's at her best.


Well, I'm not arguing to kill Tyrande and Malfurion, simply to have them out of the spotlight. Let Tyrande be a spiritual leader, not a military leader.
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42 Draenei Mage
550

She's irredeemable..

How exactly is she irredeemable?
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
Illidan doesn't have to come back to life to become relevant again, we could work with his shade or ghost or something.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8210

She's irredeemable..

How exactly is she irredeemable?


I'm going to guess that you haven't been paying attention...

It started in Cataclysm, getting humiliated in her own short story and needing Malfurion to save her, which is reinforced in Wolfheart where she gets taken out pretty quickly. Then we get the HoT instances, with the troll voice, the sparkle dress, (this, I'll add, was in response to the calls for a new model where Tyrande would don her battle armor once again. Seeing now why I have the Norm meme?) presentation where she's a burden on the party despite the facts of the situation, and of course hush Tyrande!

All of this damage was done in a very short time, and in a very public manner, much of it showing up in the game itself for everyone to see again and again as they farmed for their valor points. Blizzard should have seen their error there, but they doubled down with "A Little Patience", also in a very public way which shows that when Tyrande does try to do something, she's useless... and she whines. She's annoying, worthless, and burdensome, and the playerbase knows it.

This sudden twist in characterization is already jarring to the fans, but it's sunk in now, and those who aren't familiar with Warcraft III have this with which to form their opinion. Blizzard can't even retcon this stuff away because the genie is out of the bottle. The mistake has been made, and it can't be taken back.

That's why, again, we need someone who hasn't been tainted by the parade of bad lore. Tyrande needs to be moved out of the spotlight, probably for good.
Edited by Kyalin on 12/3/2012 8:42 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8210
Let me ask about that suggestion (5.3 I guess?). Was it reasonable? What are the flaws with it?
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Aside from the troll comment I think Tyrande still has her place but perhaps and this is just me IMO but her in the Priestess of Elune, a spiritual leader as you suggested.

Either Shandris or Jarod Shadowsong as a millitary commander of the Sentinels. Now whatever Blizzard plans for Tyrande as I have no idea.

Oh and have the Cenarion Circle..have some infighting(The Night Elf side) over Night elf Affairs. That's all I can think of right now this late.
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42 Draenei Mage
550

How exactly is she irredeemable?


I'm going to guess that you haven't been paying attention...

It started in Cataclysm, getting humiliated in her own short story and needing Malfurion to save her, which is reinforced in Wolfheart where she gets taken out pretty quickly. Then we get the HoT instances, with the troll voice, the sparkle dress, (this, I'll add, was in response to the calls for a new model where Tyrande would don her battle armor once again. Seeing now why I have the Norm meme?) presentation where she's a burden on the party despite the facts of the situation, and of course hush Tyrande!

All of this damage was done in a very short time, and in a very public manner, much of it showing up in the game itself for everyone to see again and again as they farmed for their valor points. Blizzard should have seen their error there, but they doubled down with "A Little Patience", also in a very public way which shows that when Tyrande does try to do something, she's useless... and she whines. She's annoying, worthless, and burdensome, and the playerbase knows it.

This sudden twist in characterization is already jarring to the fans, but it's sunk in now, and those who aren't familiar with Warcraft III have this with which to form their opinion. Blizzard can't even retcon this stuff away because the genie is out of the bottle. The mistake has been made, and it can't be taken back.

That's why, again, we need someone who hasn't been tainted by the parade of bad lore. Tyrande needs to be moved out of the spotlight, probably for good.


That seems more like your personal angst rather than any tangible irredeemability.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9145
Look guys... I'm not exactly thrilled with Tyrande's characterization as of late...And I certainly went through my period of elf rage...

You're being a bit harsh on her Kya.

Lets start with her short story.

She didn't "need" saving. Malfurion, who had realized his mistake in leaving his daughter to die (and really, I can't stress enough how big of a douche bag he is) showed up pretty much right after she did.

The only real thing he did was provide a fast way to clear out the naga, and as much as it sucks, Metzen later admitted that Cata pushed Tyrande aside because it was the story of Malfurion coming back. I can understand that. All jokes aside, I don't think Malfurion is going to just skate by. I know people will point out to the "Tyrande needed malfurion's strength to heal shandris" bit..... But Tyrande isn't a machine, and seeing her daughter bleed out when it's already been established she was emotionally unstable due to the rest of the destruction of Cataclysm....Well, it fits she would unravel.

Especially since, timeline wise, the story couldn't have taken all that long after the Stormrage to happen. And Stormrage made her face her greatest fears, and worse, she was awake while she was doing it. And before it comes, "But Malfurion wasn't upset!"...

Right, he wasn't.. He wasn't upset because it's been canonically established he really doesn't care about his people all that much compared to nature. And as a druid, the destruction of nature isn't something to cry about, it's something to repair. So.. If he won't cry about nature, which he loves more than his people, why would he be overly upset about his people?

And let's take a look at wolfheart. Yes, she was taken out quickly.. The Night Elves were handed a pretty nasty defeat... But you're kinda taking that out of context. The Night Elves emergency defense force, vastly outnumbered, outright slaughtered one of the largest Horde armies every put together. Largely because Tyrande. The other priestess helped, but I'm almost positive (I'll have to reread that section) that Tyrande alone provided the majority of the White Light that not only immobilized the Horde casters, it did so to the Horde melee, archers, and healers.

People like to say Varian and the Worgen saved the Night Elves...But they didn't. They saved a small force of Night Ellves that was put together in a days time, and beyond that, the reason they did so was because somehow, light shining in the eyes of Magnataur is the same as thick snow storms. This isn't bad. This is "Put larger group of Night Elves together instead of the fast response team, and watch as the Magnataur get their asses handed to them on a silver platter as the Huntresses decided to bleed the big guys out"

Then, WoTA (I still don't think her model itself is all that bad, as it's clearly inspired by Athene's typical big haired look. More to the point, it also serves to A) Keep hair out her eyes and B) keep her with the regal look that demotes rank. I don't know how close you have examined Tyrande's model, but her hair looks "poofy" for a reason, and it's not to give her a beehive ditzy peggy bundy look.

Her hair is piled up like that because she's got it tucked inside a braid of hair that stops it from falling infront of her eyes. It's a natural hairband, which leaves her head free for the circlet of Elune. (http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/6609/tyrande2.jpg Proof) It's also why the top of her hair is raised, and almost immediately smooths out underneath the braid. It's quite literally hair stuck behind some more hair to hold it out of her eyes.

Her midsection is plenty armor plated, and her shoulder piece is hands down the best looking in the game. Her Dress is also enchanted to the point where the magic runes are clearly visible to the naked freaking eye. Let that sink in for a second. In most fantasy settings, highly magical items or areas tend to feel like stepping into a high static area. If their "extremely" powerful, they may actually show slight visible signs. Tyrande's are powerful enough that the spells on them are constantly visible. That's freaking insane.

Her arm is even left bare for her Archery, and it's topped off by those claws of hers (I LOVE the claws.)

The two biggest complaints I hear and see about her outfit though are her shoes and dress. The shoes, I've always taken for riding shoes. The heals are incredible large for high heel shoes, and more to the point, their strapped, armor reinforced, and leather bound up to her mid calf with bindings. That's some serious reinforcement, and with heals that size, she's going to be fairly sturdy on her feet.

The next one is the girly girly dress.. I'll be honest with you.

When I first saw her dress, I thought of one thing...
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/spartanwarriortyrandeco.png/

One thing you can't deny about Blizzards art team is they don't do things by accident. Their artwork is always designed to bring to mind very specific things. And that dress is spot on to the stereotypical (pre-300 and GoW) Spartan armor. Which fits with the greek themes of the Night Elves. And the temple of Elune still holds those themes, which fits, because Elune is very much a Goddess is the vein of Greek Gods.

And, continuing with her theme, her "Trollande" voice isn't so much troll as much as very bad greek accent. Very, very, very, very, bad greek accent.

And, on that note, lets talk War of the Ancients.. Yeah, the presentation was bad, but lets face it. Game mechanics aside, she was kicking !@# and taking names, soloing an entire army of demons herself except for when she got trapped.

The problem was Blizzard was in the mindset of "easy instances" at the time, and what should have been a challenging encounter unless you keep Tyrande free so she could own the army og demons was turned into "lets ignore Tyrande completely because the mobs don't do enough damage".

A Little Patience is indeed bad. But, and I'll be completely honest here. How she actually shows up in the scenario isn't all that bad when you consider it's Blizzard telling the story. I have actual issues with it, but really, we are forgetting some facts that people just flat out forgot.

A Little Patience is a recycled scenario, or don't you remember the four endings that were included in the "A Little Patience" datamines? Total victory, total defeat, ok work, and good but not great?

Yeah, They obviously had a different idea in mind, my bet is they couldn't get multiple endings to work out due to wanting to maintain one canon, and by the time they decided to just go with what they had, they had to cut out, change, and recycle voice lines from a scenario they just were not happy with. And honestly, I can dig that. They wanted to try something new, and they ended up running out of time.

So, doom and gloom aside? I've worked out my rage, and honestly.. I'm just enjoying the game.
Edited by Ferlion on 12/4/2012 12:25 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
13525
So, doom and gloom aside? I've worked out my rage, and honestly.. I'm just enjoying the game.


*Brain asplodes*
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90 Night Elf Druid
9145
12/03/2012 11:48 PMPosted by Lorthuron
So, doom and gloom aside? I've worked out my rage, and honestly.. I'm just enjoying the game.


*Brain asplodes*


Yeah, what? Come at me broseph.

I will beak you. Like a kit kat bar.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
12/03/2012 11:51 PMPosted by Ferlion


*Brain asplodes*


Yeah, what? Come at me broseph.

I will beak you. Like a kit kat bar.


At least I'm not chicken...
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90 Night Elf Druid
9145
Chicken? No, you ain't chicken, you a turkey.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8210
I'm not going to use direct quotes for this...

Short Story
Remember when you're threading through all of these rationalizations, that Blizzard could have told any story that they wanted to at that time. The faction leader short stories were on the whole good though, not only for shining a light on some issues that people had questions about, but for showing the leader's worth as a leader in a tense or dangerous situation. We got to know them better, and respect them. Tyrande's short story is an anomaly in this regard, because it makes her look weak. Now, you could make a facts and circumstances argument, sure, but I still want to know why Blizzard chose this specific situation, and this specific playout, in favor of say, giving us some real guidance as to what the Night Elves were doing about the Horde.

Wolfheart
Again, you're correct on facts and circumstances. Perhaps I'm being harsh on this point, but it still irks me that we never see the Night Elves victorious unless the enemy just doesn't matter.

Model: Hair
Your argument makes sense until any combat makes the hairstyle come undone. Then the problem is back.

Model: Shoes
I'm still trying to figure out what kind of riding shoe has a heel quite that large. I could understand something like a cowboy boot I guess, but the heel on this goes quite a bit beyond that. I'd challenge someone to run a mile in that, provided that I could prepare a liability waiver.

Model: Dress
What's wrong with putting runes on armor? Why is the dress preferable?

WOTA
Again, we know the facts and circumstances, but the presentation is that she's a burden on the group. This is the matter that actually counts.

A Little Patience: Recycled Scenario.
No, this is not an excuse, not after Cataclysm. Blizzard can't just develop a fully fleshed out Horde storyline and then say "we ran out of time!" when Alliance players come back and ask why parts were left out, and why the bad parts were left in.
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89 Night Elf Death Knight
3140
Kya, I'm not asking for immortality; I'm asking for basic fighting ability that seems to be at least connected to the energy of the World Tree. There's at least two different energy types that seem to be involved; I could be wrong, but, this is like a Super Saiyan having been born a Super Saiyan, and reverting to a normal Saiyan for the first time. Outside of meeting at least one energy need that the race has grown used to, they're going to all die without something to try and meet that need. It's standard biology.

The idea of something that can see the above need met seems to be the issue; something that at least permits the Night Elves to fight back. Immortality is likely gone, and gone for good. The Night Elves need some development in this area, as they received a pass as a race from evolution, and thus likely stagnated themselves during that time.

Tyrande is not being shown as a smart person these days, I agree. The issue is that she has always been hot-headed, just before the broad unskilled brush hit, she at least had enough wherewithal to do something tactically sound in any given situation.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
From what I understand, the World Tree has healed itself far faster and better than even the Aspects thought possible. There isn't any sign it was ever burned, so the energy the Night elves supposedly got from the World Tree should be there. I'm not sure, but I think there was mention that even the blessings that were placed on the World Tree could come back as the Tree heals.

I'm not sure why the immorality went away anyways. What killed Archimode was the wisps, not the power of the World Tree, but the wisps blowing themselves up in and in him. The World Tree was just flash burned.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8210
Kya, I'm not asking for immortality; I'm asking for basic fighting ability that seems to be at least connected to the energy of the World Tree. There's at least two different energy types that seem to be involved; I could be wrong, but, this is like a Super Saiyan having been born a Super Saiyan, and reverting to a normal Saiyan for the first time. Outside of meeting at least one energy need that the race has grown used to, they're going to all die without something to try and meet that need. It's standard biology.

The idea of something that can see the above need met seems to be the issue; something that at least permits the Night Elves to fight back. Immortality is likely gone, and gone for good. The Night Elves need some development in this area, as they received a pass as a race from evolution, and thus likely stagnated themselves during that time.

Tyrande is not being shown as a smart person these days, I agree. The issue is that she has always been hot-headed, just before the broad unskilled brush hit, she at least had enough wherewithal to do something tactically sound in any given situation.


The loss of immortality being responsible for the loss of strength is nothing short of an !@#-pull to justify the losses, which aren't even backed up by the facts and circumstances in most situations, as Ferlion has pointed out in a few cases. Most of our issues are presentation problems, Blizzard's need to prevent Ashenvale from being told from the other side or from being handed the idiot ball, which has nothing to do with strength in combat, so it makes even less sense.

It's inconsistent, it's annoying, and it makes no sense to pursue the line any further if Malfurion thought he knew better than the dragons when they were offering to give it.
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