Death Knights, Mary Sues, and Hero Classes

90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9150
Imagine how stupid it would look to have a lvl 1 DEATH KNIGHT trotting around Elwynn killing boars.

I do think the cap on dks per realm should be removed, though.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
12050
I love Death Knights, I think if they had started at level 1 it would have been amazing but also way too hardcore for this game and also likely big budget content to produce.

They would not be level 1 DKs in this fantasy though, they'd be other classes in a phase of old Azeroth. Maybe even multiple phases to choose from related to the Wars and Arthas lore. You would not become a DK until after an epic battle in the mid to the late 50's and the DK zone would last until 68. You would skip TBC content entirely and go straight to Northrend to level.

It would have required near Cata-level reworkings of the old world but I think it would have been amazing if they could have done it.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7185
What many players don't understand about Death Knights is the fact that they are dead and no magic is going to make them not dead. I also see a lot of Death Knights as pissed off and angry at everyone but the truth of the matter is a lot of them should be feeling remorse and feel that they should be trying to atone for their crimes when they were under the Lich King's mind control.

I think that Death Knights are very much former paragons of good trying to redeem themselves and show the world that they aren't slaves anymore.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7190


Think outside the box, sister. Don't be afraid to lose an arm or leg, you can always stitch on a new one!


on character customization

why can't i look somewhat more dead

i suppose i could have rolled a forsaken, but this character's supposed to be my belf paladin's sister, so that didn't make much sense


I know this feeling.

most Night Elf DKs would rather kill themselves for being an affront to Elune, and averting that and "being strong" in that regard, in my opinion, would just add a few more Mary Sue points. >.<


This is untrue and it's because of the "Scourge would have killed them" point. Same reason draenei DKs continue to exist. They were specifically chosen because they had the fortitude to remain in undeath. Any nelf or draenei DK is probably more concerned with survival and purpose than being an abomination.
Edited by Mebahiah on 12/2/2012 12:04 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
8470
My first and biggest issue as a DK rper is lore. Particularly, the lore on becoming one. There are several ways to become one, such has been stated in many canonized sources and ma/patrons of those ways are displayed in the game as npcs. What is lacking, I feel, are these recognized and acknowledged sources being mentioned in game. To find out those ways, you have to look in other sources of cannon compilation like Wowpedia or wowwiki*.

My next issue would be the stereotype. I have been told I rp a death knight very well, sadly, I must always jump hurdles and breach walls laid out before me by those death knights that have tainted the class with their foul menagerie of bad rp. Mostly in the form of extremes that slap rationality in the face! Dk but not a dks, pregnant dks, off the rocker evil dks, 'I've got my derp ghoul out and laws do not apply to me in this city' dks, no pain you cannot touch me over 9000 rofl stomping dks, hey look another dreadlord dk, these are not the entirety of the dk roleplayer community. Many of us are competent, good, and dare I say, phenomenal, roleplayers. Often times, you can find us walking on the street casually while trying to avoid the cathedral proper unless under duress, and no, we do not bite.

Finally, the mentality of, "You must be x in order to be y." This might work in the lovely little jingle to learn the abc's. But the only word I can instantly think of that this applies to is 'xylophone'. In the normal language that I speak, that being English, I find that the usage of that word is very limited. So then, with the all of the other 24 letters, can we not make other words? Does x and y -have- to be in that order? No, I do not think so. I think you can mix the letters up as long as the product makes since and fits into the accepted constitution of speech and writing that is grammar. So to, I feel, should be allowed to dk lore.

For example, a night elf mage can be a highborne returned to us, or a night elf learning the arcane, both are accepted and allowed in lore while being accepted by the populace. Yet, a dk that is not x is wrong? A human paladin can be both, a silver hand member and an ex-scarlet hailing from Stratholm who lived and served in Stromgarde, but a dk that was not an argent must be dismissed and black listed? I know this reads counter to my second note but the argument is much like the alphabet. X and y are part of 26 letters that make up an entire language. The letters provide order and structure that turns into the entirety of the worlds most dominant language. Lore, like the alphabet, is there to set up and build upon. By staying in the boundaries while expounding on the options, stories and meaningful roleplay can happen. So, if you see a good dk roleplayer in your wanderings, give them a hug. Ic, OOC, up to you.

*It might be abandoned, but there still is some good information there.
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12/01/2012 10:08 PMPosted by Zieto
You need a 55 to make a DK in the first place. I think alot of the people forget this. Hero classes are pretty much supposed to be lore heavy starting classes who have a semi-set storyline to go through, hence the whole "Hero" thing.

True, but it still doesn't, in my personal opinion, justify letting a class start off at 55. Why not let Paladins do that? They're pretty lore-heavy, strong fighters in history, etc. Or Druids. A druid can really train a lot and get -really- strong.

But maybe that's a bad example. It's less "If DKs can start at 55, so should X class!" and more "If nobody else starts at 55, then neither should DKs!"

Again, imo. :P That's the entire point of the threat. My opinion. Your opinion. That guy's opinion, etc.

<snip, lotsa words by Shinar!>

Well, yeah, there's plenty of DKs that downplay their strengths and are actually pretty good RPers. But a very large number of them, much larger than, say, the percentage of those that RP another class. I've met many level 58 DKs fresh out of Acherus in the armor everyone ends up with, waltzing straight into a tavern after talking with the king. The class' backstory and the whole idea of an undead badass who kicks names and takes asses sounds appealing to those that don't know how to avoid Mary Sueisms, or those that are new to RPing in general. It sounds cool (and it is), so people naturally want to be like that guy.

It's also got something to do with the level, as well, imo. I have a lot of respect for people that are in the 60s-89. It means they (probably) levelled their toon from scratch here, rather than having a character for a while, deciding, on a whim, to transfer their toon to an RP server to try to RP for the first time. A level 58 DK is no different than a level 12 worgen, or a level 1 human. You just made your character, you haven't RP'd them for a decent amount of time and gotten to know them, and, in general, you don't -know- your character.

So, yeah, I agree with what you're saying, but there still -are- a lot of bad DK RPers. :P
Edited by Máirin on 12/2/2012 9:47 PM PST
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12/02/2012 09:34 PMPosted by Máirin
True, but it still doesn't, in my personal opinion, justify letting a class start off at 55.


I always felt that DKs started out at 55 because the player only starts playing that character at that point. Since that makes no sense, I'll try to explain:

A death knight was raised from death, obviously. But that means that he/she had a life before then, possibly as a warrior, a paladin, a priest, or really any other class. Therefore, we start playing them at 55 because they 'leveled' all those other levels as a different 'class' before they died and were made a Death Knight.

Side note: Anyone know if there's a rule for capitalizing Death Knight or not?
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12/02/2012 09:45 PMPosted by Aviala
True, but it still doesn't, in my personal opinion, justify letting a class start off at 55.


I always felt that DKs started out at 55 because the player only starts playing that character at that point. Since that makes no sense, I'll try to explain:

A death knight was raised from death, obviously. But that means that he/she had a life before then, possibly as a warrior, a paladin, a priest, or really any other class. Therefore, we start playing them at 55 because they 'leveled' all those other levels as a different 'class' before they died and were made a Death Knight.

Side note: Anyone know if there's a rule for capitalizing Death Knight or not?

Yes, from a lore standpoint, it makes perfect sense. But what about non-Pandaren monks? They couldn't have learned the ways of the monk before the Pandaren showed up. Many of them are just learning them in adulthood, or maybe the early 40s (for a human). They had a life before them, as well, but they start at 1 as well.

It -would-, indeed, seem weird to see a level 1 DK doing menial tasks because they used to be Scourge warriors that struck fear into the hearts of their enemies! But, from a gameplay standpoint, it does seem a little...lazy, perhaps? I can't quite think of the right word, but...it kind of fits. It's like, "I want a new character, but I don't like the old zones/I don't feel like being a lowbie. I'll make a Death Knight instead!"

Don't crucify me, I just...can't think of a good word for it! >.< /cower
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90 Troll Druid
8765
12/02/2012 09:58 PMPosted by Máirin


I always felt that DKs started out at 55 because the player only starts playing that character at that point. Since that makes no sense, I'll try to explain:

A death knight was raised from death, obviously. But that means that he/she had a life before then, possibly as a warrior, a paladin, a priest, or really any other class. Therefore, we start playing them at 55 because they 'leveled' all those other levels as a different 'class' before they died and were made a Death Knight.

Side note: Anyone know if there's a rule for capitalizing Death Knight or not?

Yes, from a lore standpoint, it makes perfect sense. But what about non-Pandaren monks? They couldn't have learned the ways of the monk before the Pandaren showed up. Many of them are just learning them in adulthood, or maybe the early 40s (for a human). They had a life before them, as well, but they start at 1 as well.

It -would-, indeed, seem weird to see a level 1 DK doing menial tasks because they used to be Scourge warriors that struck fear into the hearts of their enemies! But, from a gameplay standpoint, it does seem a little...lazy, perhaps? I can't quite think of the right word, but...it kind of fits. It's like, "I want a new character, but I don't like the old zones/I don't feel like being a lowbie. I'll make a Death Knight instead!"

Don't crucify me, I just...can't think of a good word for it! >.< /cower

So? What's done is done and I don't think they should go back on this, I would rather them focus on things that actually matter.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11470
Yes, from a lore standpoint, it makes perfect sense. But what about non-Pandaren monks? They couldn't have learned the ways of the monk before the Pandaren showed up. Many of them are just learning them in adulthood, or maybe the early 40s (for a human). They had a life before them, as well, but they start at 1 as well.

It -would-, indeed, seem weird to see a level 1 DK doing menial tasks because they used to be Scourge warriors that struck fear into the hearts of their enemies! But, from a gameplay standpoint, it does seem a little...lazy, perhaps? I can't quite think of the right word, but...it kind of fits. It's like, "I want a new character, but I don't like the old zones/I don't feel like being a lowbie. I'll make a Death Knight instead!"

Don't crucify me, I just...can't think of a good word for it! >.< /cower


I kinda see what you mean and see what the others mean. It would be nice to start another class at level 55.
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I kinda see what you mean and see what the others mean. It would be nice to start another class at level 55.

Well, yes, but giving players free reign over 55 classes, like being able to fill a server with 11 level 55 druids is...a bit excessive. :P Part of the experience, imo, is levelling. Which can actually be quite fun, in addition to getting to learn a class. It's like juggling. You start by just tossing a ball. Simple. Then they toss in a second ball. Then a third. By level 90, you're jumping on one leg, juggling five balls, and cooking bacon while singing in Spanish.

But perhaps a rare, hard to get item that allows you to start a character at 55? That might work...But that would lead to farming, and maybe even selling them on the Auction House, if they're not soulbound...Might sour the experience.

But, yeah, I know that feel, when you -want- to play in, say, Northrend or Hyjal (not Outland, that's for sure! *rimshot*) but don't have a toon in that level. Or you just want a toon with a rotation that's more than the level 30 "spam this spell as much as possible and hit this spell every now and then". Giving people free reign over that and reaching 90 won't feel as special. (Or 85, if you're in my boat, without Mists. :c)
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90 Orc Death Knight
7525
I don't roleplay as a former scourge deathknight, since I've never really been into that lore. Gurth here is sorta a mix of legion/old Horde deathknight/ bastard that won't just die. A deathknight however, is simply the perfect archetype for a villain. You are a wretched undead mess of a monster! I love them for that.

From a gameplay standpoint, I love how they start at 55. It's the whole reason I was able to have the cult's storyline, because it allowed me to be in the game at an acceptable level fromt he start. Plus I really, REALLY hate leveling from level 1. Fun starter zone, and the look and style of the archetype is simply badass.

Not being able to make another one (without transferring) on the same server seems like an archaic mechanic at this point.
Edited by Gurthoon on 12/2/2012 10:19 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
11470
12/02/2012 10:10 PMPosted by Máirin
Well, yes, but giving players free reign over 55 classes, like being able to fill a server with 11 level 55 druids is...a bit excessive. :P Part of the experience, imo, is levelling. Which can actually be quite fun, in addition to getting to learn a class. It's like juggling. You start by just tossing a ball. Simple. Then they toss in a second ball. Then a third. By level 90, you're jumping on one leg, juggling five balls, and cooking bacon while singing in Spanish.


That... was a very intresting analogy, lol.

12/02/2012 10:10 PMPosted by Máirin
But, yeah, I know that feel, when you -want- to play in, say, Northrend or Hyjal (not Outland, that's for sure! *rimshot*) but don't have a toon in that level. Or you just want a toon with a rotation that's more than the level 30 "spam this spell as much as possible and hit this spell every now and then". Giving people free reign over that and reaching 90 won't feel as special. (Or 85, if you're in my boat, without Mists. :c)


I find Outland to be boring myself. I wish they would update the content on those levels.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11470
12/02/2012 10:19 PMPosted by Gurthoon
Not being able to make another one (without transferring) on the same server seems like an archaic mechanic at this point.


^
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90 Goblin Shaman
10205
It made sense with Death Knights because they introduced the setting of WotLK AND hero classes to WoW. Death Knights had a big role in the history of Warcraft even prior to WoW, and the main villain in WotLK was a classic, and indeed the paragon of the class. The DK starter area was supposed to give you an idea of how the entire fallen hero theme went.

Edit: Also remember prior to Cataclysm DKs were the only class/race with a phased starting area that cut you off from the rest of the world, so it was a test of that sort of setup that was implemented later to varying degrees of success with Worgen/Goblins/Pandarens as well.

They were also test run for not just hero classes, but having multiple specs doing the same things differently (dps and tanking as blood/frost/unholy). Now obviously the 2nd half didn't go through, but the high level story driven class did pan out well. Death Knights were a trial run of the *idea* of hero classes, and something Blizz may or may not do again in the future.

Also non-panderan monks pre-MoP were just martial hand to hand combatants, similar to the scarlet NPCs in old Stratholme or say the belf ones in Outlands raids. There's a difference between punching people really well and channeling chi in this case.
Edited by Zieto on 12/2/2012 10:24 PM PST
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It made sense with Death Knights because they introduced the setting of WotLK AND hero classes to WoW. Death Knights had a big role in the history of Warcraft even prior to WoW, and the main villain in WotLK was a classic, and indeed the paragon of the class. The DK starter area was supposed to give you an idea of how the entire fallen hero theme went.

Edit: Also remember prior to Cataclysm DKs were the only class/race with a phased starting area that cut you off from the rest of the world, so it was a test of that sort of setup that was implemented later to varying degrees of success with Worgen/Goblins/Pandarens as well.

They were also test run for not just hero classes, but having multiple specs doing the same things differently (dps and tanking as blood/frost/unholy). Now obviously the 2nd half didn't go through, but the high level story driven class did pan out well. Death Knights were a trial run of the *idea* of hero classes, and something Blizz may or may not do again in the future.

Also non-panderan monks pre-MoP were just martial hand to hand combatants, similar to the scarlet NPCs in old Stratholme or say the belf ones in Outlands raids. There's a difference between punching people really well and channeling chi in this case.

So DKs were a test of many things at once, such as dual role trees, hero classes, instanced starting zones, and other things. Okay, I get it, but we removed the dual role trees because they didn't work, right? Why not demote DKs to non-hero classes, since hero classes have been considered a failure by many? Blizz hasn't really been known to adhere to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. They change things around until they're prefect. Or as perfect as it can get. Remember people complaining about the Feral tree split?

And the monk classes are specifically the Pandaren-style monk, not the "punching people really well" type that the Scarlet Monastery has. :P I read this somewhere, can't quite recall. I suppose you -could- RP your character as the "punching people really well" monk, though...(Just not as a Scarlet. :P) EDIT: To clarify, the "punching people well" and the Pandaren monks are two totally different things. The only thing they really share is the name "monk". The "punching people well" monks are more akin to warriors that use their fists, imo.
Edited by Máirin on 12/3/2012 6:09 PM PST
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90 Goblin Shaman
10205
Hero classes didn't fail though. Many people loved their story/lore in the starting area, nothing game breaking happened with the class being 55 past the usual beginning speed bumps, and they were a great introduction to the xpac as a whole. They haven't made more yet because making a hero class work needs the right expansion. In this case, Panda doesn't = monk for MoP, which I think alot of people forget.

I honestly don't see why you think they failed o_-
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90 Pandaren Priest
13650
12/03/2012 06:02 PMPosted by Máirin
Why not demote DKs to non-hero classes, since hero classes have been considered a failure by many?


By who, just you?

Death knights are an extremely popular class and, other than the "OP/player is a nub" stereotype, many people enjoy and like them.

Hunter players are accused of being played by idiots a lot, but that doesn't mean hunters are a failure.
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12/03/2012 06:36 PMPosted by Zieto
I honestly don't see why you think they failed o_-

12/03/2012 08:58 PMPosted by Raisheal
By who, just you?

Really, now? I've actually seen quite a few people say that, at the very least, they shouldn't have started at level 55. xP
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90 Pandaren Priest
13650
I think it would be honestly ridiculous to start death knights at level 1 and I've yet to see anyone say they'd support level one death knights.

Edit:

Also, can I ask just what is it you have against death knights? Considering this is the second topic you've made talking about how they're apparently bad or whatever.
Edited by Raisheal on 12/4/2012 12:01 AM PST
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