Agi vs PvP Power, and the winner is ...

90 Undead Rogue
12380
PvP Power, even for sub
Edited by Roxeni on 11/27/2012 6:56 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
7390
It's really a matter of personal preference.

Although, I see you are gemmed just like me. I've had this setup forever, i like socket bonus's.

edit: point for point agility is better, but only slightly.
what makes PvP power so good is that it's given almost double the amount that agility is given on gems, etc.
Edited by Viiss on 11/27/2012 12:34 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
2920
I tried all agil. With 1k agil battle elixer to bring it some unf!. Pvp power is more powerful. Ask any experienced rogue.
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100 Undead Rogue
11390
Edited because something weird happened. Don't question it.

But I for one would really like a consensus on the agility vs pvp power debate.
Edited by Keljran on 11/27/2012 12:16 AM PST
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100 Gnome Rogue
16245
There is a thread on arena junkies with stat weights for each spec that suggests PvP power is the better option.
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90 Undead Rogue
12380
@Philosophet:
Say you have 26K AP.
You gemed full PvP Power = 12.15% more dmg to PvP targets, that makes it like you have ~36967 AP vs player.
Or you could've gemed for 1600 agi (+2080 for sub) = ~39,208 AP

So how is it better? I don't see it.
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100 Gnome Rogue
16245
11/26/2012 11:43 PMPosted by Roxeni
That gives an effective AP vs PvP target: 14333*2 + 14333*2*8830/265/100 = 38,218 AP


I am curious as to the formula you are using here what do the divisions of 265 and 100 represent?
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Your AP is strange.
Agility give 2 AP. So, 1600 = 3200 AP and 2080 = 4160 AP.

Unless, AP doesn't stand for Attack Power?
Edited by Knocrogue on 11/27/2012 2:06 AM PST
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100 Human Rogue
16175
More pvp power you get the better agi is, the more agi you get the better pvp power is, only theory crafting that was needed was if it was worth to gem pvp power, that was answered at the release of MOP.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Well, http://shadowpanther.net/aep.htm
Has Agility at 1, Power at .5. Since you get double the Power as Assassination and Combat, I'd assume they're equal for those specs. But, Agility would still come out on top as Subtlety since 1 Agility is actually 1.3 Agility.
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100 Gnome Rogue
16245
14 Attack Power is 1 weapon DPS.

A 160 agility gem = 416 AP as subtlety which is 416/14 = 29.7 weapon DPS.

A 320 PvP Power gem = 1.21% damage increase.

If we look at a relatively simple ability like Backstab for instance: 275% weapon damage + 1053. (Keep in mind the 1053 is constant and will be unaffected by AP increases, yet PvP Power will increase this).

Assume that your Weapon DPS is X dps. So with the PvP power it does

y1 = [2.75(X damage/second(1.8seconds))+1053](1.0121) = 5.001X + 1065.74

Where 1.0121 represents the % increase from PvP Power.

With the increase 29.7 DPS increase from the Agility gem the equation looks like this.

y2= [2.75(X+29.7)(1.8) +1053)] = 4.95X + 1200.02

Since the slope of y1 is greater than that of y2 we know for sufficiently high values of X (weapon DPS) PvP Power will have a greater effect on Backstab than Agility.

Let y1=y2 and solve for X and you obtain 2632.94 Weapon DPS. So if you have greater Weapon DPS than that which we all do by far PvP Power > Agility for Backstab. []

The higher the Weapon Damage coefficient on the ability the greater this disparity is going to be. Something like Ambush at 470% you will see a bigger difference using the equations above as templates:

y1 = [4.70(X damage/second(1.8seconds))+2930](1.0121) = 8.562X + 2965.45

y2= [4.70(X+29.7)(1.8) +2930)] = 8.46X + 2961.5

Solving for X yields X = -38.73 Weapon DPS, so for Ambush you would have to have negative AP for Agility to be better than PvP Power. The math nerd in me finds that funny.

Another thing to keep in mind is that AP coefficients on AP based abilities like Poison or Eviscerate are rarely over 1 meaning that a 160 agility gem (416 AP) is going to most likely always result in less than 1.21% damage increase that you would get from the 320 pvp power gem. I could get into the Math of this, but I'm sleepy.

In conclusion, if you go to Arena Junkies you can look up the stat weights for PvP Power by spec, and you will see that it is weighted vastly higher for Sub than any other spec. I suspect this is largely in part to the high coefficients from on Backstab and Ambush as I tried to show you guys above.
Edited by Newkie on 11/27/2012 2:56 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
12380
Thanks a lot Newkie. I thought about it as I went to sleep - that AP comparison isn't enough, and I need to take weapon damage into an account. Power would also make crits better.

Turns out I am not smarter than internet lol
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100 Night Elf Rogue
8880
14 Attack Power is 1 weapon DPS.

A 160 agility gem = 416 AP as subtlety which is 416/14 = 29.7 weapon DPS.

A 320 PvP Power gem = 1.21% damage increase.

If we look at a relatively simple ability like Backstab for instance: 275% weapon damage + 1053. (Keep in mind the 1053 is constant and will be unaffected by AP increases, yet PvP Power will increase this).

Assume that your Weapon DPS is X dps. So with the PvP power it does

y1 = [2.75(X damage/second(1.8seconds))+1053](1.0121) = 5.001X + 1065.74

Where 1.0121 represents the % increase from PvP Power.

With the increase 29.7 DPS increase from the Agility gem the equation looks like this.

y2= [2.75(X+29.7)(1.8) +1053)] = 4.95X + 1200.02

Since the slope of y1 is greater than that of y2 we know for sufficiently high values of X (weapon DPS) PvP Power will have a greater effect on Backstab than Agility.

Let y1=y2 and solve for X and you obtain 2632.94 Weapon DPS. So if you have greater Weapon DPS than that which we all do by far PvP Power > Agility for Backstab. []

The higher the Weapon Damage coefficient on the ability the greater this disparity is going to be. Something like Ambush at 470% you will see a bigger difference using the equations above as templates:

y1 = [4.70(X damage/second(1.8seconds))+2930](1.0121) = 8.562X + 2965.45

y2= [4.70(X+29.7)(1.8) +2930)] = 8.46X + 2961.5

Solving for X yields X = -38.73 Weapon DPS, so for Ambush you would have to have negative AP for Agility to be better than PvP Power. The math nerd in me finds that funny.

Another thing to keep in mind is that AP coefficients on AP based abilities like Poison or Eviscerate are rarely over 1 meaning that a 160 agility gem (416 AP) is going to most likely always result in less than 1.21% damage increase that you would get from the 320 pvp power gem. I could get into the Math of this, but I'm sleepy.

In conclusion, if you go to Arena Junkies you can look up the stat weights for PvP Power by spec, and you will see that it is weighted vastly higher for Sub than any other spec. I suspect this is largely in part to the high coefficients from on Backstab and Ambush as I tried to show you guys above.


Agility.

Finally decided to do some theory-crafting for Sub.
S12 Elite Gear gives a total of 9,604 Agi, 8,830 Pwr.
Enchants: Shoulder: 200, Chest: 80, LW Wrist: 500, Legs: 285, Boots: 140 = 1,205 Agi
Meta Gem: 216 Agi.

Total with Sinister Calling: 14333 Agi, 8,830 Pwr.
That gives an effective AP vs PvP target: 14333*2 + 14333*2*8830/265/100 = 38,218 AP

There is a total of 10 gems available. Socket bonus total is 180 Agi, 180 Pwr, 300 Resil.

10x 160 Agi gems will result in: 2080 Agi increase.
That gives an effective AP vs PvP target: (14333+2080)*2 + (14333+2080)*2*8830/265/100 = 43,764 AP

10x 320 Pwr gems will result in 3200 PvP Power increase.
That gives an effective AP vs PvP target: 14333*2 + 14333*2*(8830+3200)/265/100 = 41,679 AP

By keeping the sockets bonus using agi (R), agi/x (Y), agi/pwr (B) gems we get
43,522 AP.

Is 242 AP better than 300 resil? That's up to you.

So here you go, unless I am wrong somewhere, it's time to re-gem...


NERD FIGHT!!!!!!

(Sorry had to :P )
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90 Human Rogue
4625
11/27/2012 02:21 AMPosted by Starbûck
More pvp power you get the better agi is, the more agi you get the better pvp power is, only theory crafting that was needed was if it was worth to gem pvp power, that was answered at the release of MOP.


This ^
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100 Gnome Rogue
16245
11/27/2012 06:55 AMPosted by Timat
NERD FIGHT!!!!!!


ya ya ya lol
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100 Human Rogue
11300
Agility.

Finally decided to do some theory-crafting for Sub.
S12 Elite Gear gives a total of 9,604 Agi, 8,830 Pwr.
Enchants: Shoulder: 200, Chest: 80, LW Wrist: 500, Legs: 285, Boots: 140 = 1,205 Agi
Meta Gem: 216 Agi.

Total with Sinister Calling: 14333 Agi, 8,830 Pwr.
That gives an effective AP vs PvP target: 14333*2 + 14333*2*8830/265/100 = 38,218 AP

There is a total of 10 gems available. Socket bonus total is 180 Agi, 180 Pwr, 300 Resil.

10x 160 Agi gems will result in: 2080 Agi increase.
That gives an effective AP vs PvP target: (14333+2080)*2 + (14333+2080)*2*8830/265/100 = 43,764 AP

10x 320 Pwr gems will result in 3200 PvP Power increase.
That gives an effective AP vs PvP target: 14333*2 + 14333*2*(8830+3200)/265/100 = 41,679 AP

By keeping the sockets bonus using agi (R), agi/x (Y), agi/pwr (B) gems we get
43,522 AP.

Is 242 AP better than 300 resil? That's up to you.

So here you go, unless I am wrong somewhere, it's time to re-gem...


Sorry to necro a thread, but can we get a source for this? because if this is true it would be awesome. I loved agility stacking if only for the crit it gives.
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90 Undead Rogue
3595
I'm not a math-man, but you forget to take in consideration the increase CRIT chance AGILITY gives you, does is also important IMO
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100 Gnome Rogue
16245
I didnt forget but it is negligible. A 160 agility gem gives you around 208 agility as sub for a % crit bonus of .17%. At best this is a .17% overall damage increase over a sufficiently long time line so reworking the equation y2 for backstab gives.

y2= [2.75(X+29.7)(1.8) +1053)](1.0017) = (4.95X + 1200.02)(1.0017) = 4.96X + 1202.06

letting y1 = y2 and solving for x gives 3324 weapon DPS. Meaning that if you scroll over your MH weapon DPS in your Damage stats and its greater than that PVP power is going to be better. For example mine is 5700. Now this an argument for sustained damage, you could say that the crit gives you greater burst potential, however in PVP gear you have 10 sockets so thats a 1.5% crit increase for gemming all agility. So like i say negligible. I also didnt include calculations for MotW buff because you arent guaranteed to have that buff in your comp.
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100 Human Rogue
14295
This has been a subject of contention as I've been preparing a pvp faq. The developers of shadowcraft insist that pvp power is properly weighted in thier model. Yet it is half that listed on the AJ forums. And I'm unsure if either model is correct. I'm inclined to believe shadowcraft, but the pvp mode is so new I'm not sure it has been properly vetted.

The addative nature of agility/ap means it will be eventually overtaken by pvp power, but at what point and if we are that point is unclear to me.
Edited by Aeriwen on 1/11/2013 7:50 PM PST
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