25m Raiding - RIP?

90 Worgen Druid
17215
25s do force people to interact. But generally they are interacting within their own guild.

Realm community is built by guilds interacting with the realm. A 25man may be more likely to interact with the realm if they are recruiting off of it, but they also have the chance to not interact with it at all.

Some of the realms with the most well known communities are realms that are not known for raiding (the big RP realms) or are realms known for other things (Proudmoore's LGBT atmosphere).

I think that it is a thing of the past to believe that 25s are community based and 10s are islands. Generally it is the large social guilds that do not raid who are more likely to foster community on realms.

More and more 10man guilds are large parts of the community, and it is easy to see that on many realms. Just consider that in MoP a 10man guild is far more likely to band up with other 10mans to take down world bosses than a 25man guild which may not even need the extra players.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
tys
9350
The thing is, it's very subjective for a person to say that 25 man offers a "better social" experience. There are 10 mans out there that have been around for years for example.

In fact, it could be argued that a 10 man is even more tightly knit (the more stable ones) than a 25 man in that regard in that success relies more closely on the social bond that you describe. In a 25 man, assuming a roster of 30-35 people, well, you may not know everyone. Plus they are more often than not in a constant state of recruitment. There's a core in most guilds of about 10-15 people and the rest are less stable.

The suggestions here posted for the most part are more or less forcing around 80% of the WoW raiding community that chooses 10 mans to raid 25 man (through a higher iLevel for example). I think that as hard as it is for 25 mans lovers to come to terms with this, it's not that the majority of 10 man raiders want to raid 25 man, it's that they choose to do so and that many of the officers responsible for managing many of the 25 man guilds either choose to stop or go 10 man.

25 man I hope will continue to exist. But I believe that it must stand on its own. It should only attract people that genuinely want 25 man over 10 man rather than forced to due to say, higher item levels.
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Paladin
6780
IMO social interaction is when people actively interact converse on a repeating basis with each other beyond saying hello, gratz and bye. Simply being with a group of people is not in and of itself social interaction. The size of the group is mostly coincidental. It is the make up and mix of individuals that determine how many and whom they converse with on a regular basis. I've seen very lonely people in very large groups and very socially interactive ones, same for small groups.
Both 10 and 25 man groups of people are large enough that for many people the real social interaction, where people communicate more frequently with enjoyment with each other typically happens on a smaller scale. You have all probably seen it where a group of five or so people that may at times be part of a larger group will form those more rare stronger bonds within a larger group.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
1510
It was pretty obvious this was going to happen when they gave the same rewards to 10 man as 25 man. Of course people will prefer the easy solution.

Part of the WOW factor of BT, SSC Tk, etc was that you could get this bad !@# gear no one else had. And to get that gear you had to get 25 people together and down bosses, in a challenging environment.

Then in Wrath they made it so it was just better 10 man loot, if you ran 25s, and all the sudden every player was decked out the same give or take the extra few stat points on 25 gear (or if they PVPd)

People don't like to admit gear is a big part of this game, but it is, and if you threw in new armor models (NOT RECOLORS) for 25's I guarantee you'd see them rise in popularity.

But alas, Blizzard would never make another set of armor that was not reachable by anyone, so that kinda ends that thought right there.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warrior
16760
12/10/2012 08:09 AMPosted by Subrosian
If Blizz splits the lockouts again and gives 25s higher iLvL gear, there won't be real 10-man progression.


Here's step 1, though - splitting the lockouts. If lockouts were split, that change alone would be enough for me to switch back to 25's on my guild. But its not enough for most people. There does need to be SOMETHING to incentivize people who would organize 25 mans. Whether it be mounts that drop only in 25, crafting patterns, pets, achievements. I'm not sure exactly what the best option is, though.

However, there is something else that is going to make 25's even more difficult. LFR. Quite simply ever since lfr has been put into the game, pugging has gotten harder and harder to do. There's less people in the city and /trade to see "lfm for MSV run." And now that they've improved lfr, made it a bit better to run and there are more of them its even worse. Even in DS we could scrape together a 25 man pug if we did about a weeks worth of advertising ahead of time with message boards, constant trade messages and working with another guild.

Now with lfr and dailies and pet battles and so many other things keeping people active and out in the world I'm not so sure going to 25 and being faced with potentially having to pug even 4-5 people is anymore alluring, no matter what incentives are there.

I think most everything I've named is an overall improvement to the game and definitely a good thing but this is the negative side effect. Its going to take a lot to convince people to start putting together 25's again.
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Paladin
6780
Special mounts.
Special design/look for gear.
Gizmo's.
Achievements.
Companions.
This is a short list of things that would not inspire me at all. I don't raid for those reasons, they are nice if they happen is all. I don't think I'm along with that. I don't think that is uncommon or would would see more people looking for guilds and stating that is one of their interest.
The game has more mounts that all do basically the same thing.
Transmog gear to your hearts delight.

Why do most people that are not in the top 10 percent progression wise raid?
Killing bosses, the gear and the challenge of accomplishing that.

As soon as any incentive becomes strong enough to get more people raiding 25, it becomes strong enough for others to say it is getting closer to feeling like it is forcing them (I would say pressuring) to raid 25.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
13615
I think the game would be better if they went back to one raid size. I don't know what the best size is, but it should be larger than 10.

I don't know how many subs Blizz would lose if they did this, at least in the short term.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warlock
12535
12/07/2012 09:01 AMPosted by Tyrnyx
25s do force people to interact. But generally they are interacting within their own guild.

I agree with this statement. I spent all of BC in decently high end 25m guilds (T4-T6 in <Vanquish> on Staghelm - US 80th, and Sunwell in <Nether> on Sen'jin - US 15th), and I can count on one hand the number of people I knew outside my guild. From my experiences, 25m guilds don't foster server community simply by being 25m guilds.

I also agree that the leadership of 25m guilds could use some more incentives to keep running on the recruitment treadmill to stay 25m rather than taking the easy way out and going 10m when things get rough. Raiders show up to raid regardless of the size format, so any sort of incentive introduced should be exclusive to guild leadership as they're the ones who bear the burden of keeping their guild going.

For what it's worth, I say this as someone who has lead both 10m and 25m raid guilds.
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Paladin
6780
I think the game would be better if they went back to one raid size. I don't know what the best size is, but it should be larger than 10.

I don't know how many subs Blizz would lose if they did this, at least in the short term.


In the past I thought multiples of 5 made good sense, based on turning dungeon groups in to raids. But it seems that with the auto grouping for 5 mans and that the same 5 man toons/people are now always the same mix for a raid, even within a guild, that logic is less of an issue.

I do feel that one raid size would potentially help (but at the loss to those that want larger or smaller raids), and would guess it would take a little less development and refinement time to balance instances for both (which can never fully happen).

But all that said, what really are 10 mans lacking that would make a difference if a few more slots were added to them?
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
13615

But all that said, what really are 10 mans lacking that would make a difference if a few more slots were added to them?


More class/spec diversity, which leads to more flexibility in designing raid encounters. Remember fights that required a ranged tank (mage tank on Maulgar, etc.)?

Less chance of sharding a bunch of loot because RNG was bad. This one is less important than the diversity issue.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
12025
The idea of separate lockouts just makes me cringe, mostly because I remember "needing" to do both the lockouts every week. Even when in a 10strict guild as I was for most of Wrath, a few of us a week would do GDKP runs because 25 man had a trinket we needed or whatever. Separate lockouts with the same loot won't solve this, and separate lockouts with better or different loot will just make it worse.

I like the idea of going back to the way things were in vanilla and bc: Different raids were different sizes.

This time though, they should do them in numbers that are divisible. By that I mean, 10 mans and 20 mans, or 15 mans and 30 mans.

In this way, your guild could run 20 man instance A and B together, and 10 man instance A with 2 separate teams comprised of your 20 man team. Everyone can participate, and guilds can choose to tackle the larger raids or not as their population deems fit. There will be no, we are doing ZA with 2 teams this weekend, sorry Tom, Joe, Dick, Larry, Sally, you have to sit.

There will be no "only 25s are progression" or "10 man only raiders don't compete." There will be only one lockout for each raid.

I also think LFR achieves should be separate from normal raid achieves. :x
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
17215
12/14/2012 04:24 PMPosted by Subrosian
But all that said, what really are 10 mans lacking that would make a difference if a few more slots were added to them?


The full social experience of being an MMO.

The requirement to coordinate with a group in order to clear content "bigger" than yourself.

The experience of working with a huge team to take down an impossible undertaking.

The feeling of being a part of a powerful group of monster hunters.


Those are opinions. And many people feel differently about it.

A "truer" raid experience is nothing but a meaningless label that people pick because it fits their opinion. 10 and 25 really small and not very different compared to the original 40 in WoW, compared to 72 in Everquest, or compared to 500+ in EvE (which can get as high as the mid 3000s).
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Paladin
6780
The full social experience of being an MMO.

The requirement to coordinate with a group in order to clear content "bigger" than yourself.

The experience of working with a huge team to take down an impossible undertaking.

The feeling of being a part of a powerful group of monster hunters.


The LFR experience is showing to newer players that 25 mans are a mob of people with little coordination, bear through it, and join and leave the large group as fast as they can. I raid 25 man on my main and still like it, but when I talk with other players often the response is: why bother, just do it with 10 man so much simpler and less people to have deal with and just go with a fewer people you like.

Many of us that are of the old guard and way of thinking I suspect in the current environment going to become fewer as time moves on. With more people seeing an MMO as a place with millions of people that allows them to not care about most of them, or tolerate them, or be annoyed by them and get through what needs to be done and then get back to their closer group in 10 man experience.

There larger social experience is facebook, with hundreds or thousands of friends, that are mostly added and dropped as the moment sees fit.
We see this at most work places too. Groups of a few people tend to go out to lunch together or other activity, and it is the less common larger grouping to simply acknowledge other people, get to know a bit about them, and then back to the closer groups.

10 man raids seems to satisfy for many people being able to have a generally good mix of classes and abilities (not all, but that is not the goal of most people) and to feel to most people like a large team that is still small enough to keep tighter socially (person to person socially).
Reply Quote
87 Orc Death Knight
5570
While my raid experience is limited, I believe I have some input.

All my raiding was done in 10-man groups and I never felt short-sheeted in the four categories that Subrosian said I was. I always felt epic when we downed a new boss.

That said, as a newer player, less than three years, I would like to see the idea that Fluffy posited about the 10/20 or 15/30 man raids for different instances. That would keep both raids from running the same old boss, albeit at what may be different difficulty levels.

When the new raids drop we would see new 10 man bosses and new 20 man bosses and they would not mix. This is an interesting idea.
Reply Quote
4 Undead Mage
0
When people complained that pvp and dungeon queue times were too long, the perfect solution was to merge dungeon and pvp servers to get more players in queues. This came with the perhaps uninteded yet completely predictable consequence of degrading one of the prime socializing aspects of an MMORPG.

Since then, the whole situation has progressed beyond full mental midgetry and since organic community development has been a subjected to layers upon layers of intervention for the sake of convenience, its going to feel "forced" as some have said.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]