Loot disputes-what makes a good master looter

90 Draenei Death Knight
4540
Hey fellow raiders, can you share what experiences you've had with loot disputes and how you have solved them?

Part of an issue I had in cata, was that we only had a few regular guildies raiding, and had to PUG quite a few members, but the few guildies that were with me, were getting mad, when people in the PUG were winning loot that they needed. But I was like, what option did I have, if I didn't set the rules to MS over OS, nobody would join the raid, and being fair on loot, is how I wanted to try and attract new members to raiding with my guild, but unfortunately, because one pug was quite rude to the guild tank, the guild tank rage-quit the guild at the time.

Also, was countdown on the loot roll, 3, 2, 1, and then 0 (when the dps that upset the tank rolled) and tank was going off like 'wtf there is no 0') and im like, blah, it was a pretty upsetting raid, that the person pugging was rude as hell, and I eventually did have to kick him, but tank was going off at me, why I was giving loot to a prick.

Anyway, these are situations I would like to avoid completely if I raid in cata, I am not that fussed about gear myself as much as progression personally. I just don't know what the right or wrong way to handle a situation as Master Looter is, and tbh, this is part of why I try and give master looter to someone else during a raid these days as I just hate taking the blame for when people go off.

I did tell my tank after that, look, if you want me to reserve gear for you over Pugs next time we go, please say so, and we can try that, but at that point, he had already left /cry. I don't want to make the mistakes in MOP, so I would be more than happy to listen to any advice or suggestions you guys have.
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90 Worgen Druid
16890
If you are having to use PuGs in your raids then you will probably have to keep using a /roll with MS>OS. I do not think there is any way around that otherwise the PuGs will not want to join you.

If your raiders are going to be worried about PuGs winning all the loot then just add a rule about how it is 1 item per raider until everyone has an item.

As for people going off... If they are a PuG then obviously kick them from the raid and blacklist them from future raids with you. If it is a raider then you need to consider having a serious discussion with leadership and the guild about what your goal in raiding is. If your raiders only raid to get loot then you will keep having these issues.

Having raiders that flip out on you over loot in a raid including PuGs is an issue that will not go away unless it is dealt with. They need to either learn to keep quiet when they don't get what they want or they need to be removed.
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90 Orc Warrior
17225
It really depends on the calibre of your raid. If you are an established, high-ranked (relative to your server at least) then you can throw your weight around when it comes to replacements. You are one of the few groups on the server capable of killing that many bosses; and people will likely beat down your door just to get the experience even if they have no chance at loot. If you are middle of the road or worse, then you will have to be more 'fair' to PUGs.

Regardless, it is extremely important to clearly communicate the loot rules prior to pulling and killing. Clarify how many pieces people are allowed to roll on (when I ran PUG raids in DS I made it so that people can only win one piece for MS unless uncontested), whether tokens count as separate, etc. Even details like to what number do you count down to is important. Tell your raiders that a fair loot roll system is fair; people's personalities and other attribute should have no bearing on whether they receive loot or not. If this is not agreeable then make adjustments... but again, clearly define these (in raid chat not just mumble or vent). If you are fair and upfront, then regardless of how 'ridiculous' your loot rules may be you are above board and will be fine.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
You're better off without the tank. It hurts short term, but long term you want someone who is level headed and can see outside of themselves.
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4 Undead Mage
0
People being obsessed and immature over game loot isn't something I would be blaming myself for and you can't fix stupid anyway so why bother?
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1 Human Priest
0
12/01/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Eliil
Part of an issue I had in cata, was that we only had a few regular guildies raiding, and had to PUG quite a few members, but the few guildies that were with me, were getting mad, when people in the PUG were winning loot that they needed.


This isn't a PUG issue, this is a guildie issue. Your guild members need to be reminded that (if you're like most guilds I know), Pugging is your primary form of recruitment. If you don't treat your pugs fairly, you'll find it increasingly hard to recruit on your realm as word of your reputation goes around the server.

12/01/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Eliil
but unfortunately, because one pug was quite rude to the guild tank, the guild tank rage-quit the guild at the time.


Two rules you need to implement immediately:
1. Pugs who are rude get an immediate kick. No discussion, no second chances. Don't force your guild team to raid with jerks.
2. Guild members who throw a hissy fit about loot get an immediate /gkick. Again, no discussions, no second chances. Don't force your pugs (and potential future guild members) to raid with jerks.

You seem to be under the impression that as a guild that still needs to pug, you're at the mercy OF your pugs' whims, personalities and attitudes. You're not. Make your loot rules clear and make your behavior tolerance clear. Warn offensive behavior once, if you wish, but never more than that.

12/01/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Eliil
I did tell my tank after that, look, if you want me to reserve gear for you over Pugs next time we go, please say so, and we can try that, but at that point, he had already left /cry.


I would be very careful about setting the expectation that you'll 'reserve' loot for your guild members for current content. Pugs deserve the same chance at loot as your guild members. *Some* guilds can get away with attaching performance expectations to the ability to win loot (ie: if your DPS is too low, you don't get loot) but your guild doesn't sound like the type of guild that can get away with that type of rule.

Here's a macro I use for our loot rules when we end up with pugs in the raid:

/raid~*~*LOOT RULES*~*~
/raid 1 epic and 1 tier piece per person
/raid Patterns/recipes must be learned immediately
/raid BOE gear goes to the guild bank
/raid Disenchanting items go to the guild bank


We spam that before the first pull, ask if anyone has any questions and then carry on.

12/01/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Eliil
I just don't know what the right or wrong way to handle a situation as Master Looter is, and tbh, this is part of why I try and give master looter to someone else during a raid these days as I just hate taking the blame for when people go off.


We do run with Master Loot set and use it because the ML interface makes everything easier than sifting through /roll spam. We have noticed, however, that having ML set this way makes it very important to link the dropped items in raid chat so that people can decide whether they want to use a Charm of Good Fortune before that dialog box disappears.

As far as 'not wanting to take the blame', you're looking at it the wrong way. You're not taking the blame, you're taking RESPONSIBILITY and there's a huge difference between the two. As long as you've made your loot rules clear and treated everyone fairly, you've done your job.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6780
12/01/2012 07:56 PMPosted by Tyrnyx
If your raiders are going to be worried about PuGs winning all the loot then just add a rule about how it is 1 item per raider until everyone has an item.


Yep, that is what we did in alt runs.

If your getting to the point when raiders only need say one piece of gear from a raid instance, the raid can indicate up front that one piece of gear goes to this player AND this player will not be rolling main spec on any other gear.

You can also ask your guild members to come up with loot rules for the raid in a discussion. Just make sure you state the loot rules:
- must not be overly complicated
- consistent long term
- if tracking should to be done, the people suggesting that must also do the tracking/recording

Some times asking others to come up with a good idea, and be involved makes them feel like they have some say in the matter.
But if someone can't come up with loot rules that make sense for the raid then you got someone that is not willing to work as a team member (on this aspect) and they really should go solo.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
12/02/2012 04:39 AMPosted by Tinkaping
This isn't a PUG issue, this is a guildie issue. Your guild members need to be reminded that (if you're like most guilds I know), Pugging is your primary form of recruitment. If you don't treat your pugs fairly, you'll find it increasingly hard to recruit on your realm as word of your reputation goes around the server.


I agree if your guildies do not want to share loot with a pug then "THEY" need to get to work on recruiting players to the guild.

They are sitting around Whinning about having to give loots to pug raiders and yet what have they done to fix the problem as they see it? I suspect nothing.

Tell them in clear terms they have three choices

1. Recruit like heck and fill in the gaps

2. Use pugs and accept that they are going to have compete with the pugs for gear

3. Do not raid at all until they have enough for an all guild raid.

Those are their options, they can like it or leave

As to the pug who was rude to the tank.. judging from the tanks over reaction I would want to bet the pug really was not that rude blunt maybe, but out right nasty rude doubtfull. I suspect Mr Tank was just over sensitive or he seesm to think he needs extra
special treatment just because he is tanking ( Yes I have seen players who get an attitude,) esp when they are in a position of greater responsibility, somemtimes they get an air of entitlement, and when that happens I let them know that they are not irreplaceable No one is irreplaceable.. so tanks that have that kind of attitude either mend their ways or they do not last long with me.

If a player guildie or pug is rude to any member while in the raid, you should be prepared to remove that player even a guildie.. a pug raider- simply blacklist him and do not ever bring him back. A rude guildie well I would talk to him and then give him one more chance, he has another problem then it is not just removal from the raid but the guild as well

Find a new tank.. Your old tanks attitude was already bad and he may have been the poison apple who was affecting your other raiders.. meaning he was the original person who was pissed at pugs getting loot and was vocal about it to other guildies who initially had no problem but because he was upset they too are now unhappy... It does not take long for one bad apple to spoil the rest.. I suspect your ex tank was the bad apple... good luck
Edited by Ssinfull on 12/2/2012 9:39 AM PST
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90 Draenei Death Knight
4540
Yes, that's what happened really, the tank complained to others in the guild, and when another guildie, one of the healers asked the tank why they had left, the healer was saying things to me like, "aren't most guilds meant to help each other out, why give loot to a PUG especially when saying nasty things to the tank, the way I see it, most guilds, give gear to their guildies FIRST". Personally, the whole thing was making my head spin, I was like, the bosses are being downed, the gear you get is great, but at the time, I was just relieved that it wasn't a wipe fest anymore as the tank actually knew what they were doing.

The PUG in question at the time, was saying things to the tank like "oh you such a fail tank" and the tank was getting all upset over it, the way I saw it, why let those comments get to you, if you're proving that person wrong, by downing the bosses in the raid? So I guess at the time, I wasn't that appreciative of how much the tanks feelings were being hurt. But loot disputes are always a mess, and yes, many of the comments are correct, I've had a bit of a reputation on my raiding toon, but one positive comment I get from members of other guilds are "at least she isn't a ninjar looter during raids, like others I know" and that's a rep I definitely want to keep lol.
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90 Draenei Priest
17345
Your guildmates need to understand that if it weren't for the PuGs in the group they wouldn't have had a chance at the loot at all. If someone is in the "team" that downs a boss, in-guild or not, they should get a chance to roll on any items that drop.

One suggestion from above that I agree with is MS>OS, 1 item/1 Token per person per raid (until everyone has won something). This way everyone knows that you're using a "share the wealth" type system. Make sure you actually adhere to the MS>OS rule. I can't be completely sure from your post, but it sounds as though your Tank rolled on an OS piece and got upset that a DPS won for MS? A bit of clarification on that?

As far as your healers question...I've not come across many guilds in my time who don't allow PuGs to roll on items. As stated before, if a player is part of the group that helped down a boss they have the same "right" as everyone else to roll on any items that drop for their class/spec.

I wouldn't start reserving items for guild members only, especially if you have to PuG several spots every week. This is a sure way to ensure you won't be able to PuG, in turn making your few guild members unable to raid at all. Everyone "needs" items that are upgrades, including the PuGs. Your guild members are not exclusive in that.

PuGing is a great way to recruit, but if you have several jerks in the group it defeats the purpose. You don't want ANY rude players in your group, but if you choose to allow them to stay they should be eligible for loot. Their attitude doesn't change the fact that they assisted in downing the boss.

Best of luck to you!
Edited by Malorey on 12/3/2012 8:04 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
5980
12/02/2012 11:08 PMPosted by Eliil
The PUG in question at the time, was saying things to the tank like "oh you such a fail tank" and the tank was getting all upset over it, the way I saw it, why let those comments get to you, if you're proving that person wrong, by downing the bosses in the raid?


Unless you specifically want a raid environment where people accuse each other of failing, you NEED to tell the person being a jerk to can it, and kick them if they don't. This kind of environment is toxic to most people and, like your tank, they will leave if they are expected to put up with insults all the time. This doesn't just apply to your guild mates; if I was PUGing and saw that someone was allowed to keep insulting other people, I'd presume that was your guild's policy and lose interest. The fact that it was a non-guild member insulting a guild member actually makes it look more like policy (since PUGs usually get less slack on behavior).

And like sub said, screwing over people by lying about loot rules will lead to lots of problems for your guild, and it doesn't appear that you're doing well enough to offer people a 'you can raid with us, but are secondary on loot' deal.
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90 Human Paladin
10305

The PUG in question at the time, was saying things to the tank like "oh you such a fail tank" and the tank was getting all upset over it, the way I saw it, why let those comments get to you, if you're proving that person wrong, by downing the bosses in the raid? So I guess at the time, I wasn't that appreciative of how much the tanks feelings were being hurt. But loot disputes are always a mess, and yes, many of the comments are correct, I've had a bit of a reputation on my raiding toon, but one positive comment I get from members of other guilds are "at least she isn't a ninjar looter during raids, like others I know" and that's a rep I definitely want to keep lol.


Some frustration's inevitable and tolerable, especially if someone keeps messing up a certain mechanic. We've all seen it. On the one hand, you don't want to sit there and listen to your teammate get chewed out...and on the other, you understand WHY he or she is getting chewed out. You're in a raid and have to perform a role. Criticism's expected.

But based on what you wrote, it seems as if the language used was not constructive and likely unwarranted (as if that matters). A PUG calling out your tank as a "fail"? You say he said things like that, so I'm sure it didn't stop at that. If anyone talked to me like that -especially on Vent - either he or I would be dropping the group. There would be no discussion about it. It's embarrassing to the tank and to everyone else listening to it. In my mind, this thread isn't about a loot dispute so much as it is about your raiding environment: only he knows for sure, but I'm betting that the tank didn't quit because of the loot roll - it was the way he was being disrespected. You and your guild sat by and did nothing while he was insulted in front of all his peers. Why would I want to raid in a guild like that?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
12/02/2012 11:08 PMPosted by Eliil
The PUG in question at the time, was saying things to the tank like "oh you such a fail tank" and the tank was getting all upset over it, the way I saw it, why let those comments get to you, if you're proving that person wrong, by downing the bosses in the raid?


The problem here is the pug was acting inappropriate.. it is one thing to offer usefull constructive criticism but another thing to bait a person..

Frankly I think the real reason the tank was upset was over the loot issue, if he had gotten his loot he would not have really cared about what the Pug said or did not say.

that said, the first time the pug baited the tank ie said you fail.. I would have publicly told him that kind of talk is not accepted in the raid.

Normally I like to handle things privately but since the pug voiced this in Open guild chat or vent, you also need to be letting him know in open guild chat /vent that kind of talk is not tolerated, so that your guildies can see you do support them

Pugs have to understand that while they do share in our loot, they are guests in our raids and if they take a dump on a guildie, they will not be invited back.

Constructive criticism is always welcome, and let everyone know that it is,,,But it will not be given in the middle of the raid. If you have some to give it will wait til the post raid meeting and then it can be discussed

The Tank and some of your guildies need to understand as I have said before they will have to share the loot with pugs as long as a pug is in the raid, if they want to keep all loot to guildies only then they need to recruit.

But pugs need to understand they are guests, and should conduct themselves properly , Pg raiders that can not conduct themselves properly need to be removed immediately and never invited back..

The pug raider who was baiting your tank is one such pug raider you should neve re invite to your raids ever.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10490
Did you let a pug dps roll on tanking gear that's why he rage quit because he didn't see the "0" countdown?

If the tank was bear and dps was cat then the highest roller should've won (the gear is identical I believe for bear/cat". Then of course they should be tankful for even raiding because without a pug you won't have enough people to pull dps to make the boss die
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90 Human Warrior
16760
Yes, that's what happened really, the tank complained to others in the guild, and when another guildie, one of the healers asked the tank why they had left, the healer was saying things to me like, "aren't most guilds meant to help each other out, why give loot to a PUG especially when saying nasty things to the tank, the way I see it, most guilds, give gear to their guildies FIRST". Personally, the whole thing was making my head spin, I was like, the bosses are being downed, the gear you get is great, but at the time, I was just relieved that it wasn't a wipe fest anymore as the tank actually knew what they were doing.

The PUG in question at the time, was saying things to the tank like "oh you such a fail tank" and the tank was getting all upset over it, the way I saw it, why let those comments get to you, if you're proving that person wrong, by downing the bosses in the raid? So I guess at the time, I wasn't that appreciative of how much the tanks feelings were being hurt. But loot disputes are always a mess, and yes, many of the comments are correct, I've had a bit of a reputation on my raiding toon, but one positive comment I get from members of other guilds are "at least she isn't a ninjar looter during raids, like others I know" and that's a rep I definitely want to keep lol.


We occassionally have to pug people in. We ocassionally lose gear - good gear that our members have been after for a while - to a pug. I let my players vent in /gchat a bit. But then I remind them that we are in a 10 man raid and that pug is 1 of the 10. They contributed.

I then also remind them (if needed) that nearly every single one of them came to the guild as a pug. If not direclty as a pug, then another member joined as a pug and invited their friend in.

As for the pugs treatment of your tank, that rests squarely on him for doing it and squarely on you for allowing it. First rude comment I give people a warning and let them know what we expect in our runs. Second rude comment they get a good, swift /remove from the group. Even if it means we end up going back to /trade to sit another 15 mins looking a new pug.

However, these days we rarely get pugs who act like that. From the moment I invite a pug into the raid I treat him as if he's been a guildie raiding with us for ever. We're a vocal group who likes to joke around and have fun and we make sure to include pugs in our jokes.

Its up to you to set the standard for your runs and up to your raid team to uphold those standards. This whole incident is nearly 100% avoidable for the future. You have a good start sticking to good, pug friendly loot rules. Now make work on your raid environment some more. It may already be good and this was just an aberration, but it can always be better.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
4540
Sorry it took me a while to get back to this, glad I tracked this thread down! Malorey, that's the way I see it as well, thing is, I think a guild out there, that has all 10 guildies showing up all the time, in a very committed raid schedule, where pugging a few players from time to time, is a rare thing.

In regards to the "putting up with insults" I guess because I've been trolled quite a lot on the net, I have a reasonably thick skin, so if someone was making fun of me for being a bad tank or whatever, would just continue to do what I'm doing. Part of the issue I have, is that it's often hard to even get someone to go raiding at all, so on most servers I'm on where I have to PUG, i simply have to take someone that's likely to swear at me, and carry on, and am kind of just used to it. If they are helping me down a raid boss, I don't care personally what they say. They can boast about "carrying" me all they like, it has little affect on me, it's only when people make things PERSONAL that it becomes an issue. Thing is, I HATE having to go back to trade to recruit people to PUG for a raid, so I guess that's why I was content to put up with it, but judging on what people have said here, it's clear to me, that other players might be a touch more sensitive in this area than myself.

I should add though, that the way I tried to handle at the time, was by pointing out to the PUG was that my guild tank had successfully got the guild through the raid on most weeks with no drama. But yes, I should have been firmer. It's just really hard, because putting up with people that aren't necessarily that friendly, but pull great dps, is a very common situation.
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90 Night Elf Druid
16015
To solve your issue :

1. Recruit more members and weed out those who aren't consistent. When you'll see repeat behavior when a raider starts posting on raid night :

today - family in town
tomorrow - my birthday
day after tomorrow - gf birthday

then the raider will magically appear when the boss is on farm status and will roll on loot with those who have spent time learning the encounter and wiped for hours.

2. Once you recruit have 1-2 back up raiders. There are people out there who are very casual yet they do show up sometimes

3. Enforce EPGP system. I didn't know about this system till my last guild. I think that system is just wonderful. It eliminates drama and rewards those who devote their time and committed.

For example, let's say you are a tank who's after a tanking trinket that hasn't dropped yet in weeks. One raid your 2nd tank doesn't show up so he doesn't earn EPGP. Next week he's back and the trinket drops and you are like OMG it finally dropped. Both tanks are drooling over it. Who's going to get it? One with higher priority on EPGP.

EPGP is an addon and very easy to manage. Just go to curse and download epgp and epgp loot master. I hope all guilds will use it some time.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6780
12/04/2012 10:18 AMPosted by Elvinna
3. Enforce EPGP system. I didn't know about this system till my last guild. I think that system is just wonderful. It eliminates drama and rewards those who devote their time and committed.


It can work well. If a guild is pugging though that complicates the process and they need to have a plan for that.
Edited by Wrathbrow on 12/4/2012 11:34 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
16760
12/04/2012 09:55 AMPosted by Eliil
In regards to the "putting up with insults" I guess because I've been trolled quite a lot on the net, I have a reasonably thick skin,


This is not a matter of you putting up with insults. Its a matter of your tank doing it. And whether he has a thick skin or is more sensitive is irrelevant. He is your guildie. You should be sticking up for him, whether he's offended or not.

If you are having issues keeping people, I'd start right here. It does not sound like a great guild culture. Sounds like every man for himself and unity be damned. Not what a lot of people look for in a guild.
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