LFR- Loot system - The good, The bad, The fix

100 Human Rogue
11320
Ive had good luck with Sha and LFr or at least average, go look on the general forum, there is a poster there who ran almost as many Sha and LFR as me and doesnt have a single piece of Sha or LFR loot, but they have more valor gear and crafted gear.

But I have about 11 ilevels over them.

A pure random system can have issues.


Why doesn't this persons guild get them caught up then? If he's not in a guild and his lack of gear isn't preventing him from killing bosses why does it matter?
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50 Worgen Rogue
250
12/05/2012 07:15 AMPosted by Hyjinx
At least he cited some data. Which is more than you did.


The onus wasn't even on me. If someone says "I can cure cancer!" and someone else says "prove it" ... you don't get points for replying "no, you first!"

12/05/2012 07:27 AMPosted by Babzidu
VP gear is still good for people raiding.


Correct and with dailies offering VP too (albeit slow), it helps fill in those gaps that the unlucky are having.
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90 Human Paladin
13535
12/04/2012 10:29 PMPosted by Postonforums
You didn't, your rep sucks, you're arguing against VP gear, you're assuming 1000 vp is hard, and you're all around being lazy.


Here's the issue someone like me and other players have with the system as it stands. I raid LFR, no normals, no heroics. I don't have the time or patience to wipe perpetually on my few days off a week to try to kill something. I'm fine with that, and I'm just happy to live in my LFR tier and still enjoy the game.

That being said, there's a distinct difference between LFR raiding and using LFR to gear for raids. Once you're in normals/heroics items will drop, you can see them, and they will eventually be distributed to you in time, and you can double-dip into LFR to complete set bonuses and gain extra sigils. In LFR-only raiding you kill the bosses once a week and pray you stop seeing gold that doesn't cover your repair bills. You get in a Sha PUG and flip a coin and pray for 1 of the 2 normal tier pieces. You have 16 chances for upgrades in LFR, 2 world bosses (one of which spawns every equinox it seems), 3 additional coin flips, and when you continually see 28.5 gold it does burn inside you. Worst is when you do finally win an item and get something you don't want or have better and it sells for less than 28.5 gold.

I've gotten unbelievably lucky with weapon and sigil drops along with one trinket, but armor is very sparse or non-existent. I get into LFR and see tanks and DPS and healers with a full 5 pieces of tier unenchanted and ungemmed and I'm barely beating them in damage because of lower ilvl and lack of set bonus improvements. A purely random system is OK if LFR is used as a secondary means of upgrading for normal raiding, but for those of us who only raid LFR it's the worst idea, ever. There is valor gear available for purchase, but again being a LFR-only tier raider I'd have to eventually upgrade my 489 pieces with my 483 tier and take a hit and waste the valor. It's not worth it, especially with a lot of the valor pieces not being that well itemized for my class. My valor is better spent upgrading what I do have that is BiS for me (weapon and trinket) and, as a last resort to prevent capping, buy an item. At the very least though LFR stopped telling me "hey, thanks for killing this boss again. BTW, here's that Tier helm token you can't have."

The system should have a stacking effect that after every loss the required roll to win increases to a higher chance (not insanely high, maybe 1-2%) and resets on a win, meaning that with the worst luck ever you'd eventually hit a 100% chance. There are players that have religiously downed LFR every week and still have absolutely nothing to show for it, and some that had a 2 piece normal set bonus from their first Sha kill on release week by flipping a coin then proceed to win every BiS item on every kill thereafter. The system is too random for LFR-only players and "RNG is RNG" isn't what I would call an acceptable attitude anymore. At some point the system does have to give and put out for everyone in some way or risk the effect of alienating and losing unhappy players who just can't upgrade no matter how they try.
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90 Undead Mage
10315
12/05/2012 07:56 AMPosted by Sarosha
You cant buy the gear and also upgrade it.


Really? Cuz I'm pretty sure VP gear is upgradeable. I mean if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, but last I checked gear bought with VP and JP was perfectly capable of being upgraded.

12/05/2012 07:56 AMPosted by Sarosha
go look on the general forum, there is a poster there who ran almost as many Sha and LFR as me and doesnt have a single piece of Sha or LFR loot, but they have more valor gear and crafted gear.


Random loot is random, news at 11.

12/05/2012 07:56 AMPosted by Sarosha
A pure random system can have issues.


12/05/2012 07:56 AMPosted by Sarosha
But I have about 11 ilevels over them.


There is no issue. The two of you chose to gear up using Free Loot Roulette mode, one of you got lucky, the other didn't. If you want a reliable gearing system, grind valor or raid. Otherwise, feel happy with a 15% chance.
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90 Orc Shaman
13550
The onus wasn't even on me. If someone says "I can cure cancer!" and someone else says "prove it" ... you don't get points for replying "no, you first!"


You don't get points for being a jackass nitpicker, either.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
The onus wasn't even on me. If someone says "I can cure cancer!" and someone else says "prove it" ... you don't get points for replying "no, you first!"


But you'd get points for linking a study that has a 100% success rate.
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100 Pandaren Monk
13655
I dislike the OP's idea.
It once again places my chance at loot into someone elses hands.

If i was to make any change it would be to add a increasing chance to win loot per boss kill that you did not win loot on.
SO we have a base 15% chance now, If you didnt win any thing this weel from that boss next week it would be 20%, the next week 25% and so on up to 50% and cut off there.
This would be on a per boss status and would reset once you won a item (regardless of if its a item you wanted).

This should counter most of the bad luck type of players out there with out making loot a guarantee drop.
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50 Worgen Rogue
250
12/05/2012 02:58 PMPosted by Hyjinx
You don't get points for being a jackass nitpicker, either.


I'm not even going to point out the irony in this.

12/05/2012 03:01 PMPosted by Postonforums
But you'd get points for linking a study that has a 100% success rate.


Yeah, just like the website I read where some guy said XBox was better than PS3 because Microsoft said so and provided a link.
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90 Tauren Druid
12115
Anything that increases anyone's chance of getting loot, is wrong (Blizzard have a set rate of loot acquisition they want, and the system is meant to deliver that).
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90 Orc Shaman
13550
12/05/2012 03:42 PMPosted by Greyhide
I'm not even going to point out the irony in this.


Go ahead, point out where I nitpicked you in this thread.

Oh, right, you can't.
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85 Human Priest
6980
The one thing that should be done is a streak breaker at 12 or so failure to get loot, it should force a loot win.

its mildly exploitable but you would have to get 11 failures to even think of exploiting it.


The problem with any slump buster system is the inevitable player who wins a piece of gear he already has or does not need with his auto "win" roll.

You know as well as i do that there will be 7+ posts on the front page every day by players pissed off about a wasted streak breaker win. Post after post of people proposing fixes to the "broken" slump buster system.

The current lfr loot system is a direct result of overwhelming feedback by bitter players. QQ about the current system is absolute proof that you will never make players happy by giving them what they ask for.

Every "fix" i have seen proposed would lead to more QQ.
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50 Worgen Rogue
250
Go ahead, point out where I nitpicked you in this thread.

Oh, right, you can't.


Wow. Deliberately dense or just plain....

... anyway.

The problem with any slump buster system is the inevitable player who wins a piece of gear he already has or does not need with his auto "win" roll.

You know as well as i do that there will be 7+ posts on the front page every day by players pissed off about a wasted streak breaker win. Post after post of people proposing fixes to the "broken" slump buster system.

The current lfr loot system is a direct result of overwhelming feedback by bitter players. QQ about the current system is absolute proof that you will never make players happy by giving them what they ask for.

Every "fix" i have seen proposed would lead to more QQ.


Greed is one of the unfortunate things that MMOs are plagued with. I can't believe how bad it is at such an easy MMO like this one. I've played more difficult ones where loot was much more difficult yet most people were well enough to say "no, that guy has been after that longer, so I'll pass." This game is all about "me me me" and everyone seems to have their reasons why they deserve something and someone else doesn't. My favorites are the completely made-up reasons and even more so when someone backs that person up.

I know you can't please everyone and you never will. When your customer base is in the millions and consists of many kids and immature adults, you'll expect to get idiotic feedback mixed in with all the legitimate concerns.
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100 Pandaren Monk
8810
12/05/2012 02:35 PMPosted by Boogieknight
You didn't, your rep sucks, you're arguing against VP gear, you're assuming 1000 vp is hard, and you're all around being lazy.


Here's the issue someone like me and other players have with the system as it stands. I raid LFR, no normals, no heroics. I don't have the time or patience to wipe perpetually on my few days off a week to try to kill something. I'm fine with that, and I'm just happy to live in my LFR tier and still enjoy the game.

That being said, there's a distinct difference between LFR raiding and using LFR to gear for raids. Once you're in normals/heroics items will drop, you can see them, and they will eventually be distributed to you in time, and you can double-dip into LFR to complete set bonuses and gain extra sigils. In LFR-only raiding you kill the bosses once a week and pray you stop seeing gold that doesn't cover your repair bills. You get in a Sha PUG and flip a coin and pray for 1 of the 2 normal tier pieces. You have 16 chances for upgrades in LFR, 2 world bosses (one of which spawns every equinox it seems), 3 additional coin flips, and when you continually see 28.5 gold it does burn inside you. Worst is when you do finally win an item and get something you don't want or have better and it sells for less than 28.5 gold.

I've gotten unbelievably lucky with weapon and sigil drops along with one trinket, but armor is very sparse or non-existent. I get into LFR and see tanks and DPS and healers with a full 5 pieces of tier unenchanted and ungemmed and I'm barely beating them in damage because of lower ilvl and lack of set bonus improvements. A purely random system is OK if LFR is used as a secondary means of upgrading for normal raiding, but for those of us who only raid LFR it's the worst idea, ever. There is valor gear available for purchase, but again being a LFR-only tier raider I'd have to eventually upgrade my 489 pieces with my 483 tier and take a hit and waste the valor. It's not worth it, especially with a lot of the valor pieces not being that well itemized for my class. My valor is better spent upgrading what I do have that is BiS for me (weapon and trinket) and, as a last resort to prevent capping, buy an item. At the very least though LFR stopped telling me "hey, thanks for killing this boss again. BTW, here's that Tier helm token you can't have."

The system should have a stacking effect that after every loss the required roll to win increases to a higher chance (not insanely high, maybe 1-2%) and resets on a win, meaning that with the worst luck ever you'd eventually hit a 100% chance. There are players that have religiously downed LFR every week and still have absolutely nothing to show for it, and some that had a 2 piece normal set bonus from their first Sha kill on release week by flipping a coin then proceed to win every BiS item on every kill thereafter. The system is too random for LFR-only players and "RNG is RNG" isn't what I would call an acceptable attitude anymore. At some point the system does have to give and put out for everyone in some way or risk the effect of alienating and losing unhappy players who just can't upgrade no matter how they try.


Going to reply to this.

Welcome to raiding (any tier)

Do you think those that do normal / heroic raids don't go weeks at a time with no upgrades ? If I hadn't burnt a coin on our three boss kills in 10 man normal I would have gotten nothing as I don't wear plate or cloth which is all that has dropped for our group. Trash kills dropped a nice trinket for me, I lost the roll to a guildie and said 'gratz', and a pattern with the same result.

LFR in it's current state is so much better than the old system for loot distribution and if the 28.5 gold per boss is not paying your repair bills you are doing something wrong. As a tank my repair bills are covered even doing the shorter ones (MSV part one) much less Terrace. If the group is wiping all the time then I don't know what to say. If you are at a lower iLevel due to bad luck then start with the easy ones every week where you can rack up some gold (and a chance at items) to pay those repairs.
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90 Gnome Priest
3085
A few times I've gotten a piece of loot I didn't need but on the boss there was another one so I was wondering why this is happening.
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90 Gnome Priest
3085
How is that a bad fix? That actually would fix everything
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90 Worgen Warlock
11935
I wish there was an option to d/e.
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90 Tauren Warrior
8265
I just really wish I could exchange items for other loot off a certain boss or have the option to D/E them like every other piece of loot you get in a group when there is an enchanter high enough to do it...

Duplicates so far:
Chest - 3x
Boots - 4x
Neck - 2x
Belt - 2x
Gloves - 2x
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100 Human Paladin
10265
They simply need to address the terrible luck some players have at times. A fail streak is just terribly demoralizing. There are numerous ways this can be accomplished.

One way is to do add a new currency you get with each fail bag that you can add up and spend as a currency for LFR loot at a new vendor. Let's say I get 17 fail bags in a row. Well each fail bag gives me 200 Fail Points so I can take my 2000 fail points and go buy an LFR item of my choice. The items can be priced by value similar to valor items.

I've heard them say they might include mounts, charms and even VP in the bags. The problem with that is it doesn't address anything. Now that we actually have decent VP gear to buy and with all the new dailies I don't need VP because I'm capped anyway. Thanks for more charms? I already have like 20. A weak mount? I already have 50 or so. I'll take fail points any time.
Edited by Sarvan on 3/14/2013 7:47 AM PDT
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