Optimized better than Ask Mr.Robot

90 Worgen Death Knight
11860
So has anyone else noticed that it is possible to out-optimize Ask Mr. Robot? My current setup they rank as 117407 and when I "optimize" it has my optimum at 117252! Not sure how this works, but clearly there's something off...
Just thought it was interesting and wondering if anyone else has had this?
Cheers,
-Zak
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12995
Wowreforge> Mr.robot

just saying
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90 Worgen Death Knight
11860
Yeah, but I haven't been able to get it working lately...crashes on me.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8585
Im on wowreforge at moment and its slightly confusing, where as icey veins shows me the gains /loss's I cant seem to find it on wow reforge :(
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90 Draenei Death Knight
14890
Ask Mr.Robot has numerous bugs, and I'd discourage using it altogether. Wowreforge isn't perfect itself, but it's a much better option comparatively. That is, unless you like doing all the math yourself. As long as you can pull some stat weight numbers from Elitist Jerks, or such, and understand that the stats fluctuate a little bit depending on your gear, you'll be fine.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9635
I have never understood the attitude of people who think they can somehow out math a computer program that runs through 10000s of reforge permutations to give you the one that maximizes your stats. Comments like " askmrrobot has numerous bugs" are usually from people who don't realize that sometimes not hitting a hit cap or an expertise cap is worth it because that extra 0.05 percent gain in hit cap may not be worth the loss in other stats or don't fully appreciate that enough of a secondary stat may be worth more than a primary stat in ways that can be difficult to calculate because you can't always appreciate the ramifications of reforging one item on the reforge options for all the other items.

To be the most exact in your reforge build you need to know your stat weights. You can get that from simcraft. Askmrrobot allows you to modify the default stat weights to your own. Plugging in the stat weights which are specific to your gear at the moment will allow the program to run through all the permutations of possible reforges and give you the one that's "optimal" There is no way you can out math that yourself and there is no "bug" in comparing thousands of reforge permuations and recommending the one that based on your stat weight is maximizes the stats
Edited by Jeddin on 11/26/2012 6:57 AM PST
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90 Worgen Death Knight
11860
I'm just saying that even Ask Mr. Robot indicates my current reforge gives me a higher "score" than their reforge even after hitting optimize. I'm not saying I'm outsmarting the computer, but clearly programs like Ask Mr. Robot do have some flaws. That and it was more a point of interest than anything else.
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90 Orc Death Knight
11050
wowreforge > askmrrobot
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90 Draenei Death Knight
14890
I have never understood the attitude of people who think they can somehow out math a computer program that runs through 10000s of reforge permutations to give you the one that maximizes your stats. Comments like " askmrrobot has numerous bugs" are usually from people who don't realize that sometimes not hitting a hit cap or an expertise cap is worth it because that extra 0.05 percent gain in hit cap may not be worth the loss in other stats or don't fully appreciate that enough of a secondary stat may be worth more than a primary stat in ways that can be difficult to calculate because you can't always appreciate the ramifications of reforging one item on the reforge options for all the other items.

To be the most exact in your reforge build you need to know your stat weights. You can get that from simcraft. Askmrrobot allows you to modify the default stat weights to your own. Plugging in the stat weights which are specific to your gear at the moment will allow the program to run through all the permutations of possible reforges and give you the one that's "optimal" There is no way you can out math that yourself and there is no "bug" in comparing thousands of reforge permuations and recommending the one that based on your stat weight is maximizes the stats


I think most people know by now that not hitting a cap is sometimes optimal, or that converse can also be true - going over a cap is optimal. Not everyone has Simcraft, or wants to download it; the stats given by sites such as Elitest Jerk are pretty reliable a vast majority of the time, and if you understand how the stats fluctuate, you'll be fine.

No one said that they could out smart a computer program. I can only think that you were referring to my comment about, "unless you want to do the math yourself," which was nothing but a joke.

Regarding all of that, Ask Mr.Robot has still been known to make more mistakes than most are comfortable with. As Zakariyas was saying, he had one ranking and then after supposedly 'optimizing' he came out with a lower ranking. That is a glaring error in the program, and it unfortunately happens often. Wowreforge isn't exempt from this problem either, but it occurs far less often than with Ask Mr.Robot. That's why most discourage using it in favor of Wowreforge.
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90 Worgen Death Knight
11860
Precisely Manarri.
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90 Night Elf Druid
6820
Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. First of all, Mr. Robot will not let your score go down, UNLESS you have a constraint forcing him to do so. Forcing hit caps, or putting in a Haste breakpoint, for example, will do this.

I looked up your character, Zakariyas, and I see the score going up. I'm guessing you have different settings than I do. Can you either tell me what they are, or save a profile and give me the link? I'd like to take a look. Here's the link for what I'm seeing: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/389f2f36-2b50-4de2-a982-71dc18e1d685

Now, there's one other reason the score could go down: a bug! For example, last week someone found a bug that when specific conditions were met, Mr. Robot was limiting JC gems to 1 (not 2). Since he felt forced to do that, he removed one, making the score go down. We fixed that the same day we found it - so if you do in fact have a bug affecting you, I'm eager to find it.

As for manually outscoring the robot - it's possible with a lot of time (don't let him know I said that, he'll probably give me the silent treatment for a week!). Mr. Robot looks at tens of thousands of optimization setups, but not all 250k-500k that are possible. He uses an algorithm to cut a few corners, in a very smart way. He does this so he can optimize you in a second or less without crashing his servers. His goal is to get people to the best solution, or to within 99.9% of the best solution. If the program ran on your computer, however, he could check every single combination (but a web site can't without crashing).

Hope that info helps! And I'll check back to get your options/saved profile Zakariyas :)
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90 Worgen Death Knight
11860
He Zoopercat,

I checked +300str food in the settings and I set it to force hit/exp caps as I prefer this and am still not completely sold on losing hit/exp for haste, which is what the system seems to give me. Now if I could be at 7.49% hit/exp in exchange for mastery to boost my damage as Masterfrost, that is something I may buy into. That said, Mr Robot does now give me a higher overall score if I uncheck the force caps box. This must've been what caused my discrepancy.

Thanks & Cheers,
-Zak
Edited by Zakariyas on 11/26/2012 2:43 PM PST
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90 Draenei Death Knight
14890
Zakariyas, you shouldn't ever be forcing those caps; being a handful of points over or under the Hit and Exp caps is almost always the most optimal setup. To have the exact amount for either is extremely rare, and just not realistically feasible in most cases.

For a quick example, say you had 2480 Hit, so 70 points under the cap. You have one item with 425 Mastery, with which you could forge off 170 Hit and go over that cap. Now, you're currently Masterfrost, so any Hit over the cap isn't entirely a waste as it'll go to a few more auto attacks landing, and subsequently maybe another Killing Machine proc or two. Going off the Elistest Jerks stats for Masterfrost (they're for T14, but it's what I have on hand, and it'll be close), Hit is valued at .672 up to the cap, .256 over the cap, and Mastery is valued at .462.

So lets say you forge that Mastery off for the extra Hit:

70 of the rating goes towards the special cap, being worth - 47.04
100 of the rating goes towards the white cap, being worth - 25.6
This adds up to a total of - 72.64

… or you can leave those 170 points in Mastery, being worth - 78.54

So you end up under the cap, but it's an overall DPS gain. The difference in reaching the cap showed in the example may be small, but it can be larger, and traditionally is for those who use 2H weapons as there is zero value for points over the 2H Hit cap. If I had used Expertise in this example the gap would have been much larger, as there is zero value in any points over this cap as well.

If you want an even larger example of this take a look at Warlocks and Shadow Priests: because the majority of their damage comes from DoTs, they simply don't rely on capping Hit as much. As tiers go on, you'll see them stray farther and farther from the cap as their DoTs deal more and more damage, and they rely less on their filler spells. (Well, except maybe Demonology, but I'm no expert.)
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90 Undead Death Knight
9055
Whenever I attempt to load my page on wowreforge, I get this...

"Failed to import character Muérte. The type initializer for 'BattleNetApi.JsonProfileMapper' threw an exception."

Anyone know why?
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90 Human Death Knight
4890
Whenever I attempt to load my page on wowreforge, I get this...

"Failed to import character Muérte. The type initializer for 'BattleNetApi.JsonProfileMapper' threw an exception."

Anyone know why?


Same here! Just tired it. I think it is to do with the funny letters in our names.

For example, mine is  and yours is é.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9635
He Zoopercat,

I checked +300str food in the settings and I set it to force hit/exp caps as I prefer this and am still not completely sold on losing hit/exp for haste, which is what the system seems to give me. Now if I could be at 7.49% hit/exp in exchange for mastery to boost my damage as Masterfrost, that is something I may buy into. That said, Mr Robot does now give me a higher overall score if I uncheck the force caps box. This must've been what caused my discrepancy.

Thanks & Cheers,
-Zak


See Manarri. Exactly as I was saying: People who find a problem with a reforge optimizer are usually "people who don't realize that sometimes not hitting a hit cap or an expertise cap is worth it because that extra 0.05 percent gain in hit cap may not be worth the loss in other stats or don't fully appreciate that enough of a secondary stat may be worth more than a primary stat in ways that can be difficult to calculate"

I had a very strong suspicion that is what was going on. Your explanation as to why he shouldn't do that probably didn't sink in either. Despite the very strong benefit of haste, he is apparently convinced that hitting the hit and expertise cap precisely is worth more than the haste he is passing up to accomplish that goal. For some people hitting the mythical caps exactly is such an enshrined goal in their mind that any reforge program that doesn't recommend that for them must be giving them strange and bugged results
Edited by Jeddin on 11/26/2012 4:23 PM PST
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15165
Personally I've seen Robot bug out in the past so I just avoid it. Also the fact that it had the Darkmoon Card as 13th for me when it's basically bis despite the nerf. I find robot means well but I can't truly trust it. At the moment though robot actually agrees with me for once and considers me optimal.

edited to add.

Never trust a program/website that puts agi trinkets above strength ones. Ever!
Edited by Tor on 11/26/2012 4:25 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
6820
Tor, Mr. Robot is glad that you think he means well (he does, he's very friendly and helpful). Anyway, I loaded up your character and I see the darkmoon trinket listed as #4. I also don't see any agi trinkets listed above strength. Are you using custom stat weights? If so, can you tell me what they are (or just link to a saved profile so I can see exactly what you're seeing)?

Here's what I see for you: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/6dc618d7-3bac-46c4-b3ca-31937f597beb
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90 Draenei Death Knight
14890
Jeddin, the difference is that I didn't open up with a condescending and insulting tone to the topic.

Tor, I don't think they nerfed Relic of Xuen. There was a tooltip that had been datamined, but it was one that was intended for Challenge Mode scaling. A few people got up in arms about it before a blue corrected them. Unless I missed something else after that, lol.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9635
Personally I've seen Robot bug out in the past so I just avoid it. Also the fact that it had the Darkmoon Card as 13th for me when it's basically bis despite the nerf. I find robot means well but I can't truly trust it. At the moment though robot actually agrees with me for once and considers me optimal.

edited to add.

Never trust a program/website that puts agi trinkets above strength ones. Ever!


I'm curious which agi trinket you are referring to. And never is a strong word. You don't think an agility trinket would be better even if it had a ridiculous OP proc that beat out the passive 956 strength and 3027 strength on a 45 second ICD? I agree that would have to be quite the monster proc on the agility trinket
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