Death Knights, Mary Sues, and Hero Classes

90 Worgen Priest
15015
I think they should at least start out at 1 like everyone else... or lock people out of the blood tree until they undergo some sort of trial to make sure they know how to tank.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8495
11/30/2012 08:23 PMPosted by Máirin
You did! This is Nanko's main. :P That conversation kinda made me start this topic, actually.


http://i.imgur.com/MSNyJ.jpg

I don't even remember what I said.
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90 Worgen Warrior
5930
My own 2 cents from a roleplayers perspective. I like dk's, their almost eternal fight for redemption. Or falling deeper into damnation. It's awesome! But people tend to overdue some of it, they are at the Cathedral alot, or always killing. If people realized that as DK's light screws them over that'd be great. Or the people that rp as super lonely/violent rps not hang out at the recluse learn that they shouldnt be there due to their own rp.. Or most of all the people that take an excuse at being a DK to be damn near indestructable and do what ever they want.

As for what they can change Lore wise.. I dunno change the starter for them to be up with MOP and have the DK's weakened by the loss of the initial LK? That since the dramatic loss of scourge and master have maybe weakened them in some way.

-From your friendly local grumpy worgen.. Stay walkup-y my friends.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
9745
11/30/2012 04:07 PMPosted by Máirin
What do you like about the lore, playstyle, requirements, anything?


Grim-dark roleplay and wargear, the ability to make healers cry, Death Grip.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7110
I love this class but, if you know the lore behind it, it's very difficult to RP fairly (part of why I crippled mine).

A death knight is, at its base and completely naked, an undead. This means that a death knight is numb to most physical pain, it takes less damage from Shadow magic, it is immortal, it is very difficult for it to feel positive emotions like pity and remorse, it can survive without many of its formerly-vital organs, it never needs to eat, it never needs to sleep, it never tires, and it can stitch replacements for lost limbs to its body.

Additionally, it's been stated (back on the original Wrath of the Lich King website) that death knights are physically stronger, faster, and more agile thant in life due to the power that animates them (and we can see this in the Presences they take).

Death knights also have runes inscribed upon them. Even unarmed, a death knight can shoot off a Howling Blast or Blood Boil. For a while, we had Hungering Cold which purged the ground around the death knight of all heat. They also have an addiction to causing pain, which dampens their feelings of remorse even further. Death knights apparently only require an available corpse to make a minion

Then you add Saronite armour. We're not sure to what extent a piece of unrefined Saronite ore matches up to plate armour forged from it but we do know its properties. Saronite can't be affected by Nature magic and though Light can harm a death knight wearing Saronite, some of it also gets reflected back to damage the caster. Saronite is tougher than Arcanite and 25% the weight of an equivalent amount of steel. Also, Saronite sends the living insane after prolonged exposure. Death knights are immune to this effect.

Then there's the rune weapon. Any weapon a death knight can wield can be made into a rune weapon. Rune weapons allow death knights to channel the power of those runes inscribed on them and also store runic power, allowing them to do even more damage with techniques like Death Coil and Frost Strike. Aside from that, the rune inscribed on the rune weapon also gives it special properties ranging from increasing the damage done by their frost to boosting their physical strength.

Altogether, death knights are a bit over-powered.

11/30/2012 09:35 PMPosted by Araiae
Except maybe the fact that I can't have anything other than a slightly rotted face as a blood elf.


Think outside the box, sister. Don't be afraid to lose an arm or leg, you can always stitch on a new one!
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
14820
12/01/2012 09:44 AMPosted by Mebahiah
Except maybe the fact that I can't have anything other than a slightly rotted face as a blood elf.


Think outside the box, sister. Don't be afraid to lose an arm or leg, you can always stitch on a new one!


on character customization

why can't i look somewhat more dead

i suppose i could have rolled a forsaken, but this character's supposed to be my belf paladin's sister, so that didn't make much sense
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90 Tauren Paladin
8495
12/01/2012 09:44 AMPosted by Mebahiah
I love this class but, if you know the lore behind it, it's very difficult to RP fairly (part of why I crippled mine).


When you put it into terms like that I start to see why roleplaying one becomes incredibly difficult.
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12/01/2012 10:08 AMPosted by Araiae
why can't i look somewhat more dead

Wait.
Wait, wait, wait.

A blood elf...that wants to look more dead and less beautiful and pretty and Mary Sue-ish?

...I LOVE YOU.

12/01/2012 03:58 PMPosted by Retrimootion
I love this class but, if you know the lore behind it, it's very difficult to RP fairly (part of why I crippled mine).


When you put it into terms like that I start to see why roleplaying one becomes incredibly difficult.

This is the problem I had with making a DK. I usually try to make my characters as a sort of antithesis to common Sueisms, such as making a character that is actually fat, or completely socially inept.

My DK was a complete wimp, afraid of even other Death Knights. She could only carry her armor and sword with a pseudo-Death Grip spell, and generally disliked fighting.

...But then I learned this was lore-breaking. Arthas wouldn't rez someone so weak, the undeath put upon Death Knights makes them naturally stronger and ore agile, and most Night Elf DKs would rather kill themselves for being an affront to Elune, and averting that and "being strong" in that regard, in my opinion, would just add a few more Mary Sue points. >.<
Edited by Máirin on 12/1/2012 4:02 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
9280
12/01/2012 03:58 PMPosted by Retrimootion
I love this class but, if you know the lore behind it, it's very difficult to RP fairly (part of why I crippled mine).


When you put it into terms like that I start to see why roleplaying one becomes incredibly difficult.


It is. They are very special characters.

Death knights can't be bullied or intimidated. They have seem life (or unlife) worst. Many of them were forced to kill loved ones and old friends. Being threatened with death or destruction would hold absolutely no grounds against a death knight. They don't have fears, and have a severe difficulty of feeling positive emotions (happiness, love, compassion, etc). Their willpower is nothing short than tremendous and unwavering, considering they managed to break from from LK own mind control.

You gotta be very careful to not go into god modding grounds.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
7720
My DK was a complete wimp, afraid of even other Death Knights. She could only carry her armor and sword with a pseudo-Death Grip spell, and generally disliked fighting.

...But then I learned this was lore-breaking. Arthas wouldn't rez someone so weak, the undeath put upon Death Knights makes them naturally stronger and ore agile, and most Night Elf DKs would rather kill themselves for being an affront to Elune, and averting that and "being strong" in that regard, in my opinion, would just add a few more Mary Sue points. >.<


I had a somewhat similar character. He was about half a DK, at best. I got around that issue by cheating and claiming his creation was an accident. Long story. But the lack of intentionality helped.
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My DK was a complete wimp, afraid of even other Death Knights. She could only carry her armor and sword with a pseudo-Death Grip spell, and generally disliked fighting.

...But then I learned this was lore-breaking. Arthas wouldn't rez someone so weak, the undeath put upon Death Knights makes them naturally stronger and ore agile, and most Night Elf DKs would rather kill themselves for being an affront to Elune, and averting that and "being strong" in that regard, in my opinion, would just add a few more Mary Sue points. >.<


I had a somewhat similar character. He was about half a DK, at best. I got around that issue by cheating and claiming his creation was an accident. Long story. But the lack of intentionality helped.

Haha, maybe. I probably could make up some sort of excuse for her that's really convoluted, but if it's played for laughs and there to justify the character avoiding being a Mary Sue, it might work. Like being mass-rez'd from an entire town that was razed just a few days before the DKs broke away from the Scourge so Arthas couldn't weed out the weak ones? *strokes invisible beard*
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90 Goblin Priest
10245
My newest DK, a goblin, is kinda a horribly fail DK. I got the idea after she (no lie) DIED THREE TIMES IN A ROW at the Battle at Light's Hope.

I mean, come on. I never had a DK die there before and I have rolled quite a few to try and get a concept to stick!

My excuse is that she has a lot of know-how and she was actually very muscled and looked like a warrior, as she was a expert tank/shredder builder for goblins! She was juuuuust competent enough to not get killed by the Lich King before the battle happened, so she kinda lucked out.

I mean, she has power, oh yeah. She just isn't very good at *using* it. Hey, it's not her fault! Sher never had to wield more than a bazooka before! These sword things are a major step back in technology.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
14820
Oh wait, I knew I remembered the OP.
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I think it's unfair to group Mary Sue in the title personally. I like Death Knights, I do. The story for Acherus and the Ebon Blade is downright thrilling, and it's not at all a special singled out scenario.

They were in mass production. Any corpse, as long as it was well preserved. Empowered with dark magic, and given a need to inflict pain and suffering. Razuvious made them duel and execute one another just for the right to sate that need on the living. Death Knights aren't powerful because of their enchantments, or their Runesword. It's because Acherus was it's own circle of hell, and only one in ten raised actually survived and earned their Saronite armor.

Writing one isn't an excuse for powerplaying, powerful though they are. It's about taking any character, any personality, and trying to figure out how they would deal with that. It's a profound story, and an extraordinary circumstance. I truly respect people who present it well.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
6295
To this day, I still think DKs have no reason to be admitted to the Alliance. They were included in the game to fit the theme of the expansion first and the lore second. I have a hard time believing Alliance nations accepting the undead into their ranks when entire nations were wiped out by the undead.
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90 Undead Death Knight
15070
I really don't mind the Class, but what can I say, since Claudel here is my main.
/cooldowns and Deathstrike 'I AM BOOLITPROOF'

Anyways, lorewise, I enjoy Death knights, because they were, essentially, raised to be Canon fodder. So it wouldn't be too far fetched to have imperfect DK's, with the emotional issues and such like that.

I do get kind of annoyed when I see a level 58-60 DK waltzing around claiming to be a san'layn, or whatever. Rustles my jimmies, you know?
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I would have liked to have seen a quest chain in which human (and perhaps BE) paladins could have progressed through level 57 and ended in the Eastern Plaguelands. Upon reaching the end the character would make a choice to stay a paladin or "succumb" to a nasty death and eventual rising as a DK.

The whole "Here's your level 58 Hero class toon" seems to be a bit lazy on Blizz's part.

Other than that, yeah, there's more things wrong with a small group of players than there is with the class as a whole.
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I would have liked to have seen a quest chain in which human (and perhaps BE) paladins could have progressed through level 57 and ended in the Eastern Plaguelands. Upon reaching the end the character would make a choice to stay a paladin or "succumb" to a nasty death and eventual rising as a DK.

The whole "Here's your level 58 Hero class toon" seems to be a bit lazy on Blizz's part.

Other than that, yeah, there's more things wrong with a small group of players than there is with the class as a whole.

I actually did suggest something similar in the aforementioned Trade Chat discussion Horde-side.

Death Knights start as a paladin/warrior/soldier/something in a 1-12ish starting zone, taking place before WotLK. They play the same as a DK, but with a sort of reskin of their abilities, making them less death-themed. Then, at 55, they do a quest to become a DK.

Rough idea, but that could work. A Death Knight at level 1 doesn't make sense, yeah, but immediately starting them at 55 isn't a fair fix, IMO.
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90 Goblin Shaman
10270
You need a 55 to make a DK in the first place. I think alot of the people forget this. Hero classes are pretty much supposed to be lore heavy starting classes who have a semi-set storyline to go through, hence the whole "Hero" thing.
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