Combustion/CM overnerfs. Raidbots confirmed!

90 Pandaren Mage
7180
Since this concept is apparently lost on...most people here who aren't mages, our biggest issue isn't that fire got nerfed or even that it's no longer king of the world. It was that it was gutted, without warning, overnight, with a large rusted meat cleaver. I'm not sure why you think the reaction to being stabbed in the middle of the night should be "Thanks for the tetanus, Blizzard!"

Fire needed a nerf and the obnoxious amount of damage that combustion was doing needed to be curbed. What didn't need to happen, was for them to put up a major patch, give every one a few moments to get acclimated, and then yell "surprise" and beat us to death with pool cues.

Also of interesting note...both sides of the argument seem to be using Sims to try and prove their point and at the same time discredit them when it no longer suits their fancy. Fire sims being low mean nothing because of the lack of that raw data thing, but Mages shouldn't cry because they still have two of the top three dps specs...based on those sims we don't have data for.
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12/03/2012 01:26 AMPosted by Coobeetus
Also of interesting note...both sides of the argument seem to be using Sims to try and prove their point and at the same time discredit them when it no longer suits their fancy. Fire sims being low mean nothing because of the lack of that raw data thing, but Mages shouldn't cry because they still have two of the top three dps specs...based on those sims we don't have data for.


The Fire changes happened just about 2-3 days ago. Frost/Arcane changes were on the PTR for a good while, right? There admittedly should be more Frost/Arcane data than updated Fire info.
Edited by Zarowo on 12/3/2012 1:36 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Mage
7180
Arcane's new status as "Number 1 damage zomg" is only a few days older than Fire's new status as magely whipping boy and it's because of the buff in 5.1 and if recent events are any indication, no one pays attention to the PTR. So there are only a few extra days of information to go on and the majority of the top guilds had their mages throwing fireballs while they were raiding (pre-hotfix) so there weren't a massive amount of parses available to showcase just what Arcane was capable of on the majority of progression encounters.

Frost hasn't really ever been what the sims claim it to be.
Edited by Coobeetus on 12/3/2012 1:41 AM PST
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Well, I do have a question for all the raiding mages. If the sims do hold up for Frost and Arcane, and you can "top the meters" with either of those, do you really care? Weren't the majority of serious raiding mages playing Fire because of its super high dps? Honestly, I have a hard time taking people seriously when they claim en masse that they were playing the spec because it was so much fun. It was so much fun in large part because it put up huge numbers.

Get a bunch of Pyros and put up huge numbers with a ridiculous Combustion. Watch the dazzling array of incredible crits. Now, you get less crits and see smaller numbers. Of course it's not as fun.

I remember I started with my lock when Destro was strongest, and I fell in love with the spec. Having to switch to Aff for the highest potential single target dps is fine with me because I enjoy being competitive. If Aff got gutted tomorrow, I'd reforge and regem for whatever the new competitive spec is, and hope that it's doing well. I thought flexibility was important for serious raiders.

Also, I thought the complaint was that Blizzard wasn't paying attention to the PTR, as they hotfixed this right after the patch, not that "no one pays attention to the PTR."
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90 Pandaren Mage
7180
If they were paying attention to the PTR or if the PTR were in any way relevant, why would Blizzard need to hot fix in the nerf instead of integrating it in to the patch after realizing fire dps wasn't stymied much at all with the change? Unless they get their jollies off of pissing off portions of their fan base I kind of doubt that's the case.

Also, if fire was nerfed in a way that didn't completely reshape the dynamic of the spec, then a lot of people would switch to something more optimal for the sake of competitiveness but the ones who genuinely enjoyed fire for the sake of fire wouldn't be responding like this. I'm sure there are some people angrily flailing because we're not king of the world any more, but the majority of the people outraged by this are outraged because Fire went from being something that the player had a vague amount of control over to something that is entirely "I sure hope the RNG gods love me today."
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17 Troll Warrior
0
It seem to me that all those sims that keep getting thrown about are all single target. It has always been a stated goal that not all fight will play to the strength of every spec. Fire will still be very good for multi-doting cleave fights, which puts them just in line with boomkins and shadow priests (who are also very good and multi target cleave fights and terrible single target). You can spec frost or arcane for single target, congrats blizz made them viable again and with only one small change.
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100 Human Mage
19495
12/03/2012 01:55 AMPosted by Zarowo
Well, I do have a question for all the raiding mages. If the sims do hold up for Frost and Arcane, and you can "top the meters" with either of those, do you really care? Weren't the majority of serious raiding mages playing Fire because of its super high dps? Honestly, I have a hard time taking people seriously when they claim en masse that they were playing the spec because it was so much fun. It was so much fun in large part because it put up huge numbers.

I for one really preferred the fire playstyle, may it rest in peace. If the spec had been nerfed so that we put up less damage than frost or arcane but got to keep the playstyle I would have kept it. (Up to a limit, of course. Big numbers are fun, too.)

If Blizz does the right thing and restores the spec's playstyle in the next few days then I'll just keep progressing as I was. It's okay that I'll do less damage. Otherwise to keep raiding I'd have to switch specs, LFR a few weeks to get my stats raid-ready, and hope I still have time before the new tier to get more progression. I think I'd rather sit out until my spec is playable again, whether that means leveling alts or just taking a break from WoW. This stealth nerf bat they're wielding makes that last option pretty attractive.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
11285
12/03/2012 02:08 AMPosted by Coobeetus
Also, if fire was nerfed in a way that didn't completely reshape the dynamic of the spec, then a lot of people would switch to something more optimal for the sake of competitiveness but the ones who genuinely enjoyed fire for the sake of fire wouldn't be responding like this. I'm sure there are some people angrily flailing because we're not king of the world any more, but the majority of the people outraged by this are outraged because Fire went from being something that the player had a vague amount of control over to something that is entirely "I sure hope the RNG gods love me today."


I believe the aim was to nerf Pyro usage as well, one way or another, for PvP concerns. I'm not sure how effective that was either. Given the incredible backlash against the 3 sec CD for Pyro procs, and with it probably wasting additional procs while you crit chain, this seems to be the other option. Admitted speculation here, but there is enough information to suggest that Blizzard was intent in nerfing Pyro usage one way or another. Someone wiser with mage mechanics than me could probably math out how much of a nerf Pyro damage instead of usage would have to take with combustion to reach Blizzard's goal, assuming all specs are supposed to be relatively equal around "the middle of the pack." I have the intial gut feeling that it'd be quite a substantial nerf, making it akin to how Chaos Bolt felt over incinerate in expansions past, only instant.
Edited by Belledanna on 12/3/2012 6:03 AM PST
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100 Troll Hunter
19415
12/02/2012 07:27 AMPosted by Kawaiidesu
Probably due to the lead systems developer stating that he doesn't read class forums anymore (how professional.)

Class forums are for peer to peer communication (i.e. "hey guys, how do I want to gear my X Spec?) - there are not for balance discussions.

That is what the role forums are for. Also, I am pretty sure they do read them, but I don't think they will ever go out of there way to provide feedback on Class Forum threads unless it makes the most sense (i.e. Class specific Q/A threads)
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100 Human Mage
7710
12/03/2012 02:30 AMPosted by Bloodytusks
It seem to me that all those sims that keep getting thrown about are all single target. It has always been a stated goal that not all fight will play to the strength of every spec. Fire will still be very good for multi-doting cleave fights, which puts them just in line with boomkins and shadow priests (who are also very good and multi target cleave fights and terrible single target). You can spec frost or arcane for single target, congrats blizz made them viable again and with only one small change.


That's all well and good except for the gear requirements involved in carrying different specs.
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17 Troll Warrior
0
12/03/2012 06:15 AMPosted by Deerde
That's all well and good except for the gear requirements involved in carrying different specs.


Which every class shares. Boomkins cannot very well be expected to do decent dps as feral without completely switching gear from int into to agi. Mages merely have to reforge and gem differently to go from a multi target spec to a single target spec. Not the end of the world. One spec to rule them all always fails to make people happy. Now you have 3 different specs that all have different strengths and weaknessness. That's a good thing to have.
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90 Human Mage
8970
12/03/2012 06:15 AMPosted by Deerde
It seem to me that all those sims that keep getting thrown about are all single target. It has always been a stated goal that not all fight will play to the strength of every spec. Fire will still be very good for multi-doting cleave fights, which puts them just in line with boomkins and shadow priests (who are also very good and multi target cleave fights and terrible single target). You can spec frost or arcane for single target, congrats blizz made them viable again and with only one small change.


Arcane is not viable no matter what the sims are saying, it's still total crap so that leaves frost only which is in the middle of the pack, scaling poorly and being passed by other classes every week. So looking ahead a month or so from now if nothing is done mages have no viable specs to use in pve.
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100 Human Mage
7710
Mages have a difficult enough time scoring drops for a single spec, let alone two or three. If you build up a crit set (as everybody has done) that will take months. We're not hybrids and competition for spellcaster dps drops is fierce.

In the time a mage builds up a single set a druid can easily put together two sets for totally different roles.

This same problem applies to warlocks, btw.
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100 Goblin Rogue
15390
That noxxic sim is pretty terrible; dunno wtf they're modelling w/ assassination
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100 Human Mage
7710
12/03/2012 06:26 AMPosted by Rainmkr
It seem to me that all those sims that keep getting thrown about are all single target. It has always been a stated goal that not all fight will play to the strength of every spec. Fire will still be very good for multi-doting cleave fights, which puts them just in line with boomkins and shadow priests (who are also very good and multi target cleave fights and terrible single target). You can spec frost or arcane for single target, congrats blizz made them viable again and with only one small change.


Arcane is not viable no matter what the sims are saying, it's still total crap so that leaves frost only which is in the middle of the pack, scaling poorly and being passed by other classes every week. So looking ahead a month or so from now if nothing is done mages have no viable specs to use in pve.


Arcane is doing pretty good in some fights, actually. I saw Method's Blatty put up some impressive numbers yesterday. In non cleave fights it can bring on the heat.

The sim is exaggerating how good it is. But it's not totally wrong.
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90 Pandaren Mage
7180

I believe the aim was to nerf Pyro usage as well, one way or another, for PvP concerns. I'm not sure how effective that was either. Given the incredible backlash against the 3 sec CD for Pyro procs, and with it probably wasting additional procs while you crit chain, this seems to be the other option. Admitted speculation here, but there is enough information to suggest that Blizzard was intent in nerfing Pyro usage one way or another. Someone wiser with mage mechanics than me could probably math out how much of a nerf Pyro damage instead of usage would have to take with combustion to reach Blizzard's goal, assuming all specs are supposed to be relatively equal around "the middle of the pack." I have the intial gut feeling that it'd be quite a substantial nerf, making it akin to how Chaos Bolt felt over incinerate in expansions past, only instant.


While this may very well have been the intention, a more efficient way to do this would simply be to lower the base damage or the coefficient on Pyro(and fireball really) rather than mess around with Critical Mass. Nerfing us to the middle of the pack by actually reducing the damage stuff does should have been preferable to repeatedly smacking Fire's playstyle with a wet trout.
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90 Worgen Mage
12575
12/03/2012 06:02 AMPosted by Belledanna
Also, if fire was nerfed in a way that didn't completely reshape the dynamic of the spec, then a lot of people would switch to something more optimal for the sake of competitiveness but the ones who genuinely enjoyed fire for the sake of fire wouldn't be responding like this. I'm sure there are some people angrily flailing because we're not king of the world any more, but the majority of the people outraged by this are outraged because Fire went from being something that the player had a vague amount of control over to something that is entirely "I sure hope the RNG gods love me today."


I believe the aim was to nerf Pyro usage as well, one way or another, for PvP concerns. I'm not sure how effective that was either. Given the incredible backlash against the 3 sec CD for Pyro procs, and with it probably wasting additional procs while you crit chain, this seems to be the other option. Admitted speculation here, but there is enough information to suggest that Blizzard was intent in nerfing Pyro usage one way or another. Someone wiser with mage mechanics than me could probably math out how much of a nerf Pyro damage instead of usage would have to take with combustion to reach Blizzard's goal, assuming all specs are supposed to be relatively equal around "the middle of the pack." I have the intial gut feeling that it'd be quite a substantial nerf, making it akin to how Chaos Bolt felt over incinerate in expansions past, only instant.


BZZZT, wrong, due to fire mages having shatter, pom and alter time. We can still chain as many back to pack pyro's into someone as before. Pyro damage hasn't changed, and the effects of shatter haven't either. The only thing affecting fire pvp is the time reduction on deep freeze, and the amount of combustion damage that occurs if you don't kill someone in the 4-5 pyroblasts.
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100 Goblin Rogue
9380
"according to this unreliable sim"
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