Combustion/CM overnerfs. Raidbots confirmed!

90 Human Death Knight
13165
12/02/2012 11:13 AMPosted by Koviko
His point was that every other class has been through this. I went through 4.0.6, where I had to play a spec I hated, or even just tanked. What happened to mages is nothing new to everyone else, just mages. Yes, you might have to reforge, regem and start over.

What classes have had to start over like this? What classes have geared for one spec only to have their entire class flip-flopped on it's head? Fire is Crit > Haste > Mastery. Arcane is Mastery > Haste > Crit. They are literally opposite and this far into progression, this is not easily overcame. We are being told that all of our gearing from launch until now has been incorrect and Blizz intended for us to be doing the exact opposite of what we've been doing.


As I said earlier, when 4.0.6 came out, unholy was gutted so extremely, it not only was the worst spec, but the worst spec by a good 3k dps in cata. My two options were frost, which required different reforges and, if I wanted to max dps, weapons and gems, or blood, which required going from DPS to tank. Whole new ballgame.

I don't know the details but I am sure a hunter could come in here telling you how they have been flip-flopping between the specs over time like a republican presidential candidate.

How many times has ret gone from good, to op, to trash?

Again, nerfs suck. Trust me I know. Knowing blizzard fire will get a hotfix mini-buff next week, but don't be suprised if fire is down for a few patches. Welcome to the club.
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90 Worgen Warlock
11935
Not gonna lie here. I was kinda disgruntled seeing such a significant DPS upgrade for a class that's not mine (who doesn't?) but to hit someone with a nerf that hard...That doesn't just screw the class, it screws the raid.
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100 Human Mage
10190
This nerf is pretty bad, I think our AoE in certain situations was a little too strong and expected some form of combustion nerf; the critical mass change however is too strong and kills the spec overall. I lost about 5-6% crit overall and it's much more difficult to get a decent combustion going. ~485 iLevel
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I understand Blizzard's viewpoint, even though I disagree with it. Critical mass needed a change, or crit rating would start to get ludicrous in later tiers, pushing fire even further upwards.

I don't agree with them doing it now, or in a hot fix for that matter, I would rather have seen the combustion nerf and then minor adjustments to critical mass in every major content patch.

The issue at hand here isn't whether fire will ever become optimal again, it probably will. The issue was how dramatic of a change this was, to occur over night with no notice, mid week.

Also fixing critical mass when crit levels are still so low just seems like salt on the wound. Even if fire still comes out playable, it'll be a major hit in fun with less crit.
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Just did some number crunching, http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s2ij9gw2ga5kd1lu/sum/damageDone/?s=4115&e=4511 is the fight in question. Turns out I lose almost 9% crit from the CM nerf, and using that number along with the 50% combustion nerf I got these values:

fireball adjusted: 8645917
pyroblast adjusted: 8064626 (also happens 9% less frequently due to it requiring a crit to occur)
combustion adjusted: 2942835 (not perfect because it should be even lower, just didn't do all the math required, just the 50% nerf)
ignite adjusted: 3886623 (reduced it by 12%, an arbitrary number admittedly due to lack of idea how to get the proper number, although logic would put it worse or possibly very close than 12% lower)
total damage adjusted: 29363278

That calculates to 74,715 dps, or a 26.8% dps loss. Note this isn't entirely accurate, as it may be lower, or possibly higher by 1 or 2%. But still, that is unacceptable. I am now inches away from being beat by our tank.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8690
Or you could just go arcane and be top again? zz
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91 Human Mage
17590
12/02/2012 12:39 PMPosted by Neyzio
Or you could just go arcane and be top again? zz

With all my awesome mastery gear? Nobody who's made this argument has demonstrated any understanding of the spec or the nerf.

I play fire because I like fire. But now that I can spend an entire TW spamming FB and refreshing LB (yes, this happened Friday) it's no fun anymore. Why keep the spec around if you're going to take away the dps and the fun?

GC tweeted that they'll look at numbers in a week, but I'm worried there will be such a flight from fire that they won't have a good sample size. Just hotfix CM back so the spec is fun and put Combustion at 66% so our one dps cooldown is worth paying attention to.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
12/02/2012 01:12 PMPosted by Myrazela
GC tweeted that they'll look at numbers in a week, but I'm worried there will be such a flight from fire that they won't have a good sample size. Just hotfix CM back so the spec is fun and put Combustion at 66% so our one dps cooldown is worth paying attention to.


Remember that Blizzard isn't limited to looking at data from the limited, self-selected sample that posts public parses. They can look at data from every raid on every server if they so desire. Their sample sizes will be considerably larger than what we have available.
________________________________________________
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
10620
This nerf came in on Friday. Most raiding was done by then, especially on the high end.

We won't know the real picture until after the reset on Tuesday. Give it a full week, with results not diluted by pre nerf parses.

The properly scientific attitude here would be to wait for more data. It's much too soon to conclude fire is totally fine or or totally borked, although I suspect the latter is the case.


I like your style!!! Thumbs up for agreement!

It's simming as about a 12% decrease, which looks a lot more severe than was needed to me. I think I might have tried reducing critical mass to 1.35 instead of 1.25, and Combustion to 0.75 instead of 0.5 of Ignite tick damage.

That said, GC tweets made it clear they're watching the numbers; if Fire has taken a nose dive when they see next week's numbers, I imagine we'll see further adjustments. Declaring the spec deceased isn't really productive or realistic. Next week's raid stats may show it to be wounded, but if so, it can be patched up.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium

This is an unrealistic viewpoint for us to take. My raid group struggles enough with me playing at the absolute highest level that I can. We are still trying to progress and I can't simply "wait and see what happens" when we are still in progression. It is my duty to take action and play what is best, not sit back and hope Blizz hands me more deeps.

They didn't just nerf Fire. They just nerfed my raid groups progression. They just nerfed our ability to beat enrage timers. We are still trying to beat Garalon right now and my cleave made up a significant amount of our DPS. We have nearly zero chance to down that fight, this week, because of this nerf. We don't have the luxury for magically finding skilled rogues and warriors to carry us to victory. We are all we've got and now we're missing part of it.


I honestly feel, and I think a lot of us would, that your raid group's progression is far too focused on one person for it to be successful. I'm positive you have another member in the raid group, perhaps always pulling bottom numbers, to reroll as fire mage. If not, and this is truly the case, recruit a fire mage and bench your lowest performer in favor of more DPS. But...essentially that is what Blizzard is trying to avoid by nerfing fire. So really, Catch-22. I mean, if you're not willing to bench the "low" class, you're just hurting your own progression, assuming the game isn't balanced. Yeah, it's not a popular answer, but it's the right answer.

[quote][quote]Clipped Lhivera (usually good about post limits and the reasons :D)

For the record, while SimC can play with superhuman reflexes, by default it uses a 500ms reaction time. In other words, if a proc happens, the sim will not react to that proc unless 500ms have elapsed. The reaction time is configurable, and latency is also simulated (which can affect the reaction time calculations since it can delay client notification of events).
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium


I agree completely, although people will use SimC numbers as much, or more, than WoL's numbers to prove a point, and due to that, I've found it's better to use it as a frame of reference than a be-all-to-end-all, as the OP suggests. SimC is far more variable than WoL just because of the control any user has over the many aspects that directly affect the outcome, where WoL or Raidbots it's purely who you decide to sample.

I'm not convinced the nerf was too harsh. I think it puts Fire squarely in balance range, middle of the pack. So far, the data doesn't support that either, and Fire is still far ahead. Still, all I'm advocating is a wait-and-see stance, and give it at least a week to work itself out so you have concrete data to support your position. Simming has a lot of problems, especially right after a nerf, and forming a thread based on SimC is the best way I know to get easily disregarded. If it plays out as you describe in the OP, I'll be there right along with you to get changes at least partially reverted.

And I fully understand I have no standing because I rolled a lock this expansion over Ret Paladin :D. After all, I blow up Aff locks as Destro, but you'll never see that simmed either.
Edited by Belledanna on 12/2/2012 2:56 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
6075
Sucks to be in the bottom of the board? It might of been an overnerf and might mess up all your gemming/reforging when switching to another spec but I agree 100% with the hotfix. Boomkins are living a terrible life for all MoP and previous expansions being lowest dps on the board with some clunky mechanics and a not so great AoE.

You can switch to another spec and start competing for the top of the boards again but a chicken can't really switch specs until getting a complete new set of gear for feral. Fire mages were pulling some crazy high dps and once we proceed further into tier, mages crit will scale even better and they'd have no more competition.

oh no, you dropped 20% of your overall dps!! better cancel my sub. Until they fix the other dps specs, let fire feel some pain.


Boomkins have three specs they can go to and have a good raid cooldown?
They have a viable healing, dps (feral) and tanking spec.

Mages have no raid cooldowns, we have currently no really viable specs (at my gear level anyway) and frankly, if we can't pump out decent DPS whats the point of bringing a mage?

I honestly feel, and I think a lot of us would, that your raid group's progression is far too focused on one person for it to be successful. I'm positive you have another member in the raid group, perhaps always pulling bottom numbers, to reroll as fire mage. If not, and this is truly the case, recruit a fire mage and bench your lowest performer in favor of more DPS. But...essentially that is what Blizzard is trying to avoid by nerfing fire. So really, Catch-22. I mean, if you're not willing to bench the "low" class, you're just hurting your own progression, assuming the game isn't balanced. Yeah, it's not a popular answer, but it's the right answer.

So instead of benching somebody for a fire mage, you bench the fire mage for somebody else?
Edited by Warping on 12/2/2012 3:08 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11835
So in heroics today, I went from 75 k to 85 k depending on fights and RNG to 55 to 65 k. No, that's not nerfing us bad at all, is it? Went from 218 k high end crits to pryos to 187 high end crits. No that's not over nerfing us at all, is it? My normal crits went from 187 to 157. :/ And that's when I could get a crit which wasn't often, it was like when I was a fresh 90 praying for a crit. And don't get me started on those pathetic ignites and combustions.

Can't wait to see Tuesdays raid.

12/02/2012 03:17 PMPosted by Belledanna
No, that's not right either.


Well, you will see that. Many of us can't scramble around and get gear to be able to swap specs due to the very different stat priorities. I know I most likely will till I can re-gear.
Edited by Kaeilthas on 12/2/2012 3:19 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
10620
12/02/2012 03:06 PMPosted by Warping
So instead of benching somebody for a fire mage, you bench the fire mage for somebody else?


No, that's not right either. Mages should compete with every other DPS class equally. That's the goal. Right now, Fire was insanely high, and very few people honestly dispute that. If Arcane and Frost are still top tier, as simmed, they should be brought down as well. But, I'll wait on more data before seeing that.

And yes, Aff should be nerfed.
So in heroics today, I went from 75 k to 85 k depending on fights and RNG to 55 to 65 k. No, that's not nerfing us bad at all, is it? Went from 218 k high end crits to pryos to 187 high end crits. No that's not over nerfing us at all, is it? My normal crits went from 187 to 157. :/ And that's when I could get a crit which wasn't often, it was like when I was a fresh 90 praying for a crit. And don't get me started on those pathetic ignites and combustions.Can't wait to see Tuesdays raid


I agree that's nerfed. The differing opinion is whether or not that's OVERnerfed. I don't see it being that extreme. I'm willing to alter my opinion as more information becomes available. And really? Quoting my post that's a reply to another post out of context? Shame on you!
Edited by Belledanna on 12/2/2012 3:43 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
0
12/02/2012 08:30 AMPosted by Cortland
It says a lot about a class when their biggest complaint is that they now only have TWO of the top THREE highest DPS
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90 Human Mage
10850
My guild is doing some cleanup tonight.. my god. I feel like I've been raped.
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90 Orc Hunter
5805
So a single class screws over an entire raid so you are going to QQ and throw in the towel? How do you think other pure DPS specs feel that weren't even close to the top 5, couldn't get close to Fire mage DPS, how did that screw over those raids? You are just to focused on being TOP not having fun with 9+ of your friends. Mages have always been self centered whiny little brats...
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90 Draenei Mage
16945
It says a lot about a class when their biggest complaint is that they now only have TWO of the top THREE highest DPS specs in the game and their biggest qualifier is the spec that took the nerf bat was "not too OP".

Really, it's an amazing viewpoint that not another single class in this game could imagine having.

I wish my class had a SINGLE DPS spec represented in the top 10...

[shakes head and walks away]




Or you could just go arcane and be top again? zz


Simcraft might put arcane and frost as competitive specs, but actual data from the game strongly suggests otherwise. I spent a good portion of last night as frost and it pretty quickly became obvious that the simcraft results are a gross exaggeration of the specs performance - it still seems to pull ahead of fire now that it's been nerfed into the ground though.
Edited by Kolzi on 12/2/2012 8:16 PM PST
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90 Draenei Death Knight
7485
It says a lot about a class when their biggest complaint is that they now only have TWO of the top THREE highest DPS specs in the game and their biggest qualifier is the spec that took the nerf bat was "not too OP".

Really, it's an amazing viewpoint that not another single class in this game could imagine having.

I wish my class had a SINGLE DPS spec represented in the top 10...

[shakes head and walks away]




Or you could just go arcane and be top again? zz


Simcraft might put arcane and frost as competitive specs, but actual data from the game strongly suggests otherwise. I spent a good portion of last night as frost and it pretty quickly became obvious that the simcraft results are a gross exaggeration of the specs performance - it still seems to pull ahead of fire now that it's been nerfed into the ground though.


If Simcraft is wrong about Frost and Arcane being top DPS, then why do you believe Simcraft results that put Fire at bottom DPS?

You can't discount Simcraft results when they put a spec at the top and use Simcraft evidence to prove a spec is at the bottom.
Edited by Snaptaunt on 12/2/2012 9:26 PM PST
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90 Worgen Mage
11720
I think one of the other reasons a lot of mages are angry about this nerf is the lack of attention to our level 90 talents. A QoL change was going through the ptr for awhile, before it was pulled with a one line response when asked about.

Currently mages have to deal with talents that are a detriment to gameplay, they are the opposite of anyone's definition of fun. We essentially have to jump through hoops to reach our full potential. The worst part? If we complain about it, players respond that we aren't balanced around 100% uptime, and we can not use them optimally if it came to it. HOWEVER, if we do use them optimally, and are higher than other classes and our balance point because of it. We catch all kinds of flack.

What is the point of being balanced around 60-80% uptime when the people that play the class right and utilize these talents end up getting all eyes drawn to them?
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11670
As I said earlier, when 4.0.6 came out, unholy was gutted so extremely, it not only was the worst spec, but the worst spec by a good 3k dps in cata. My two options were frost, which required different reforges and, if I wanted to max dps, weapons and gems, or blood, which required going from DPS to tank. Whole new ballgame.

I don't know the details but I am sure a hunter could come in here telling you how they have been flip-flopping between the specs over time like a republican presidential candidate.

How many times has ret gone from good, to op, to trash?

Again, nerfs suck. Trust me I know. Knowing blizzard fire will get a hotfix mini-buff next week, but don't be suprised if fire is down for a few patches. Welcome to the club.

Saying this has never happened to mages before is displaying an extremely short memory. For much of Cata, and Wrath, we only had one functioning DPS spec. Fire has gone through being either useless or OP so many times now... There seems to be no middle ground for the spec.
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