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This thread is meant to gather and store opinions on the continued decline of 25m raiding guilds. There are numerous debates about which is more difficult, yet one thing remains constant- 25s are dying and 10s are growing exponentially.
MoP brought us another helping of what we got in Cata, only this time its without the raid-wide max-stat feast, cauldrons, or summons. (Oh hey, thanks for the +1 piece of loot, though). Do you 25m raiders out there think that adding 1 piece of loot was enough to stall the decline of 25m raiding?
I, personally, still see many 25m raiding guilds disbanding and 10m guilds spawning... leading one to believe that 25m raiding has not been appropriately incentivized as Blizzard has mentioned they want to do. So what would it take to grow the 25 player raiding community again? What do you believe is more epic, daunting, and within those parameters challenging and fun? What incentives would you provide if you were Blizzard?
All thoughts, opinions, and discussion are welcome.
Guilds die all the time.
There are a ton of guilds dying right now due to whatever reason.
10s are easier to start than 25s, so more 10s are being built from the leftovers.
The only reason 25s are "dying" is because less former 25man raiders are building 25s after the old ones die than the amount of raiders building new 10s.
Trying to throw incentives at raiders in 25s isn't going to fix any issue. The burden is on the leaders. Allowing things like cross-realm 25man raiding for the current tier to make testing apps faster, or other leadership based incentives are the only thing that "may" work.
As was identified by Blizzard itself, the main hurdle to 25 man raiding is NOT player interest or incentive; but LEADERSHIP incentives. Why should I, someone who leads raids and a guild, bother with 25 man raiding? Do I get any benefit out of doing about 10x as much work? The answer is... not much.
Until this problem is solved 25 man raiding will remain unpopular despite many people who want to do them (but lack the ability or dedication to lead).
Giving 25-mans a couple free transfer slots to trial recruits (and if they stick then the fee needs to be paid) would help somewhat for a 25m's biggest hurdle, which is recruiting. We all know that in order to maintain a solid guild you always need to be recruiting, and this is especially true in a 25m environment. Of course there are challenges to make sure that system isn't gamed, but I'm sure it's solvable.
I would also be in favor of giving free consumables to 25-mans in the form of one of food or flasks (not pots) raid-wide just for raiding in the format.
The usual suggestions of extra loot or separated lockouts are not going to solve anything other than create dissent in the 10-man crowd. Anything that artificially inflates loot acquisition rate in 25 really irks 10-mans, especially since 25s already have the option to simply drop to 10 with more geared toons to clear content when they cannot do so in their format simply to maintain a server/US ranking.
Pros to be on 25 man raiding team
- more loot dropping (people gearing up faster)
- more slots to fill with roles (not "we already have a feral druid crap)
- funner environment
- boss encounter is more difficult (more people = more mistakes)
Cons of 25 man raiding team
- over recruiting (having people raid summoning stone)
- requires commitment from more people
- more people making mistakes (micro managing some)
- chance for more drama over loot/sitting
25 man raiding is still active at higher level progression guilds, even though not as high as 10 man.
It is the guilds where progression is not high that 25 man raiding has dropped like a rock.
The casual guilds tend to be, well more casual, and less strict on organization and that often does not translate well for the small increase in loot drops at the same level versus the extra level of organizational effort by the leaders.
Slight increases in incentives like an extra loot piece have not changed that trend and additional incentives probably won't make much difference.
The only thing I know that would make much difference is a higher ilvl of gear or items in 25 man not available in 10 man for all of the raid members even though it is the organizers that have the bulk majority of the work. And that would really not set well with those that raid 10 man.
I hope and agree with you about this. My question still remains what can they do? The numbers don't lie, and all the posters in this thread have been true to the point, 25m raids are declining rapidly. The ease of setting up a 10m is entirely logistical, and you can't necessarily combat that across different raid environments.
Perhaps making buffs stronger while in a 25m raid instance? Possibly grant the raiders in a 25m lockout a longer duration on food, potion, flask durations as a start.
Some of these suggestions might help for a short term, but I don't see them helping long term or being implemented.
I remember back where 10 and 25 were not shared lockouts. So people that wanted to progress felt the need to run each of them each week, and if the ilvl is the same would be even more so. We know that 25 man raiding lacks participation at non-progression levels, so it would help there. I for one don't want to go back to that of doing the same damn boss each week in 10 and 25.
Cross-realm transfers would probably peek interest for a while, but after a month or two would probably drop off. I've only seen a few posts from people indicating that they would love to raid 25 man but can't find a guild and money is the main issue.
25 mans already provide more buffs from a class/buff ability (more likely to get all 8 in a 25 man). Feasts and cauldrons scaled well before.
Pets and mounts. The game has a zillion of them. It might appeal to a few people but really don't think that is major decision factor for raiding.
Few of these things really address the reasons for less 25 man raiding, organizational effort and dealing with more people for the same level of rewards. The meat and potatoes of the game is progression and upgraded gear: quests to 5 man dungeons, to heroic dungeons, to LFR, to raiding. At the point of raiding the choice between 10 and 25 end in terms of progression and gear, as both do fairly close to the same.
25 man already gives more loot per person, easier to get a mix of buffs and classes, and even feels in some cases more epic (so some have said). None of those sorta nice things long term add up to much. You want sorta nice things or more powerful gear rewards. The majority want more powerful gear rewards and 10 mans are simpler to organize for that to happen.
Adding to the discussion.
If part of the issue is organizational, it might ease the difference in 10 versus 25 man if the organizers of both 10 and 25 man raids had some improved tools.
Player/toon swapping seems more common in 25 mans for addressing AFK's, disconnects and need for changing tanks, healers, dps, etc.
So a tool that allowed the raid leaders to click and move people out of the instance would work well. Likewise mass summons is a tool to get people playing the game, why that is gone is now a pain for 25 mans and in the odd chance no locks in the raid, it is just a blockage.
The game desperately needs a better guild recruitment tool. Look at the job search/posting web sites give some really good examples of how to do that right. Blizzard could even make an agreement with a 3rd party and the use of API calls to make recruitment a much improved experience.
An base loot tracking system would help so that everyone in the raid could bring up a list of loot and appropriate fit for class to person for the assignment, so that when a raid uses their loot system, the distribution is simpler for the loot master, and simpler for the players. This could be a toggle view of all loot or loot to a specific toon. They already have the class/spec to gear database that is used for LFR as a basis.
I've ran my guild (Tyranny on Shattered Hand, 10/16H US #37) for five years as of this coming February. We've been a hardcore progression guild the entire time. We never stopped and I never stopped. In that time I've recruited hundreds of people. I think I have a unique perspective.
I am sure a company that makes thinking of its customers all as the scum of the earth when it relies on continued subscriptions is going to fly off the ground really nicely.
So making people happy by giving them a mode of the game they enjoy is bad and forcing them to do something they don't want to do for the sake of progression is good. Fantastic logic.
Why not make people PvP for the best gear instead? That makes about as much sense.
I highlighted a few statements that i agree with in your post.
But i have a question in relation to an opinion you raised.
Are all of the higher population servers also the servers with a higher number of 25M raiding guilds ?
Also is it possible that it is the server population that draws in the 25M raiding guilds ?
Or is it the presence of a more vibrant 25M raiding community that draws in more players ?
The idea that every 10man is the island and that not having 25s on a realm hurts community is a wild exaggeration.
Unless "server community" is only defined by the sheer number of players, it makes no sense to act as if 25s are the main part of building community. Community comes from the players themselves, not the size of raid they do.
Larger realms have easier times building 25mans. Larger realms have an easier time building community because of increased player interaction. That does not mean that 25mans build server community.
There are plenty examples of realms with healthy communities that have one or no 25mans.
10mans have only been clearly easier for one tier out of the four that have been released since they became a viable raiding option. The path of least resistance may be true for logistic issues, but those logistic issues do not warrant giving 25s more loot or better loot to force players who clearly prefer 10s back into them.
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