Ret Paladins and the Future (problems)

76 Blood Elf Priest
420


Ok, that's your opinion. However the math tells me ret is the 2nd to last dps spec, so, that's an issue when they are 30% lower than the top spec. Good enough math for you?

I'll let the numbers do the talking: http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/scarlet%20crusade/exemplar/


Examplar doesn't have to be a top tier player to number crunch.

Elidra never commented on the state of Ret's overrall state of DPS. He/she is just clearing up misinformation concerning HOTR.


Misinformation? It's the same if not worse than CS (and harder to land in some cases) for 2 targets and the same thing with CS, they both hit like noodles, and effect the performance of ret paladins. Keep in mind the Sim having Ret as 2nd to last and 30% behind the top spec is for single target damage, something ret SHOULD/HAS excelled at. It's sad when a DoT(See: AOE) class which has more potential than ret is already 30% higher than them on SINGLE target.

BTW, Exemplar isn't even a "top tier" number cruncher either. His spreadsheet was bugged (see: wrong)for almost all of DS IIRC.

Bottom line is HoR is weak compared to other AOEs of similar CD/priority in multi-target scenarios.
Edited by Myrolumast on 11/25/2012 5:52 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9290
11/24/2012 07:33 PMPosted by Elidra
Tell that to the rets on Stone Guard 25H at the top

Appeals to authority are logical fallacies (let alone the nonsense of considering someone an authority just because they're in a good guild). Hell, the top Ret on 25h used Execution Sentence rather than Light's Hammer, and you're trying to hold them up as examples of how to do best.

Do the math yourself if you don't believe Exemplar or anyone else who's done it. There's nothing anecdotal or subjective about DPS and damage, it's pure and simple math.


Sorry, but I just HAD to add this. Appeals to authority are NOT logical fallacies. They are perfectly sound reasoning. Appeals to UNQUALIFIED authority, on the other hand are fallacies. Whom you appeal to is pertinent in determining whether your reasoning is a fallacy.

I blame my philosophy course for this.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
11/25/2012 06:28 AMPosted by Nymué
Sorry, but I just HAD to add this. Appeals to authority are NOT logical fallacies. They are perfectly sound reasoning. Appeals to UNQUALIFIED authority, on the other hand are fallacies. Whom you appeal to is pertinent in determining whether your reasoning is a fallacy.

No. Claiming that a statement is backed by evidence simply because someone said so is a fallacy, no matter who this someone is. The only thing that is evidence is evidence, not anecdotes, regardless of the source.

11/25/2012 05:49 AMPosted by Myrolumast
Misinformation? It's the same if not worse than CS (and harder to land in some cases) for 2 targets

You're still just wasting words without mathematical evidence. Math is the only evidence of any value when comparing two numbers.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16880
11/25/2012 05:49 AMPosted by Myrolumast
Misinformation?


Yes, misinformation. This thread is full of it, all your arguments are based on anecdotes and when others counter this with facts you go "Nuh uh!".
Edited by Cadenbrie on 11/25/2012 11:14 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9290
I'd like to see a way of spreading censure via DS, maybe only stacks one time, but I seem to hit the AOE cap very easily, but dot-spreading classes like DKs and SV hunters just blow everyone else away because dots don't count as AOE. Why add an AOE cap if certain classes just ignore it?

If this were to happen, multi dotting on fights like Stone Guard would be faceroll easy, and I'm not sure how i feel about that.
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81 Human Warrior
9530

Bottom line is HoR is weak compared to other AOEs of similar CD/priority in multi-target scenarios.


Like what?

The only other AOE you brought up was Howling Blast which cannot be compared to HOTR.
Edited by Waifu on 11/25/2012 3:14 PM PST
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76 Blood Elf Priest
420
11/25/2012 11:00 AMPosted by Elidra
Sorry, but I just HAD to add this. Appeals to authority are NOT logical fallacies. They are perfectly sound reasoning. Appeals to UNQUALIFIED authority, on the other hand are fallacies. Whom you appeal to is pertinent in determining whether your reasoning is a fallacy.

No. Claiming that a statement is backed by evidence simply because someone said so is a fallacy, no matter who this someone is. The only thing that is evidence is evidence, not anecdotes, regardless of the source.

Misinformation? It's the same if not worse than CS (and harder to land in some cases) for 2 targets

You're still just wasting words without mathematical evidence. Math is the only evidence of any value when comparing two numbers.


I don't see why you are bringing up one issue which is correct, CS hits harder than HotR on 2 targets, plain and simple. It's guaranteed to not miss another target and no positional requirement. This thread isn't about comparing our own skills, I said both are really weak. You are trying to win the battle but not the war. You get your information from the Ret Paladin village idiot and claim it as God wrote it himself. Stop talking in this thread, please. All you have is numbers (which coincidentally are wrong), an argument that is based around something that doesn't even matter, barely any raiding experience, and apparently no experience with any other classes. Good day, mam, ignored.
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76 Blood Elf Priest
420
Misinformation?


Yes, misinformation. This thread is full of it, all your arguments are based on anecdotes and when others counter this with facts you go "Nuh uh!".


For your information I tested it in game and it was always ~90% of the damage as CS on two targets.
Edited by Myrolumast on 11/26/2012 2:04 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
12585
The bind we're in if it actually exists at higher gear levels is because prior to launch late in the beta Rets got hit with a variety of damage nerfs to nearly all of our filler spells.

If our DPS is as low as the sims are predicting it will be, then all the devs have to do is turn those same knobs back to what they were before they cut them.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
11/25/2012 05:56 PMPosted by Myrolumast
You are trying to win the battle but not the war.

This isn't even necessarily just about CS and HotR, it's about basic laws of logic and evidence.

11/25/2012 05:56 PMPosted by Myrolumast
You get your information from the Ret Paladin village idiot and claim it as God wrote it himself.

No, he brought the idea to my attention, after which I did the math and tests myself, as any reasonable person should.

11/25/2012 05:56 PMPosted by Myrolumast
All you have is numbers (which coincidentally are wrong), an argument that is based around something that doesn't even matter, barely any raiding experience, and apparently no experience with any other classes.

Not only is armoury trolling frowned upon, it doesn't discredit an argument based on objective facts at all. I guess I should also change my passwords since you apparently have access to my account and can see all of my characters, too.

For reference:
n = number of targets
m = mastery multiplier after Inquisition (1.26 for 20% HoL, and so on)

CS = m(125 x .667) + (12 x 1.3)
CS does 125% weapon damage, which is multiplied by .667 due to armour. (12 x 1.3) is the SoT hit.

HotR = m((20 x .667) + n(35 x 1.3)) + (12 x 1.3)
HotR does 20% physical damage to the main target, and then 35% Holy to every target in range, as well as a Seal hit.

If you cancel out the Seal hits and remove the mastery multipliers, you have (125 x .667) compared to ((20 x .667) + n(35 x 1.3)). Put in 2 for n, and you get 83 for CS and 104.34 for HotR. The only way you could think HotR does less than CS on two targets is if you don't know the shockwave hits the main target and that the shockwave has mastery damage as well, or if you don't have Inquisition up.

Now seriously, put up some contradictory evidence or accept your precious anecdotes as worthless.
Edited by Elidra on 11/26/2012 12:26 PM PST
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76 Blood Elf Priest
420
4714 (Physical) 12144 (H Shockwave) 11829 (H Shockwave) 2161 (Physical mastery) 5422 (SW Mastery) 5567 (SW Mastery) HotR total= 41837

29473 (CS initial damage) 12867 (CS mastery) CS total= 42340

42340 - 41837 = 503 LESS damage than CS on 2 targets, not to mention no facing requirement for CS like buggy HotR.

inb4 "but but raid buffs", "but but raid debuffs", "well on this fight", "it was on a training dummy, it doesn't count", "at certain thresholds it's better", "Exemplar did the math!", "RNG!" and last but not least "ancedotal etc.". Truth be told I did one test, I got better things to do then argue 1 sentence of a long list of issues with some ham on the forums who has nothing better to do then cherry pick one statement which was an exaggeration at best.

Also in my test it never proc'd SoT on the 2nd target, even with Censure on it to try to prove your point. (cy@)

It's in simple math so you can understand it, since you seem to have misunderstood my first post arguing that it is weak.
Edited by Myrolumast on 11/26/2012 1:34 AM PST
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76 Blood Elf Priest
420
The bind we're in if it actually exists at higher gear levels is because prior to launch late in the beta Rets got hit with a variety of damage nerfs to nearly all of our filler spells.

If our DPS is as low as the sims are predicting it will be, then all the devs have to do is turn those same knobs back to what they were before they cut them.


Supposedly ret was "close to how they wanted it" and then the nerfs came, if I remember correctly. Every beta after a while contained a ret nerf.

Divine Storm wasn't even overpowered but they nerfed that in DS (during the pre-MoP patch) in which every ret had INSANE mastery due to gear during that period. (which is one of the problems with ret ATM, the lack of AOE burst/AOE)

The only reason ret damage "seemed" fine (pre-MoP patch) was the inclusion of the T13 set bonuses. 15% on CS, 20% on TV, HUGE buffs.
Edited by Myrolumast on 11/26/2012 1:31 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
12585
The point I was trying to make was that it's an easy fix to put our DPS up to where it needs to be for the developers, provided a problem actually occurs.

All they have to do is revert the nerfs from Beta and we'd be in a much better spot.

They aren't going to do anything based entirely on sim data though, they've said that over and over again. We'll have to wait until people actually start gearing up more to accumulate the sort of data Blizz will need before they make any moves on our damage output.

Keep in mind anything they do to us for PvE purposes will filter over to PvP as well, (not that I'd be opposed to that) so it would make sense for them to take their time with it.
Edited by Vindicare on 11/26/2012 1:38 AM PST
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76 Blood Elf Priest
420
30% is a LOT of buffing to do with Ret Paladins (if we were to be equal to all specs like was advertised in Blizzard Posts). If we see any buff its only going to be around 5-7% total (typical buff for ret as they have done basically every tier as they fall behind or got nerfed, like in the Cata pre-patch), I guarantee it. They are 100% fine if ret is in the middle but still so far from the top. Usually they were able to make us not look as bad by putting arms warriors, the worst rogue spec, frost mages and BM hunters behind us. Now that they are a viable spec, can we make ret a viable spec?
Edited by Myrolumast on 11/26/2012 2:17 AM PST
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81 Human Warrior
9530
11/26/2012 01:24 AMPosted by Myrolumast
Truth be told I did one test, I got better things to do then argue 1 sentence of a long list of issues with some ham on the forums who has nothing better to do then cherry pick one statement which was an exaggeration at best.


How often did each skill crit?

Does your weapon have windsong?

Were you using might or kings?

What other raid buffs did you have?

How long did you sit at the dummy for?

Do you have any other procs that could have affected the tests?
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90 Human Paladin
10430
Here's my take: I don't see blue ever commenting regarding retribution and DPS being a problem. Infact I think I've seen them saying that we're perfectly balanced, and what other classes should be performing like.

I don't see a buff coming retribution's way anytime soon. If anything, i think other classes might see a nerf. There is no "buzz" about retribution DPS being a problem blue side, and that's the politics of Warcraft.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
11/26/2012 01:24 AMPosted by Myrolumast
"it was on a training dummy, it doesn't count"

The numbers are for raid boss-level dummies, lower level ones will favour CS more due to less armour.

11/26/2012 01:24 AMPosted by Myrolumast
"RNG!"

Weapon damage has a range, one test doesn't prove anything.

11/26/2012 01:24 AMPosted by Myrolumast
4714 (Physical) 12144 (H Shockwave) 11829 (H Shockwave)

The only way you could get those numbers is if you don't have Inquisition up. With Inquisition, if 4700 is the physical hit, the shockwaves should be doing around 16k.

It's worth nothing that, had you had Inquisition up, the damage without mastery or the one Seal hit each would have been quite near the 104:83 ratio my math predicted.

11/26/2012 01:24 AMPosted by Myrolumast
Also in my test it never proc'd SoT on the 2nd target, even with Censure on it to try to prove your point.

I never said it did, which should have been obvious from the math I showed.

11/25/2012 05:56 PMPosted by Myrolumast
Good day, mam, ignored.

Your ignore function seems to be broken.
Edited by Elidra on 11/26/2012 12:53 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
14125
Here's my take: I don't see blue ever commenting regarding retribution and DPS being a problem. Infact I think I've seen them saying that we're perfectly balanced, and what other classes should be performing like.

I don't see a buff coming retribution's way anytime soon. If anything, i think other classes might see a nerf. There is no "buzz" about retribution DPS being a problem blue side, and that's the politics of Warcraft.

That's the problem, cause patch 5.1 doesn't offer nerfs to other dps. Right now the top of dps meters are Mages, Rogues, Warlocks and DKs. Mages didn't receive a damage nerf, just lost control in PvP. Rogues got a damage buff. Warlocks didn't receive a damage nerf. Death Knights are nearly untouched.

Hunters sadly got nerfs and they're not doing well in PvE to begin with. It seems there's a hierarchy of which dps is allowed to really compete. Why you think some Ret Paladins wanna be able to dual wield? Look at Warriors, cause when they dual wield they do much better then their ARMs spec. ARMs for burst, and Fury for sustained.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11505
Hello Forumgoers and Paladins,

It has come to my attention that in 5.1 with the reduction of the 4P cooldown the outlook for Ret Paladins is really bleak. I've looked at Simulation information


Stopped right here. Simlationcraft has been shot down by the devs themselves as being inaccurate.

Find some logs of parses to back up your theories.
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