Combustion/CM overnerfs. Raidbots confirmed!

90 Troll Mage
15190
With my gear I lost 10% crit due to the critical mass nerf. It really does feel like back when this tier began, play-style wise. I think the worst part is when you're just so crit starved that you have to delay your opener until after your trinket procs fall off. I thought it was exciting to get the gear so that I could avoid the bad RNG but it looks like for now we are back to square one.
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90 Goblin Rogue
13465

According to http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps which is calculated using a beta simulationcraft build that supports the hotfix, item level 496 fire mages are now ranked last.


Noxxic is very buggy... trying to use it to support your argument is dumb. First of all most boss fights last longer than 540 seconds and it's all RNG from there. I have topped charts as Assassination (labeled as the worst rogue spec) over Fire mages/warlocks/fury warriors in the past that had a higher ilvl.
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12/02/2012 08:56 AMPosted by Lhivera
That said, GC tweets made it clear they're watching the numbers; if Fire has taken a nose dive when they see next week's numbers, I imagine we'll see further adjustments. Declaring the spec deceased isn't really productive or realistic.


I do agree with what you say Lhiv, because you are the best among us ever since you started with us.

However, what worries me is that there won't be enough consequential data to warrant changes, considering that mages are either being dropped or asked to go frost for their progression.

My raid group excluded, we have 2 other groups, 1 in particular that is currently doing heroics attempts on some of the bosses. Yes, we're not the best types of heroic players around, but the mage of that group feels that he lost a lot of power on his favourite spec, and I have nothing else to do but agree with him.

Mages know we'll hear the coveted "You have two other specs that are viable". We had 3, and some of us not only love the spec, but we now have to go farming once again for the gear with better stat weights (Mastery for Arcane and Haste for Frost). It's not as cut and dry as people think it is.
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100 Human Warlock
20305
12/04/2012 09:06 AMPosted by Seebach
but the mage of that group feels that he lost a lot of power on his favourite spec, and I have nothing else to do but agree with him.

Pure single target? Maybe. If you respec to a higher single target spec for fights that still benefit heavily from Fire's cleave, you're kinda silly.
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100 Night Elf Druid
9690
Ok, What I dont understand is most mages that are posting had seen this coming or coming in some form or another. Why does it seem that NO mage was prepared ? did they really believe fire was going to stay the way it was ? or did they in some diluted form think it was skill and that's why it was pulling that kind of dps ?
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90 Gnome Mage
13780
12/04/2012 09:13 AMPosted by Kurbkicker
did they really believe fire was going to stay the way it was ?


It wasn't the way 'it was' until three days before.

They majorly buffed combustion in 5.1, mages expected them to nerf combustion back to where it was.

What mages didn't expect was to disable the class completely by removing all cooldown and rotation with the Critical Mass nerf.
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Just to reiterate to those that aren't paying attention: We knew that doubling combustion damage by removing the pyroblast dot was going to get nerfed.

The critical mass nerf, nobody saw that coming, and it is quite unwarranted, and less management of pyroblast since it no longer procs as often is not fun, especially now that combustion also can't be stacked higher than about 25k even with "lucky" crits.

Did blizzard say (once upon a time) that they didn't like a class where their damage was based solely on RNG?

2 steps forwards, 10 steps back.
Edited by Seebach on 12/4/2012 9:51 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5620


and what utility would that be exactly? buff and symbiosis? correct me if im wrong but dont mages get a spellpower buff that also gives crit?


Innervate, battle res, Tranq, Symbiosis, Nature's Vigil, Multi-dotter, Knockback


did u really call multi-Dot ultility? oh and also i noticed u mentioned a talent that no good boomkin or feral would take. get serious. ok ill play your game. lets compare a pure and boomkin with utility.

Boomkin
Battle res
Tranq.
Innervate
Symbiosis
Knockback(not really useful to raid but w/e)
Multi-dot(not ultility but w/e)
Stat buff

Warlock
Battle res/self res on anyone
Healthstones
Pet
Summon
Stam. buff
SP buff
Multi-dot(better at it)
Fears(which is useful for last boss of msv)
Curses
Portals
Healthstones

hell warlocks even have more defensive cooldowns yet ALL 3 specs do more dps than boomkins. dont try to use ulility as an excuse as to why pures should do more when in fact the only pure that has no utility is mage and its not because its a pure. nice try tho.
Edited by Turmoyl on 12/4/2012 12:00 PM PST
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100 Tauren Monk
4000
The multiplicative effect of CM has been hugely reduced in MoP thanks to Inferno Blast. In past expansions, a reduction in crit rate meant a multiplicative reduction in hot streak chance. Going from a 30% crit rate to a 20% crit rate would me cutting the chance of a hot streak by more than half, from 9% on any two consecutive casts to 4%.

But now, when Inferno Blast is up, you only need one crit. Going from 30% to 20% crit is now a 1/3 reduction in the chance for a hot streak, rather than almost a 2/3 reduction.

Only your natural hot streaks, the ones that occur without using Inferno Blast, are still going to see a multiplicative reduction like they used to — and I think if you check your parses, you'll find that they make up less than half of your total hot streaks.


Thanks. I'm going to do some LFR tonight and some 10 normal MV tomorrow which will be my first raid since the hotfix. I'll be very interested to compare the logs.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
12485
12/02/2012 07:27 AMPosted by Kawaiidesu
Apparently developers actually read Damage Dealing because it offers very valuable opinions such as "cry more" and "I don't see what the big deal is" from people that have no idea how mages work because they have never touched them before, and are glad to see them at the bottom of the chart by virtue of their past success. Anyway...


This part is so true it makes me a little sad.
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100 Human Warlock
14805


Innervate, battle res, Tranq, Symbiosis, Nature's Vigil, Multi-dotter, Knockback


did u really call multi-Dot ultility? oh and also i noticed u mentioned a talent that no good boomkin or feral would take. get serious. ok ill play your game. lets compare a pure and boomkin with utility.

Boomkin
Battle res
Tranq.
Innervate
Symbiosis
Knockback(not really useful to raid but w/e)
Multi-dot(not ultility but w/e)
Stat buff

Warlock
Battle res/self res on anyone
Healthstones
Pet
Summon
Stam. buff
SP buff
Multi-dot(better at it)
Fears(which is useful for last boss of msv)
Curses
Portals
Healthstones

hell warlocks even have more defensive cooldowns yet ALL 3 specs do more dps than boomkins. dont try to use ulility as an excuse as to why pures should do more when in fact the only pure that has no utility is mage and its not because its a pure. nice try tho.


The bias is strong in this one.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5620


did u really call multi-Dot ultility? oh and also i noticed u mentioned a talent that no good boomkin or feral would take. get serious. ok ill play your game. lets compare a pure and boomkin with utility.

Boomkin
Battle res
Tranq.
Innervate
Symbiosis
Knockback(not really useful to raid but w/e)
Multi-dot(not ultility but w/e)
Stat buff

Warlock
Battle res/self res on anyone
Healthstones
Pet
Summon
Stam. buff
SP buff
Multi-dot(better at it)
Fears(which is useful for last boss of msv)
Curses
Portals
Healthstones

hell warlocks even have more defensive cooldowns yet ALL 3 specs do more dps than boomkins. dont try to use ulility as an excuse as to why pures should do more when in fact the only pure that has no utility is mage and its not because its a pure. nice try tho.


The bias is strong in this one.


how are facts biased exactly?
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4 Blood Elf Warlock
0
12/02/2012 09:07 AMPosted by Kawaiidesu


I'm interested to see what happens. The sims have fire taking a pretty huge hit, but we know how accurate seems are compared to what really happens.


I really do not understand why people have a tendency to disregard simulations. They are a calculated median from many, many reiterations. That's far more accurate than one weeks worth of parses, where RNG may be a factor for most people (they could have gotten lucky with some crits, or very unlucky.)


I've never been able to duplicate the damage that a Sim suggests in game. Like predicting at 490 you should be able to do 100K damage. But in a fight you end up doing 56k on average after 10 pulls. If the sims were closer to what the average player actually preforms then I might agree with them. But they still seem to pie in the sky for my tastes.
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100 Human Warlock
14805


The bias is strong in this one.


how are facts biased exactly?


I'm glad you asked!

-Boomkin
1. Battle res
2. Tranq.
3. Innervate
4. Symbiosis
5. Knockback(not really useful to raid but w/e)
6. Multi-dot(not ultility but w/e)
7. Stat buff

Warlock
1. Battle res/self res on anyone
2. Healthstones
3. Pet
4. Summon
5. Stam. buff
6. SP buff
7. Multi-dot(better at it)
8. Fears(which is useful for last boss of msv)
9. Curses
10. Portals
11. Healthstones

Lets take a look at this shall we?
Points 1, exactly even. Both have this.
Points 2, arguably even? Its the flavor of heal to the group.
Points 3, Innervate > pet. Shall we look at the only spec that actually uses a pet? Demo. Which one does it use? Felguard. His utility? If you want to get really picky, a 3 second stun on a 30 second cooldown.

Our points de-sync a little here: Druid p4 - Symbiosis, amazingly adaptable utility that grants quite useful abilities to some classes. But lets be fair; its dependent on what classes you're grouped with at the time.

Warlock p4 - a meeting stone. It has quite a few non-combat uses... like sending someone off to repair when you have no engineer! Not really fair to count as utility as its completely unusable in fights or BGs / arenas.

Druid p5 - Knockback! Has the same 'use' in raids as the warlock p-8. Very useful for delaying emperor's rage. Its called, 'not useful' to try and discredit the point. If you don't like this however; how about mass-entanglement instead? Conversly; locks in meta form (demo) can have a knock back as well. So they're even on this point if you count druid's root as equal raid utility to warlock's fear on the will of the emperor's encounter. These points are a wash with eachother.

Warlock p5 - Invalid. The Imp is not used by any spec in a raiding environment. Nor is it used in an arena environment.

Druid p6 - Multi dotting isn't utility, so whatever. Oh unless its warlock p7 - in which it is utility, double standard.

Warlock p6 - Class buff. Druids have one to; Mark of the Wild.

Druid p7 - Addressed as class buff.

Warlock p7 - covered.

Warlock p8 - equates to druid root, which is conveniently left off the druid list.

Warlock p9 - curse of elements, also brought to the table by rogues and possibly hunters if your group is missing it. Druids used to have this as a passive; Earth and Moon, which was for what ever reason removed. Instead druids bring spell haste (spec dependent) and armor debuff (all); both conveniently left off the list.

Warlock p10 - Our new spell that can potentially be used amazingly well if the right situation, and aware partners exist in your group. Perhaps the balance to symbiosis; both of which are our new spells.

Warlock p11 - Lets list health-stones twice to make the list longer.

Druid's also bring an additional curse / poison removal, not listed.
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4 Blood Elf Warlock
0
Things I'm tired of:

1. Constant buff/nerf on mages... I can no longer look at my DPS and say that this is how much I pull. No, this is how much I pull "today". Tomorrow I may be pulling as much as 20k less, or as much as 20k more, I don't know! I don't care if I'm topping the charts, just for the love of all that's holy let me play the same class for more than a month. I'm tired of constantly doing research on what's "in" this week, and spending my resources on this. Sure it's fun to do occasionally, but every week something MAJOR changes.

2. Casting fireballs. The crit nerf makes it so.
(I played Arcane through all of Cata and it was WAY more fun then sitting there hitting FB until it procs.)

Also remember, someone always has to be first in the DPS meters. Whether it's hunters, warlocks, or mages doesn't matter. People will always play some class because of "high dps" and other people will always play a class because it's "fun". I don't care what you do about the dps -- don't nerf the fun!

FB....FB....FB....FB.... FB....FB....FB....FB....FB....FB....FB.... FB....FB....FB....Crit! ....10k tick combustion.....????
^ yes I simplified the rotation by stripping out all the fun evocates/runes and insta casts of whatever bomb. Arcane was fun to play in Cata because of mana management but this is just *yawn*


I get what you say, and totally agree.

People complained that Arcane in Cata was to boring. I'm one of those who completely disagreed. I enjoyed the predictable rotation. The damage was reliable, and consistent, on single targets. I could play it blind folded, which I loved about Arcane. It wasn't about lucky RNG and damage at the precise alignment of spell crits.

What I read from almost all Cata Arcane mages was "don't touch my rotation", and "a little buff in AoE would be fun." Edit: "Allow Arcane Mages some movement would be good too." How did they get that so wrong?
Edited by Krowten on 12/4/2012 1:55 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
The multiplicative effect of CM has been hugely reduced in MoP thanks to Inferno Blast. In past expansions, a reduction in crit rate meant a multiplicative reduction in hot streak chance. Going from a 30% crit rate to a 20% crit rate would me cutting the chance of a hot streak by more than half, from 9% on any two consecutive casts to 4%.

But now, when Inferno Blast is up, you only need one crit. Going from 30% to 20% crit is now a 1/3 reduction in the chance for a hot streak, rather than almost a 2/3 reduction.

Only your natural hot streaks, the ones that occur without using Inferno Blast, are still going to see a multiplicative reduction like they used to — and I think if you check your parses, you'll find that they make up less than half of your total hot streaks.


How often do you raid as fire? I'm just curious.

Have you spent the last couple of evening casting fireball over and over and over and over, without a heating up proc, as you watch your Pyro DoT fall off?

Just curious.
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90 Gnome Mage
13780

Have you spent the last couple of evening casting fireball over and over and over and over, without a heating up proc, as you watch your Pyro DoT fall off?


Pyro DoTs ... just before I switched to arcane mid-raid, I got no heating up procs OR pryo procs for most of the fight.

It was FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB all night long.
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100 Gnome Mage
9540
So didn't read all of the pages, but I saw a few references to Raidbots. I too saw very little decrease based on the nerf. To that I said BS.

Here's what I think is going on in Raidbots...

What you see on raidbots for DPS on a specific day, its not actually DPS for that "day" of logs. Its the DPS based on all of the parses up through that day based on your Sample Period.

For for example with a 2 week sample on 12/4 you would actually mesure the last 2 weeks of data to get the single 12/4 number (These are hypothetical to make a point):
12/4 - Average dps is 1dps
11/20 -> 12/3 - Average dps for is 1,000,000,000dps

You won't see the graph dive down on 12/4. You'll see 13 days of a billion dps and 1 day of 1 dps combined for a slight dip. So it'll be showing 928,571,428dps even if no one that day hit that or anywhere close to it. Worse, if you start filtering by the higher percentages, it'll take even longer for a nerf to show up, beacuse those low dps days will be considered lower percentile parses, even if they're high for the current state of a class.

When you're dealing with a %10-20 nerf it'll take longer for those numbers to start having weight. We won't really see the affect on raidbots until a full week has past. You can see this if you change the Sample Period. 2 weeks shows only a small decrease (And actuallly an uptick today, probably as older lower gear dps is dropping off the chart). If you switch it to 1 week you start seeing a more significant drop.

TL;DR - Raidbots doesn't immediately show the impact of nerfs on a class. It is not a good source of data on the impact until a full Sample Period has been taken with the nerf in place.
Edited by Aftershock on 12/4/2012 2:47 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5620


how are facts biased exactly?


I'm glad you asked!

-Boomkin
1. Battle res
2. Tranq.
3. Innervate
4. Symbiosis
5. Knockback(not really useful to raid but w/e)
6. Multi-dot(not ultility but w/e)
7. Stat buff

Warlock
1. Battle res/self res on anyone
2. Healthstones
3. Pet
4. Summon
5. Stam. buff
6. SP buff
7. Multi-dot(better at it)
8. Fears(which is useful for last boss of msv)
9. Curses
10. Portals
11. Healthstones

Lets take a look at this shall we?
Points 1, exactly even. Both have this.
Points 2, arguably even? Its the flavor of heal to the group.
Points 3, Innervate > pet. Shall we look at the only spec that actually uses a pet? Demo. Which one does it use? Felguard. His utility? If you want to get really picky, a 3 second stun on a 30 second cooldown.

Our points de-sync a little here: Druid p4 - Symbiosis, amazingly adaptable utility that grants quite useful abilities to some classes. But lets be fair; its dependent on what classes you're grouped with at the time.

Warlock p4 - a meeting stone. It has quite a few non-combat uses... like sending someone off to repair when you have no engineer! Not really fair to count as utility as its completely unusable in fights or BGs / arenas.

Druid p5 - Knockback! Has the same 'use' in raids as the warlock p-8. Very useful for delaying emperor's rage. Its called, 'not useful' to try and discredit the point. If you don't like this however; how about mass-entanglement instead? Conversly; locks in meta form (demo) can have a knock back as well. So they're even on this point if you count druid's root as equal raid utility to warlock's fear on the will of the emperor's encounter. These points are a wash with eachother.

Warlock p5 - Invalid. The Imp is not used by any spec in a raiding environment. Nor is it used in an arena environment.

Druid p6 - Multi dotting isn't utility, so whatever. Oh unless its warlock p7 - in which it is utility, double standard.

Warlock p6 - Class buff. Druids have one to; Mark of the Wild.

Druid p7 - Addressed as class buff.

Warlock p7 - covered.

Warlock p8 - equates to druid root, which is conveniently left off the druid list.

Warlock p9 - curse of elements, also brought to the table by rogues and possibly hunters if your group is missing it. Druids used to have this as a passive; Earth and Moon, which was for what ever reason removed. Instead druids bring spell haste (spec dependent) and armor debuff (all); both conveniently left off the list.

Warlock p10 - Our new spell that can potentially be used amazingly well if the right situation, and aware partners exist in your group. Perhaps the balance to symbiosis; both of which are our new spells.

Warlock p11 - Lets list health-stones twice to make the list longer.

Druid's also bring an additional curse / poison removal, not listed.


First of all i was Listing them NOT comparing, i am merely listing all the possible utility one class has and all the possible utility another class has. Before you actually reply to my post read the previous, i only added multi-Dot because the guy i replied to called multi-dot a utility.

point 4: ok we can take that out

point 5: i suppose we can put that under pet

druid pt. 5: i guess me and you have a very different understanding of what very useful means. you see to me not very useful means on overall raid not just 1 fight.

point 6: again im comparing the number of utility

point: 7 refer to previous posts in this thread

warlock pt. 8 this would be true if your fear had a cd but for the sake of arguement we can leave these out.

point 9: other classes do bring this debuff but we are not talking about other classes please limit it to these two. as far as spell haste and armor debuff i just happen to forgot about them does not mean i personally said "hey i wanna leave them out to make my arguement better"

point 10 i agree

point 11 was editing the list because it wasn't showing up right and forgot to delete the healthstones(which is why there is an edit on the post)

Druids curse/poison removals aren't use at all as dps thats why they weren't mentioned but i guess pures think hybrids dps heal and debuff all in their dps spec no wonder they think we got it so good. fyi if we did use them we would have to keep going back into boomkin form.
the classes with the most utility in the game currently is druid and warlock but by the mages logic warlocks should be low dps bcz they have a lot of utility?
Edited by Turmoyl on 12/4/2012 4:09 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255

Have you spent the last couple of evening casting fireball over and over and over and over, without a heating up proc, as you watch your Pyro DoT fall off?


Pyro DoTs ... just before I switched to arcane mid-raid, I got no heating up procs OR pryo procs for most of the fight.

It was FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB FB all night long.


Yes, that's kind of what happened to me the last couple of days of raiding. Perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but it was painfully noticeable.

I'm getting a little tired of people who appear to be almost exclusively frost PvP saying or implying this is a mild nerf.
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