Combustion/CM overnerfs. Raidbots confirmed!

12/05/2012 07:38 AMPosted by Lhivera
The first day of the first raiding week since the nerf has come and gone. Let's see some parses, folks.


I'll have some parses available for tonight, albeit not very good fights to compare (heroic elegon, heroic vizier, normal terrace clear)

Also about do feng and garajal LFR, I wont ignore mechanics like most people do so it's as close to heroic as possible.

Edit: also added a note at the top of the OP pointing to your thread. Hopefully we can get a lot of data.
Edited by Kawaiidesu on 12/5/2012 8:23 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18065
12/05/2012 06:09 AMPosted by Kaeilthas
So have they gotten enough data yet to show that what happened affected us adversely yet? I doubt it, it'll probably take them over half the expansion to finally say they screwed us up and then, possibly, they'll try to fix us. But by then, it'll be too late for most people, they'll have changed specs. For those of us that are choosing to continue to play the spec we like the most and not be forced into another, we are looking at a long uphill battle.


Apparently they had enough data after *three* days post 5.1 accidental Combustion buff to go ahead and hotfix nerf us into the ground.
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Apparently they had enough data after *three* days post 5.1 accidental Combustion buff to go ahead and hotfix nerf us into the ground.


Hadn't thought of that. So apparently three days is all they need to make informed decisions.
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I don't think the CM nerf was based on 3 days of data alone or even aimed solely at adjusting current DPS balance.

Not sure what the lead time is on future content, but they may just be now getting a grasp of itemization for later tiers...and they saw that and freaked out.
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100 Human Mage
13645
Not sure what the crit gain per raiding tier is at in this expansion. The spread is very high when you consider that raid gear comes in 3 flavors (LFR, normal, heroic) and now you can jack that up another 8 ilevels with valor.

Two or three more tiers down the line things could get nuts at the high end. I remember what happened in wrath when stat inflation got out of hand due to too many raiding tiers.


This is something I've been wondering about as well. In Wrath, they claimed that ilevel got too high due to adding in hard modes as well as the filler tier 9. At the time, the gear spread from starter epics to hard mode T10 was 77 ilevels (5 man heroic gear to most T10H gear in ICC).

They remedied this in Cata by having 10s and 25s drop the same ilevel gear so we only saw epics go from 359 up to 410 (only 51 ilevels).

Now, we're on track to repeat Wrath by having the very first tier go from 476 to 509 (33 ilevels) and that's not even counting upgrading. Just looking at the amount of unbuffed crit gained as we gear up, we're well on our way to Wrath levels of secondary stats.
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World of logs:

Heroic: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s2ij9gw2ga5kd1lu/?s=5270&e=5566
LFR 1: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-j6fc03maurxul6jm/
LFR 2: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-a5kgjh570szve4dm/

Comparison for 10 heroic feng pre hotfix and LFR feng post hotfix. 19% dps loss. Was fully raid buffed with 500 stats flask. This one makes me particularly sad. :( Also, I stood on top of tank for barriers and didn't move at all.

LFR 1: http://www.raidbots.com/comparebot/50bf868874254efd3e0009d3#damage
LFR 2: http://raidbots.com/comparebot/50bf8f9e74254e321a0000d1

Comparison for 10 heroic garajal pre hotfix and LFR garajal post hotfix. 12% dps loss. Same story as feng. Seems I got a bit luckier with RNG here, and I literally did not move at all.

LFR1: http://www.raidbots.com/comparebot/50bf86ea74254efd3e0009d9
LFR2: http://raidbots.com/comparebot/50bf929574254efd3e000acb

I would try doing arcane LFR, but I can't stomach much more LFR. I might update with more info later, and I will definitely update with actual raiding logs tonight.
Edited by Kawaiidesu on 12/5/2012 10:31 AM PST
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100 Worgen Hunter
12145

The real questions is why on earth didn't they start making these nerfs on the PTR pre 5.1? It isn't like fire dps wasn't just as gross 4 weeks ago. There is no reason for a nerf, buff, or any change of this magnitude to be made in a hotfix. It's bad process by the developers.


Someone gets it.


Because the PTR isn't about class balance. This has been pointed out countless times. They wouldn't accomplish anything testing a balance change on 5.1 as no one was raiding or PvPing in any serious manner on the PTR.
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100 Worgen Hunter
12145
World of logs:

Heroic: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s2ij9gw2ga5kd1lu/?s=5270&e=5566
LFR 1: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-j6fc03maurxul6jm/

Comparison for 10 heroic feng pre hotfix and LFR feng post hotfix. 19% dps loss. Was fully raid buffed with 500 stats flask for LFR. This one makes me particularly sad. :(

http://www.raidbots.com/comparebot/50bf868874254efd3e0009d3#damage

Comparison for 10 heroic garajal pre hotfix and LFR garajal post hotfix. 12% dps loss. Same story as feng.

http://www.raidbots.com/comparebot/50bf86ea74254efd3e0009d9

Will do them again for data's sake, although it hurts to do so.


This comparison has so many variables and other issues that have nothing to do with the nerfs that I actually laughed out loud (most notably that I've had swings that big from connsecutive attempts before with specs that have much lower variances than fire - mysterious stealth nerfs midraid no doubt!). Even if it were accurate, the real comparison is between fire mages and other specs/classes. The point of a nerf is to nerf damage. If Mages were doing 25% more damage than Blizzard intended before (not saying that's the case, simply an example) and saw 20% reduced damage from the nerfs, they're still overpowered.
Edited by Peverell on 12/5/2012 10:11 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18065
12/05/2012 10:07 AMPosted by Peverell
Because the PTR isn't about class balance. This has been pointed out countless times.


To those of you who claim the PTR isn't about class balance, let me quote Ghostcrawler for you.

Here he is, discussing class balance before patch 4.3 was released. He clearly indicates that the developers do, in fact, use numbers from the PTR to engage in class balance:

On with the show. Note that most of these changes are mechanics changes. We have not yet finished enough testing to be confident in our benchmark damage, healing, and tanking numbers for 4.3. When we finish those, and when we see what some players are capable of doing on the PTR (or even what they theorycraft or sim based on PTR numbers) there will be additional changes. Off the top of my head, I’d say Fury warrior damage is almost certainly too high and Resto druid AE healing (ignoring the effects of Tranquility of course) is also too potent.
Edited by Taymage on 12/5/2012 10:13 AM PST
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100 Worgen Hunter
12145
12/05/2012 10:12 AMPosted by Taymage
Because the PTR isn't about class balance. This has been pointed out countless times.


To those of you who claim the PTR isn't about class balance, let me quote Ghostcrawler for you.

Here he is, discussing class balance before patch 4.3 was released. He clearly indicates that the developers do, in fact, use numbers from the PTR to engage in class balance:



That demonstrates absolutely nothing. Obviously if they notice a serious issue with class balance on the PTR, they will fix it. That doesn't mean their intent is to test balance, especially on a PTR that offers no new raids or battlegrounds (meaning no serious players even touched it to raid or PvP - the places where balance matters). The goal of the PTR is not to balance. What you just linked doesn't dispute that in the slightest. End of story.
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This comparison has so many variables and other issues that have nothing to do with the nerfs that I actually laughed out loud (most notably that I've had swings that big from connsecutive attempts before with specs that have much lower variances than fire - mysterious stealth nerfs midraid no doubt!). Even if it were accurate, the real comparison is between fire mages and other specs/classes. The point of a nerf is to nerf damage. If Mages were doing 25% more damage than Blizzard intended before (not saying that's the case, simply an example) and saw 20% reduced damage from the nerfs, they're still overpowered.


I have a few points for you.

1) Dps should be higher in LFR, because you can ignore a lot of mechanics and just straight up do damage. For example, I would expect myself to do 110k in LFR on feng pre-nerf. (how would you know about variables between feng and LFR anyway, you have no experience)
2) It's LFR. My gear is probably 10-15+ item levels higher than the other people in here, and not to sound elitist, but I'm a far better player as well. Also, let me reiterate, it's LFR. People don't try at all in it, except when they're testing dps. (like I did) That's why you see that I'm doing much more damage.

edit: also, I updated the original post you quoted with more data. About the same results, except for garajal which I got pretty lucky on.
Edited by Kawaiidesu on 12/5/2012 10:32 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18065
Kawa, this hunter has been, for days now, non-stop trashing fire mages as nothing but whiners who have nothing about which to complain.
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12/05/2012 10:32 AMPosted by Taymage
Kawa, this hunter has been, for days now, non-stop trashing fire mages as nothing but whiners who have nothing about which to complain.


Doesn't really invalidate what he's saying, although it is from a mage jealousy point of view apparently.
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90 Human Mage
14585
Wish I would of known about this sooner I'll make sure to log HoF and Terrace as fire I played arcane this week for MSV.
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With what my group did last night, I can say that I saw around a 15k dps decrease, and now placed 2nd, which was 6k behind #1, whom was a WW monk, for fights like Guardians and Feng. I couldn't get an accurate dps on Garajal, and I placed 3rd on Spirit Kings. We unfortunately didn't parse, as our warlock who handles this was out for the night.

Pyro's were very scarce, as I traced around maybe 18-22 based on the 4 boss fights that I went to for our 10 man, and about equal with LFR during a Terrace Run. Normally I would see double this.

I only saw Combustions get up to 25k when under the effects of Time Warp and having our Priest actually being a Spriest and not an off healer. What other paltry ones ranged from 9 to 15k.

Again I state that the crit mass nerf was unnescessary.
Edited by Seebach on 12/5/2012 10:45 AM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
11265
Now this is a difference of opinion and a perspective so read at your own discretion.

Fire mages got nerfed yes. But the reduction in dmg is not just such that your choices are completely obliterated. In a warped way fire is now more gear dependant which will be counteracted by you obviously getting more gear or another tier opening up. I can relate to this. When I hit 90 my dmg my abysmal, because my gear was abysmal, of course relative to others. Starsurges wouldnt proc, dots wouldnt extend. It was fairly sad. Moonkins are also crit dependant now, so I can relate to how you feel. The diff being that instead of our dot taking an increase in dmg, they increase their duration.

However as I got gear my dmg went back to where I am now comfortable with it. I dont want to be op, but want is such that when i try at least I have a shot at top 5.

As for the perspective. Many would turn around and say switch to feral. Similarly, I know it sucks hearing, but wasnt arcane buffed recently? Which brings us to the second point. Playstyle. There are parts I hate about moonkin, eclipse being one, our aoe being the other. And I cannot just flip to feral, that would be the same as you dropping your fire mages and coming to the next boss in raid as a rogue. However there must be some adaptation. Every player has something they hate and something they love about a spec. Doesnt mean it cannot be used to excel in scenarios that benefit it.

conclusion: Yea it might be a huge nerf, maybe even an overnerf. But how one present a large sum of ideas without using all possible scenarios first. "We have to wait 2 or more weeks to see arcane numbers" or "We dont like the playstyle" arent valid arguments.
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100 Worgen Hunter
12145


This comparison has so many variables and other issues that have nothing to do with the nerfs that I actually laughed out loud (most notably that I've had swings that big from connsecutive attempts before with specs that have much lower variances than fire - mysterious stealth nerfs midraid no doubt!). Even if it were accurate, the real comparison is between fire mages and other specs/classes. The point of a nerf is to nerf damage. If Mages were doing 25% more damage than Blizzard intended before (not saying that's the case, simply an example) and saw 20% reduced damage from the nerfs, they're still overpowered.


I have a few points for you.

1) Dps should be higher in LFR, because you can ignore a lot of mechanics and just straight up do damage. For example, I would expect myself to do 110k in LFR on feng pre-nerf. (how would you know about variables between feng and LFR anyway, you have no experience)
2) It's LFR. My gear is probably 10-15+ item levels higher than the other people in here, and not to sound elitist, but I'm a far better player as well. Also, let me reiterate, it's LFR. People don't try at all in it, except when they're testing dps. (like I did) That's why you see that I'm doing much more damage.

edit: also, I updated the original post you quoted with more data. About the same results, except for garajal which I got pretty lucky on.


And yet there are still tons of issues. You're looking at a couple of attempts at a couple of fights with a class that has a wide range of possible DPS outcomes for the same level of play. You could have played worse this week. You could have gone in with your gear the same as it was before without reforging properly or working out a superior new rotation. Changes sometimes cause rotations, priorities, stat weights, soft caps, etc. to change. LFR is also relevant because I regularly don't have every relevant buff in LFR but always do i nany properly run organized raid. This may not have been the case with your attempts, but I certainly don't flask, use potions or use the highest quality food (if any food) in LFR - for all I know, neither did you. Probably unlikely, but you're also looking at one person, a mage, who, for all we know, intentionally tanked this week to prove his point (even subconsciously).

12/05/2012 10:32 AMPosted by Taymage
Kawa, this hunter has been, for days now, non-stop trashing fire mages as nothing but whiners who have nothing about which to complain.


And yet you haven't been able to succesfully disprove a word I've said. Mages have nothing to complain about, even if fire was completely destroyed by the change. You live in Mage land, where 2 or 3 specs are almost always good in PvP and PvE. I live in "every other class land" where usually only 1, if any, specs are good.
Edited by Peverell on 12/5/2012 12:46 PM PST
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And yet there are still tons of issues. You're looking at a couple of attempts at a couple of fights with a class that has a wide range of possible DPS outcomes for the same level of play. You could have played worse this week. You could have gone in with your gear the same as it was before without reforging properly or working out a superior new rotation. Changes sometimes cause rotations, priorities, stat weights, soft caps, etc. to change. LFR is also relevant because I regularly don't have every relevant buff in LFR but always do i nany properly run organized raid. This may not have been the case with your attempts, but I certainly don't flask, use potions or use the highest quality food (if any food) in LFR - for all I know, neither did you. Probably unlikely, but you're also looking at one person, a mage, who, for all we know, intentionally tanked this week to prove his point (even subconsciously).


I was fully raid buffed and flasked and tried to cut as many corners as I could to squeeze out the dps I could, but I can understand your viewpoint. I'll also upload logs from tonights raids, I'm actually very curious to see how I compare to the rest of my raid group who actually regularly parse top 100 as well. I'm hoping it's at least decent, I don't want to be pigeonholed into playing arcane.
Edited by Kawaiidesu on 12/5/2012 1:38 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
12/05/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Peverell
And yet you haven't been able to succesfully disprove a word I've said. Mages have nothing to complain about, even if fire was completely destroyed by the change. You live in Mage land, where 2 or 3 specs are almost always good in PvP and PvE. I live in "every other class land" where usually only 1, if any, specs are good.


"If your spec was completely destroyed, you have nothing to complain about."

Thanks for this definitely-not-a-troll, very insightful point.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18065
12/05/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Mahourai
Thanks for this definitely-not-a-troll, very insightful point.


Lmao. :)
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