Ret Paladins and the Future (problems)

76 Blood Elf Priest
420
Hello Forumgoers and Paladins,

It has come to my attention that in 5.1 with the reduction of the 4P cooldown the outlook for Ret Paladins is really bleak. I've looked at Simulation information and it seems they are bottom of the barrel and not close at all to the top in this particular Simulation up to >30%< difference. This is on a single target fight, which you may say "We don't have many single target 'Patchwerk-esque' fights", and of course the 'ole, "we run internal simulations that are very accurate". 30% is either a LARGE margin of error, in reality it may only be 25%, which is still a VERY large issue.

At the beginning of the expansion classes were tightly tuned, every spec had a chance to be top, it was great. However that has changed, either with PvP balance issues, and even PvE balance issues. It's great you guys made an attempt to balance at the time and even on the beta.

I admit, I felt overpowered on the beta, but right now I almost feel like a liability to my raid if it wasn't for the fact I am a top 20 player and have some of the best clutch maneuvers you have ever seen. I like the utility of ret paladins right now. It may not be as strong as warriors, but it is one of the best toolkits. However your only claim to fame in a raid can't be Aura Mastery, HoSacrifice, and LoH/Bubble. You also need to meet berserk timers and do enough damage to make the fight easier.

I have come up with a couple changes that should be easily implemented:

  • Maybe buff the weapon damage part of Seal of Truth. Maybe even play with the seal, not necessarily make it a brain-dead non-stacking DoT, however that would make Double Jeopardy Glyph more mandatory than it already is.
  • Maybe buff Crusader Strike so it feels like a nice big melee strike instead of something below Judgment in DPE. Judgment doing the damage it does now is nice as it is holy damage and is really nice in PvP because of it's range. Also, Judgment is just a boring damage spell and the only thing saving it from being a boring damage spell is the Holy Power component and the Debuff it brings from talents/4% Physical Vulnerability.
  • Maybe buff Templar's Verdict? Many people constantly talk about how it feels so weak etc. It does a lot of damage in PvE against weakened armor targets/during CDs, but in PvP it is weak, and even in PvE it hits about as hard as Templars Verdict if I remember correctly, and that's with 15% 2P T14 bonus.

    Oh, I know a good alternative, maybe adding consecration back into the rotation similar to Wrath where it was a pretty good DPE spell and LOOKED AWESOME! 8 second CD or whatever it was, but this will help a lot with AoE....
  • AOE???? Ret paladins are some of the worst AOE/burst AOE. Divine Storm is worth using on 2 targets, however you basically follow your single target rotation up to around 6 targets or so. Not to mention double dotting with Censure is your only saving grace with 2 targets.
    Hammer of the Righteous is REALLY weak for Ret.

    Seal of Righteousness is garbage until around 8 targets or so if I remember correctly. Personally I've only switched seals while alt-tabbed doing Heart of Fear trash, and only did that once. In DS I switched seals for Yorsahj, Madness, Ice Blocks on Hagara, just to name a recent few.

    Oh, BTW, a majority of other classes have way better AOE, not to mention its burstier, which is needed for a LOT of fights. Some classes can even talent for burstier AOE, Ret has nothing like that. Light's Hammer is cool, however is barely an upgrade over Execution Sentence in DPE for 2 targets.
  • Also, is there any reason for not having 2 minute wings? Not really complaining but this alone would help damage.
  • Thanks for reading, would really appreciate if they changed some things before 5.1 hits while they can on the PTR. Really don't the rest of this tier to be like T11 with a bad mastery.
    Edited by Myrolumast on 11/23/2012 7:23 PM PST
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    76 Blood Elf Priest
    420
    Meh list looks messy, but it's better than what it was before :)
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    81 Human Warrior
    9530
    11/23/2012 06:24 PMPosted by Myrolumast
    Hammer of the Righteous is REALLY weak for Ret.


    With more calculations and data EJ has concluded that HotR is a DPS increase on two targets.
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    76 Blood Elf Priest
    420
    11/24/2012 01:35 AMPosted by Waifu
    Hammer of the Righteous is REALLY weak for Ret.


    With more calculations and data EJ has concluded that HotR is a DPS increase on two targets.


    It's a toss-up, 3 is guaranteed more damage. Take a look at a cleaving fight, 25H STone Guard, the couple high ones I looked at were using CS instead.

    Needless to say, HotR IS weak, compare it to Howling Blast. Howling Blast does probably twice the damage, spreads DoTs, and is relatively the same cooldown.
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    14490
    I agree that ret seems weak. I really enjoy it nonetheless, bu I'd love to see less fall off between burn phases. Maybe more TV damage or some additional CS damage. Not sure what the best answer is but I think rets need some love. The rotation is disproportionately complicated for how low the dps is. Not to say its too hard or unfun, but rather that it shouldn't suffer so much decline over long fights.
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    90 Draenei Death Knight
    14530
    There are a few particular problems I've noticed with Retribution's damage from a PvE/PvP standpoint that I'd like to echo.

    First, as said, Retribution's AoE is noticeably weaker than many other melee right now considering it's longer ramp-up and the gross weakness of 'AoE' Seals like Righteousness which most Ret Paladins admit they almost never have cause to use.

    Several Rets have advocated making SoR a 'tanking' specific Seal instead and allowing SoT to spread Censure via HotR/DS, which makes sense and would be a rather easy fix. I'd also tentatively advocate slightly buffing HotR damage as it does seem rather low right now.

    Secondly, Retribution burst is a real mess right now with it entirely at the mercy of either huge burst CDs like Holy Avenger or finicky RNG like Divine Purpose, as well as the fact that it's primary damage attack Templar's Verdict is not hitting hard enough to truely differentiate itself in the standard rotation with it not far from auto-attack of all things:/

    I believe it was a mistake to make BOTH Retribution's Zealotry and Divine Purpose talents in MoP because it fundamentally stripped baseline burst potential from the spec and now forces it to make do with either or. This is especially evident in PvP where Retribution's burst is noticeably low outside of popping HA or getting lucky with DP.

    What's done is done however, but I think if Templar's Verdict was buffed perhaps 10% or gained better benefits from Mastery this could be worked out. However it's done, it's damage has been diluted too much out of fear that faster Holy Power generation in MoP would make it too powerful and needs to be brought up to par once more. This would solve alot of the damage problems Retribution is currently facing, and in terms of QoL allow it to actually kill something at 90 without needing to pop big damage CDs or pray to the RNG gods.
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    90 Human Paladin
    14125
    11/24/2012 08:30 AMPosted by Rathior
    I agree that ret seems weak. I really enjoy it nonetheless, bu I'd love to see less fall off between burn phases. Maybe more TV damage or some additional CS damage. Not sure what the best answer is but I think rets need some love. The rotation is disproportionately complicated for how low the dps is. Not to say its too hard or unfun, but rather that it shouldn't suffer so much decline over long fights.


    I have my fair share of alts, and their dps is surprisingly easy compared to Ret. In fact, so far Ret has the most complicated dps rotation I have yet to deal with. Not an issue, but when your producing one of the lowest dps in game it seems counterintuitive. Usually complicated dps specs leave lots of room for improvement, but there really isn't in this case.

    As far as the OP is concerned, his opinions for the most part reflect how other Rets feel. My suggestions would be too...

  • Buff TV damage by at least 15%. While your at it buff Divine Storm as well.
  • Fix Seal of the Righteous by increasing it's damage. It's so weak that in most cases Rets use Seal of Truth and forget about other Seals.
  • Exchange Hammer of Wrath with Exorcism when you use Avenging Wrath, and buff Hammer of Wrath substantially. Hunters have a ranged execute and it does substantial damage in comparison. No reason to tie Hammer of Wrath to Avenging Wrath, and no reason not to buff it.


  • These changes I believe are fair.
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    81 Human Warrior
    9530
    11/24/2012 10:06 AMPosted by Randarion
    I believe it was a mistake to make BOTH Retribution's Zealotry and Divine Purpose talents in MoP because it fundamentally stripped baseline burst potential from the spec and now forces it to make do with either or.


    I agree with this. The only RNG variable Ret has is resetting the cooldown on Exo, which isn't as rewarding as what other classes get. I would also like to see a glyph that lowers the CD on GOAK but also reduces its effect. If a boss dies too fast you lose a lot of damage not getting a second GOAK.

    11/24/2012 04:37 AMPosted by Myrolumast
    Howling Blast does probably twice the damage, spreads DoTs, and is relatively the same cooldown.


    HOTR isn't meant to be insanely hard hitting. It's meant to be AOE filler for Divine Storm. It would be more fair to compare HB to DS.
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    11915
    11/24/2012 04:37 AMPosted by Myrolumast
    It's a toss-up, 3 is guaranteed more damage.

    It isn't a toss-up, math isn't so wishy-washy. It's more damage than CS on two if you have Inquisition up.
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    76 Blood Elf Priest
    420
    11/24/2012 02:52 PMPosted by Elidra
    It's a toss-up, 3 is guaranteed more damage.

    It isn't a toss-up, math isn't so wishy-washy. It's more damage than CS on two if you have Inquisition up.


    Tell that to the rets on Stone Guard 25H at the top, I counted 1 or 2 (HotR as HP builder) in the top 10, the 1st place being Crusader Strike. I did it on target dummies (missing raid debuffs/buffs) and it was significantly less damage than Crusader Strike hitting two targets, not to mention a good part of the time you have to be right next to the other target and facing them. I'm not going to say Exemplar is an idiot and is only good at Excel and has no logs to prove he is even good, but those are some comments people make about him. However I did like when in T11 he claimed using 2P T10 since it reset Divine Storm (was bugged at the time) was "godlike" on Halfus and everyone made fun of him since the stat loss was so much, not to mention I think he was using 251 Tier.
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    13950
    I wouldn't trust everything you read on EJ, they sometimes lose perspective of practical situations through their numbers crunches. Even when DS and HotR are increases at low mob numbers, they are small increases and don't hold a candle to specs with real cleaves. DS does shine on medium - large number mobs who stay alive a long time though.

    Ret's main problem is that they gutted the spec for the new talent trees. If we had our old spec tools and got the overhauled HP generation of MoP we'd be laughing all the way to the bank.
    Look at what we lost: Long Arm, PoJ, Repent, Holy Avenger, Divine Purpose, 2min wings, and Sacred shield. We did gain a few perks along the way though so having all these tools would probably make us overpowered in our current state.

    I really think that we need DP back as baseline, it will boost sustained and AoE damage, as well as making the rotation a bit more fun. SoR and HotR could definitely use a boost. Alternatively just give us a real cleave and not worry about those 2 unless there are a lot of adds which doesn't happen that often anyways. I'm also a strong proponent of getting rid of Inq or improving it in a significant way, it takes zero skill and might as well be a passive.
    I'd be really happy with hotr/ds spreading censure but I'd be content with them just refreshing it too. Also since we're one of the cooldown dependent specs, it would be cool if they make our cds similar to Unbreakable Spirit so that their cd gets reduced in some way that scales with our gear.
    Edited by Tbolt on 11/24/2012 6:43 PM PST
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    90 Draenei Death Knight
    14530
    I agree that Divine Purpose should be relegated to a Ret-specific part of the toolset because A) there is simply no place to implement another burst mechanic short of adding this without being too powerful, and B) because as mentioned before Retribution is suffering from only having one half of it's burst potential when it previously had both without being too powerful.

    Considering Retribution is middle/lower of the pack in terms of DPS right now in both PvE and PvP scenarios, I don't see reimplementing DP alongside having access to talents like HA being a problem. In fact, I see that being beneficial since we could lower some of the immense amounts of burst inherent in Holy Avenger since it would no longer be so absolutely necessary to get a kill or maintain effective DPS.

    Bottom line, Retribution burst potential was diluted too far and made too little a choice simply to fill out a talent tier. Holy and Protection made no such sacrifice, it seems nothing more than a lack of imagination on the part of the developers and Retribution is once again paying for it.
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    11915
    11/24/2012 05:16 PMPosted by Myrolumast
    Tell that to the rets on Stone Guard 25H at the top

    Appeals to authority are logical fallacies (let alone the nonsense of considering someone an authority just because they're in a good guild). Hell, the top Ret on 25h used Execution Sentence rather than Light's Hammer, and you're trying to hold them up as examples of how to do best.

    Do the math yourself if you don't believe Exemplar or anyone else who's done it. There's nothing anecdotal or subjective about DPS and damage, it's pure and simple math.
    Edited by Elidra on 11/24/2012 7:42 PM PST
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    13950
    Appeals to authority are logical fallacies (let alone the nonsense of considering someone an authority just because they're in a good guild). Hell, the top Ret on 25h used Execution Sentence rather than Light's Hammer, and you're trying to hold them up as examples of how to do best.

    Do the math yourself if you don't believe Exemplar or anyone else who's done it. There's nothing anecdotal or subjective about DPS and damage, it's pure and simple math.


    Math is only half the battle, if you can't execute correctly or pick the right math for the right situation, then you will still suck. As for stoneguard which can be full of movement according using most strats, ES is perfectly viable since LH requires more than one target to be inside its radius for an extended amount of time for it to be a dps increase. Also I'd like to see the math on HotR being a dps increase on 2 targets, because it wasn't last I looked.
    Edited by Tbolt on 11/25/2012 12:35 AM PST
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    92 Human Paladin
    13000
    Seal of Righteousness is flat out brokenly useless. Ret doesn't use it, but neither does prot!

    I can't think of a single time it actually did useful damage while tanking, even with crazy Vengeance. It simply doesn't scale well with anything. Even with huge amounts of Vengeance, I'm seeing ~1200 hits from it. That's awful. With very little Vengeance the hits are in the 400 range. 3-digit numbers shouldn't be the case in an expansion where even quest mobs have a half million health.
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    90 Human Paladin
    13525
    I believe we're the worst scaling dps spec, or cerainly one of them, so expect our dps numbers to continue to decline relative to other specs as we go deeper into the expansion. Unless there are some changes. I'd like to to see both CS/HR and TV get a 10%ish buff to increase our sustained; that would work out to roughly a 4% buff overall.

    I also love the suggestion of making divine purpose baseline again; I know some hated it but I always like a little more rng. Keeps me on my toes.

    Edit, oh, and can Hammer of Wrath be an actual execute again? At least when the target is below 20% health?
    Edited by Carmageddon on 11/25/2012 1:50 AM PST
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    90 Orc Hunter
    17370
    11/24/2012 07:33 PMPosted by Elidra
    Tell that to the rets on Stone Guard 25H at the top

    Appeals to authority are logical fallacies (let alone the nonsense of considering someone an authority just because they're in a good guild). Hell, the top Ret on 25h used Execution Sentence rather than Light's Hammer, and you're trying to hold them up as examples of how to do best.

    Do the math yourself if you don't believe Exemplar or anyone else who's done it. There's nothing anecdotal or subjective about DPS and damage, it's pure and simple math.


    got em
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    9460
    lol.. try being a shaman.
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    76 Blood Elf Priest
    420
    Tell that to the rets on Stone Guard 25H at the top

    Appeals to authority are logical fallacies (let alone the nonsense of considering someone an authority just because they're in a good guild). Hell, the top Ret on 25h used Execution Sentence rather than Light's Hammer, and you're trying to hold them up as examples of how to do best.

    Do the math yourself if you don't believe Exemplar or anyone else who's done it. There's nothing anecdotal or subjective about DPS and damage, it's pure and simple math.


    Ok, that's your opinion. However the math tells me ret is the 2nd to last dps spec, so, that's an issue when they are 30% lower than the top spec. Good enough math for you?

    I'll let the numbers do the talking: http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/scarlet%20crusade/exemplar/
    Edited by Myrolumast on 11/25/2012 3:11 AM PST
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    81 Human Warrior
    9530


    Ok, that's your opinion. However the math tells me ret is the 2nd to last dps spec, so, that's an issue when they are 30% lower than the top spec. Good enough math for you?

    I'll let the numbers do the talking: http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/scarlet%20crusade/exemplar/


    Examplar doesn't have to be a top tier player to number crunch.

    Elidra never commented on the state of Ret's overrall state of DPS. He/she is just clearing up misinformation concerning HOTR.
    Edited by Waifu on 11/25/2012 5:41 AM PST
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