Combustion/CM overnerfs. Raidbots confirmed!

90 Goblin Mage
10025
Thanks Kaw - you're argument was insightful and logical. I hope it is read by someone who cares and has ability to change things. At my lowest level of disapointment with Blizz. :( BEst game ever made, but this was a sad move.
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7 Undead Priest
0
you know what blizz, your customer service is terrible.ive done some testing and have no issues with you bringing the mage fire spec down "in line " with everyone else, it was OP.but you really overshot the nerf, just like you overshot the buff.

why is your customer service terrible? i will tell you why.i need a new spec and new gear to go with it to be competetive again, because my tests show fire pretty mediocre and low end as of today.you basically said to me the last 2 months i spent collecting gear for the spec has been a waste of my time.my time is valuable.nerf me? i dont care if its respectfully done.you basically gutted the spec and now i need a whole new setup, gear included.thanks for wasting the last 2 months time for me ......

and that why your customer service is bad...huge diservice to my invested time.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18065
Boy oh boy, will of the emperor is just *awesome* with this nerf. :/

I guess I should not bother touching any of the adds.
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90 Troll Mage
18195
Anyone else annoyed that the way combustion is applied is a lot like cata again, where there is a half second delay from when you cast it to when its up and spreadable? It looks like it goes on at 10 seconds then goes away and comes back at 20 seconds... I can get used to it but I really liked being able to instantly spread it and possible get a pyro out of it.
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90 Worgen Mage
15160
Well the crit nerf makes raiding so much fun. I think I could live with the combustion nerf as it was somewhat OP, but the crit nerf has put crit levels back down to where instead of having reasonable RNG with occasionally really bad and really good, I now seem to be averaging RNG at crappy with occasionally good.

Feng tonight, I got 16 Fireballs from the start of the fight without a crit, thus no Heating up and no Pyro.

[23:34:04.461] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 63346
[23:34:06.270] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 72270
[23:34:08.672] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 72101
[23:34:10.669] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 72206
[23:34:12.323] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 72257
[23:34:14.268] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 72269
[23:34:16.178] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 65418
[23:34:19.002] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 72181
[23:34:20.934] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 63708
[23:34:23.078] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 63481
[23:34:25.037] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 63237
[23:34:26.681] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 70834
[23:34:28.652] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 70891
[23:34:30.622] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 71128
[23:34:33.933] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 70881
[23:34:35.884] Virtutis Fireball Feng the Accursed 70969


It is bad enough that the entire rotation depends on Crits, but to put crit rating at these levels is stupid. That is why these kinds of changes should be tested. That was what the patch was for. Whomever chose to reduce Critical Mass had no idea whatsoever what they were doing. Either that or they just do not have a clue what to do with mages period.
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90 Human Mage
20355
GG they will not revert changes, its time to choose another spec.

Fire R.I.P 4.3-5.1 "The most beloved spec of pve mages."

I'll miss you friend :'(
Edited by Archmage on 12/5/2012 5:37 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11890
So have they gotten enough data yet to show that what happened affected us adversely yet? I doubt it, it'll probably take them over half the expansion to finally say they screwed us up and then, possibly, they'll try to fix us. But by then, it'll be too late for most people, they'll have changed specs. For those of us that are choosing to continue to play the spec we like the most and not be forced into another, we are looking at a long uphill battle.
Edited by Kaeilthas on 12/5/2012 6:09 AM PST
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100 Human Warlock
14305
[quote]
First of all i was Listing them NOT comparing, i am merely listing all the possible utility one class has and all the possible utility another class has. Before you actually reply to my post read the previous, i only added multi-Dot because the guy i replied to called multi-dot a utility.
Druids curse/poison removals aren't use at all as dps thats why they weren't mentioned but i guess pures think hybrids dps heal and debuff all in their dps spec no wonder they think we got it so good. fyi if we did use them we would have to keep going back into boomkin form.
the classes with the most utility in the game currently is druid and warlock but by the mages logic warlocks should be low dps bcz they have a lot of utility?


Listing, not comparing you say?
[quote]lets compare a pure and boomkin with utility.


Well sir; you are lying to me now. “merely listing all the possible utility one class has.” While once again; conveniently leaving out niche ‘useless’ utility of the druid class while pointing out the almost literal; entirety of the warlock spell book. If you are allowed to claim in your earlier posts:
[quote]oh and also i noticed u mentioned a talent that no good boomkin or feral would take.

Then you are not allowed to make a valid point out of an ability that no good warlock / pure will bring to a raid fight. If you do; it’s a double standard and you’re discrediting the argument.

With that understanding lets address your amended list:
Point 4: We agree

Point 5: “Pet” is in this case, not a utility still. As your above claim of not being able to count a utility that no person who plays the spec will reasonably take. The imp; and by proxy the stam buff that you listed, is NOT used by any spec. Because it is not used by any spec (its sub-optimal vs other pets) the point is invalid; according to your own rules of comparison.

Druid Point 5: You are just tearing your own argument down all over the place aren’t you? If you now claim that any utility that isn’t used on more than one raid fight doesn’t count, please list another fight that warlocks are going to regularly utilize fears. I don’t see anyone properly playing their class; spamming fear on any encounter more so then you could reasonably use your knock back or root for equal purpose. Your dismissal invalidates both points.

Point 6: Comparing raw number vs utilized utility, or even possible utility then discounting abilities / utility talents / niche abilities you gain from shifting into non-optimal forms (while still counting non-optimal pet utility from the warlock) makes your claim inaccurate; and frankly makes you look like a buffoon.

Point 7: Referring back; I’m still not seeing clarification of your: “Multi-doting is utility for warlocks, but not druids because I say so.” Double standard; and as such I will continue to ignore this point.

Warlock point 8: Roots have a cooldown now? Really? Because that’s your equivalent to fear control (on will of the emperor, both are ‘useless’ outside of that fight) Checked; and it does not. My point remains valid. For the sake of argument we can’t leave this out; because once again your point is wrong.

Point 9: “Forgetting” about a utility when you’re attempting to present an argument completely based on comparing the utility of two classes is a bad argument, and makes you look incredibly bias. As the presenter of the argument; it’s on you to be accurate or people will dismiss you.

Point 11: Again, if you are presenting an argument: it must be accurate and complete. Sloppy mis-edits or incomplete edits only weaken your overall position.

I only called out your ‘sub optimal’ decurse because you made it a point to list warlocks sub optimal stam buff (imp) stop holding the sides to a double standard; and your argument will hold more weight. If you wish to go into only a complete raw list of all possible utility; I’ll leave the thread now. Such a comparison is pointless as moonkins using displacer beast into cat; to pounce a target / or shifting into bear form to hit frenzied regen to heal themselves is dumb, and in no way indicates how a good or even average player should play the spec.
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Turmoyl, just stop posting.
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100 Human Warlock
14305
12/05/2012 06:29 AMPosted by Kawaiidesu
Turmoyl, just stop posting.


Apologies for the off-topic rant, back on topic:

After holding some discussion with some friend mages; the best conclusion that we've established is Blizzard just thought the crit at the end of T14 (the first tier of the expansion) was just to high. Especially because it can only go up with the introduction of new tiers. Unfun? Certainly. But sometimes fun takes a back seat to game issues.

Another slightly worrisome point that came up; what are the chances that, since fire now favors haste more then it did before that these changes also double as the "fix" to invocation? Afterall, stacking haste will effectively reduce the cast time; 'fixing' the problem of the cast taking to long.
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Turmoyl, just stop posting.


Apologies for the off-topic rant, back on topic:

After holding some discussion with some friend mages; the best conclusion that we've established is Blizzard just thought the crit at the end of T14 (the first tier of the expansion) was just to high. Especially because it can only go up with the introduction of new tiers. Unfun? Certainly. But sometimes fun takes a back seat to game issues.

Another slightly worrisome point that came up; what are the chances that, since fire now favors haste more then it did before that these changes also double as the "fix" to invocation? Afterall, stacking haste will effectively reduce the cast time; 'fixing' the problem of the cast taking to long.


Yeah, scaling seems to be a big problem. Prenerf I could reach 50% crit or possibly higher during certain parses on fireball and pyroblast. For example: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s2ij9gw2ga5kd1lu/details/0/?s=4115&e=4511. And it would only get higher, this is the first tier after all. According to this parse, I was getting around 18% crit from critical mass alone. This seems a bit...high. My suggestion is that critical mass should instead be a flat critical rate increase, 15% maybe. Of coure this co That way new mages have an easier and more fun time getting into the rotation in lower item level gear, and scaling won't become much of an issue as long as they don't increase the stats on gear exponentially throughout the expac.

About the haste invocation thing, it seems to me that it would take far too much haste even needing to use frost armor over molten armor for that to be viable.
Edited by Kawaiidesu on 12/5/2012 7:06 AM PST
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100 Human Warlock
14305


Apologies for the off-topic rant, back on topic:

After holding some discussion with some friend mages; the best conclusion that we've established is Blizzard just thought the crit at the end of T14 (the first tier of the expansion) was just to high. Especially because it can only go up with the introduction of new tiers. Unfun? Certainly. But sometimes fun takes a back seat to game issues.

Another slightly worrisome point that came up; what are the chances that, since fire now favors haste more then it did before that these changes also double as the "fix" to invocation? Afterall, stacking haste will effectively reduce the cast time; 'fixing' the problem of the cast taking to long.


Yeah, scaling seems to be a big problem. Post nerf I could reach 50% crit or possibly higher during certain parses on fireball and pyroblast. For example: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s2ij9gw2ga5kd1lu/details/0/?s=4115&e=4511. And it would only get higher, this is the first tier after all. According to this parse, I was getting around 18% crit from critical mass alone. This seems a bit...high. My suggestion is that critical mass should instead be a flat critical rate increase, 15% maybe. That way new mages have an easier and more fun time getting into the rotation in lower item level gear, and scaling won't become much of an issue as long as they don't increase the stats on gear exponentially throughout the expac.

About the haste invocation thing, it seems to me that it would take far too much haste even needing to use frost armor over molten armor for that to be viable.


An adjustment to a base flat crit modifier would be interesting. Not much more to be said on the point though; it was to high, and the devs decided to axe it at the knees for now.

The invocation thing wasn't a matter of, "This might fix it and make it 'viable'." But an off comment along the lines of: "What are the chances that they look at the reduced channel time (however small it may be) and just call it, 'good enough!'?" Call me a skeptic (warlock afterall) but I wouldn't put it past them.
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The invocation thing wasn't a matter of, "This might fix it and make it 'viable'." But an off comment along the lines of: "What are the chances that they look at the reduced channel time (however small it may be) and just call it, 'good enough!'?" Call me a skeptic (warlock afterall) but I wouldn't put it past them.


Hopefully the level 90 talents will be worked on soon, Ghostcrawler recently said this in an interview; "Patch 5.2 is going to take a look at what talents are very popular or very unpopular and try and bring them back in line. Overall though, the new talent system is working out well. Ideally there should be at least two talent choices per tier that are good, if not three." so here's to hoping they're going to take a look at us as well.
Edited by Kawaiidesu on 12/5/2012 7:15 AM PST
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Kawaii, a flat 15% crit buff may be too high. This translates to 25% crit self buffed before throwing in gear and consumables.

Not sure what the crit gain per raiding tier is at in this expansion. The spread is very high when you consider that raid gear comes in 3 flavors (LFR, normal, heroic) and now you can jack that up another 8 ilevels with valor.

Two or three more tiers down the line things could get nuts at the high end. I remember what happened in wrath when stat inflation got out of hand due to too many raiding tiers.
Edited by Deerde on 12/5/2012 7:24 AM PST
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Kawaii, a flat 15% crit buff may be too high. This translates to 25% crit self buffed before throwing in gear and consumables.

Not sure what the crit gain per raiding tier is at in this expansion. The spread is very high when you consider that raid gear comes in 3 flavors (LFR, normal, heroic) and now you can jack that up another 8 ilevels with valor.

Two or three more tiers down the line things could get nuts at the high end. I remember what happened in wrath when stat inflation got out of hand due to too many raiding tiers.


15% flat sounds fine to me, that's more than what most people are getting from CM right now. Personally, I would lose crit if that were the case, but not much. It would be a nerf for scaling but a massive buff to those just starting out as fire. Then gear from later tiers would put us up to 50%, which is ideal end expansion crit levels. Everyone else would scale with us as well, however, so it wouldn't be a problem like it is now. Then they would be able to buff combustion a bit to make it similar to pre 5.1 combustion, namely make it around 60-75% ignite damage.

Edit: I would be at 39% crit fully raid buffed if we got a flat 15% from talents, which would be a 7% loss from pre hotfix, and a .5% loss from post.
Edited by Kawaiidesu on 12/5/2012 7:31 AM PST
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39% crit sounds reasonable enough, but you haven't gotten all BiS stuff yet let alone jacked up your drops with valor yet...and this is just the first raiding tier.

I bet you hit low to mid 40s by the time this tier is over assuming a flat 15% CM buff. That's worrisome.

In the long run I think fire should get away from crit and look towards a new secondary resource to drive things. Crit is just very problematic. But that's a whole other rant for a whole new expansion.
Edited by Deerde on 12/5/2012 7:35 AM PST
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39% crit sounds reasonable enough, but you haven't gotten all BiS stuff yet let alone jacked up your drops with valor yet...and this is just the first raiding tier.

I bet you hit low to mid 40s by the time this tier is over assuming a flat 15% CM buff. That's worrisome.

In the long run I think fire should get away from crit and look towards a secondary resource to drive things. Crit is just very problematic. But that's a whole other rant for a whole new expansion.


See but the thing is at 39% crit I'm barely beating my fellow dps in my raid group, and at 45% I dominated. So there seems to be a very slippery slope there. I'm guessing by the end of first tier in almost full best in slots with gear upgrades in the current state of fire I would reach 42%ish.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
The first day of the first raiding week since the nerf has come and gone. Let's see some parses, folks.
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Yes, there's a very narrow range to play with here between crap and over the top. This I think is the fundamental problem with crit and may be insoluble.
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