Combustion/CM overnerfs. Raidbots confirmed!

22 Gnome Warrior
80
12/05/2012 09:43 AMPosted by Kawaiidesu
19% dps loss


12/05/2012 09:43 AMPosted by Kawaiidesu
12% dps loss


12/05/2012 10:43 AMPosted by Seebach
15k dps decrease, and now placed 2nd


12/05/2012 10:43 AMPosted by Seebach
I placed 3rd on Spirit Kings


<scratches head> On many fights, fire mages were MORE than 20% above median damage and number 1 by a huge margin. Only proof proffered shows you still near the top. What is the point you are trying to make?
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90 Troll Mage
9060
we should be #1 duh, it's the order of the things...
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100 Troll Mage
14880
Lost 50k on one of our best fights, Stone Guard - getting beat by a Shadow Priest (though barely).
Consistently placing 4-5th (10 man) on the single target ones, where as before I was 1st - seeing a roughly ~15k loss.
Edited by Chìcken on 12/5/2012 3:58 PM PST
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100 Worgen Hunter
13240
And yet you haven't been able to succesfully disprove a word I've said. Mages have nothing to complain about, even if fire was completely destroyed by the change. You live in Mage land, where 2 or 3 specs are almost always good in PvP and PvE. I live in "every other class land" where usually only 1, if any, specs are good.


"If your spec was completely destroyed, you have nothing to complain about."

Thanks for this definitely-not-a-troll, very insightful point.


Specs aren't classes. We all have bad specs. Some of us have no good specs. Respec when your spec gets nerfed. That's what us mere mortals who don't play Mages do. And that assumes that fire actually was destroyed. A 12% nerf still puts it ahead of multiple other specs (and likely some entire classes on many fights).

You're a Mage. Mages have nothing to complain about, at least nothing that we don't all have to complain about.
Edited by Peverell on 12/5/2012 5:17 PM PST
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Simmed 25% lower in heroic elegon. yeah...I'm going arcane. On the bright side it's a new frontier to master.
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Just !@#$ing kidding, I hated arcane and I wanted to commit suicide playing it. Back to fire, forever.
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80 Orc Hunter
0


Apparently they had enough data after *three* days post 5.1 accidental Combustion buff to go ahead and hotfix nerf us into the ground.


Hadn't thought of that. So apparently three days is all they need to make informed decisions.


Funny, didn't you just say you only needed to sim it to make the call? lol
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90 Blood Elf Mage
6075
It should be noted that on raid bots spec score on normal/heroic fire mages are seeing a nose dive.

The spec scores are averaged out over time and this large nose dive is likely worse much worse in reality than it appears.
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Hadn't thought of that. So apparently three days is all they need to make informed decisions.


Funny, didn't you just say you only needed to sim it to make the call? lol


Yes, I did. It was sarcasm.
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100 Worgen Hunter
13240
It should be noted that on raid bots spec score on normal/heroic fire mages are seeing a nose dive.

The spec scores are averaged out over time and this large nose dive is likely worse much worse in reality than it appears.


Um, look again. Fire still seems to be dominating most ways you look at spec score and even when you drop it down to a week's worth of sampling. The biggest thing I notice is the massive spike for Arcane/Frost, probably because good players are finally giving those specs a chance.
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80 Orc Hunter
0
It should be noted that on raid bots spec score on normal/heroic fire mages are seeing a nose dive.

The spec scores are averaged out over time and this large nose dive is likely worse much worse in reality than it appears.


Um, look again. Fire still seems to be dominating most ways you look at spec score and even when you drop it down to a week's worth of sampling. The biggest thing I notice is the massive spike for Arcane/Frost, probably because good players are finally giving those specs a chance.


It's funny how quiet it got in here when parses started coming in. I guess at this point a mage who can't get top 5 is just admitting they were terrible the whole time and only did well because of their broken spec... =)
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Fire mage dps is now dropping drastically, look at the original post for details. It is now statistically supported.
Edited by Kawaiidesu on 12/6/2012 3:03 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11360
It's not the fact that we're crying about nerfs to the spec its how it was applied i think that's grinding most of the gears.

And for the most part the parses are showing a drastic change to a spec that bring gameplay from an accepted point to one that puts all mages that play the spec in a predicament.

I mean did most of us expect a nerf?? yea of course we did but to think that they would go as far as they did wasn't even considered.

I mean from going from "Hey i can compete for top dps!" to "Hey how about all them Fireballs derp derp!!" isn't very cool.

Do I think we should dominate all other specs for DPS? no BUT I do believe we should at least be in a position to compete and we don't even have that now!! I mean we have to have the stars align and the RNG gods to bless us to even be competitive.

I am just saying cut off a few toes yea but don't take the legs from us sheesh.
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90 Human Mage
10850
Keep watching those parses come in. Raidbots automatically adjusts the avg base on the WEEKS parses. Meaning it doesn't show drastic changes in one nights worth of parsing. Over the next week it will balance out around where it is currently at.
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It's not the fact that we're crying about nerfs to the spec its how it was applied i think that's grinding most of the gears.

And for the most part the parses are showing a drastic change to a spec that bring gameplay from an accepted point to one that puts all mages that play the spec in a predicament.

I mean did most of us expect a nerf?? yea of course we did but to think that they would go as far as they did wasn't even considered.

I mean from going from "Hey i can compete for top dps!" to "Hey how about all them Fireballs derp derp!!" isn't very cool.

Do I think we should dominate all other specs for DPS? no BUT I do believe we should at least be in a position to compete and we don't even have that now!! I mean we have to have the stars align and the RNG gods to bless us to even be competitive.

I am just saying cut off a few toes yea but don't take the legs from us sheesh.


Seems to me that the only thing necessary to bring us to acceptable levels was combustion to 66-75% ignite and tinker with fireball/pyroblast spellpower coefficients ever so slightly. Talking 3%ish.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11360
It's not the fact that we're crying about nerfs to the spec its how it was applied i think that's grinding most of the gears.

And for the most part the parses are showing a drastic change to a spec that bring gameplay from an accepted point to one that puts all mages that play the spec in a predicament.

I mean did most of us expect a nerf?? yea of course we did but to think that they would go as far as they did wasn't even considered.

I mean from going from "Hey i can compete for top dps!" to "Hey how about all them Fireballs derp derp!!" isn't very cool.

Do I think we should dominate all other specs for DPS? no BUT I do believe we should at least be in a position to compete and we don't even have that now!! I mean we have to have the stars align and the RNG gods to bless us to even be competitive.

I am just saying cut off a few toes yea but don't take the legs from us sheesh.


Seems to me that the only thing necessary to bring us to acceptable levels was combustion to 66-75% ignite and tinker with fireball/pyroblast spellpower coefficients ever so slightly. Talking 3%ish.


Aye maybe giving us the pre 5.1 Combustion back and reverting the CM nerf..actually just reverted the CM nerf would be acceptable even with combustion only doing 50% if ignite.

idk just something to keep us in the fight cause as it stands now we're right back in 463 blues trying to fish for crits and getting nothing but smoke.
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90 Human Paladin
14640
12/06/2012 03:02 PMPosted by Kawaiidesu
Fire mage dps is now dropping drastically, look at the original post for details. It is now statistically supported.


Using your same links, Fire is still doing much better than other specs in heroics. So, what's the issue again? That you're not #1?

Go sell your sob story for Balance Druids, I'm sure they would LOVE to hear you complain about damage right now...
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92 Human Mage
11775
Critical hits were happening more often than they had intended. This wasn't discovered 3days after the patch. They just didn't want to put it in the patch notes, probably b/c of the outrage they received over the 3sec cd on Pyroblast but that is just speculation. The change to critical mass achieves part of what they were looking to change with pyroblasts happening too often. The thing that wasn't avoided in this change was the decrease to fun. You can argue that fun is subjective but reading threads about Fire nerfs for the last week and responding to many of them, it's a pretty common theme "12 fireballs w/o a single crit", "combustion change maginfied by the lack of Pyroblast I get now". The critical mass nerf was what we got instead of the 3sec CD on Pyroblast. Not really the same result but close enough to what they wanted, it would seem.

The buff/nerf on Combustion makes very little sense as well unless you consider it in the light of maybe they just didn't want it in the patch notes. Combustion was capable of being very OP before the patch buff. The buff solidified it's fate of getting a nerf while helping to hide the nerf of removing the dot component of pyroblast. Removing the dot of pyroblast from combust wasn't a nerf originally b/c of the other change but the end result is, it contributed to the overall nerf.

Why would they sneak a huge nerf in right after a patch? you can theorize and guess but they haven't told us. The theory from the "think it's deserved group" is that they just didn't know and had to implement a quick fix after seeing numbers on the live servers. Personally, I believe they would have rather given us the 3sec CD on pyro but when that was complained about enough they removed it from the PTR and put forth the plan to execute what we have now. Either way, there was not enough time between the announcement and the changes hitting live servers for players to respond with anything but outrage.
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Fire mage dps is now dropping drastically, look at the original post for details. It is now statistically supported.


Using your same links, Fire is still doing much better than other specs in heroics. So, what's the issue again? That you're not #1?

Go sell your sob story for Balance Druids, I'm sure they would LOVE to hear you complain about damage right now...


First off, thank you for your constructive post.

Secondly,

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_the_Accursed/10H/all/7/30/default/

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/10H/all/7/30/default/

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lord_Ta'yak/10H/all/7/30/default/

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_the_Accursed/25H/all/7/30/default/

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/25H/all/7/30/default/

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lord_Ta'yak/25H/all/7/30/default/

Thirdly, while gear certainly helps fire (gear helps any spec) people in heroics are a very small percentage of people playing the game therefore parses for normal modes matter a LOT more. That being said, fire mages are definitely not doing "much better" than any other spec.

Fourth, then maybe boomkins should be buffed as well?
Edited by Kawaiidesu on 12/6/2012 3:57 PM PST
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100 Draenei Shaman
5230
This thread was opened 4 days ago, which was way too early, since fire was nerfed 11/29. But it's now 4 days later, and it's been a week, so we can use the preliminary numbers.

Looks like arcane jumped way up in the rankings. It's doing pretty well.

Arcane
25H: middle of the pack
25N: very strong
10H: very strong
10N: very strong

If you look at the number of samples in raidbots, this is not completely sample bias-- we still have tons of fire parses from the past week. Still many more fire parses than arcane.

Of course the skilled mages probably switched to arcane, certainly, and that does introduce sample bias. But with ~3x as many fire parses as arcane parses, that is not the only answer.

Based upon those numbers, it does indeed look like fire was probably overnerfed by a couple percent. Hopefully the devs will revert part of the nerf as a hotfix and not force mages to wait until 5.2 (or even later).
Edited by Slant on 12/6/2012 4:01 PM PST
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