A gladiator's view on the Dk current state

100 Human Death Knight
12140
Here is what needs to happen to Dk's to help Dk's out in arena, and I'll give reasons why. The first section is skip-able, but many people on these forums automatically assume that everyone else is an idiot. I put this here so that you may see that I might have an idea about what I'm talking about.

I've been thinking about my class and where I'd like to see it go for a while now. I've seen many threads about Dk's lately, and how people are upset with them. Not everyone seems to have the right idea of how to fix them, and I feel what I've brainstormed up is at least a good start in the right direction.

My Experience

Not looking to make Dk's overpowered, but while I've hit 2200 and obtained my weapon, arena on this character is flat out upsetting, and its not enjoyable to play. I've re-rolled warrior and got 2200 fairly quickly, starting in the 3rd week of MoP's release, and hit 2200 as a subpar comp (TSG) with only 4 pieces of malevolent including T1 weapon. Having played both classes to 2200 this season, I can say that warrior is just flat out more fun. I don't get upset like I do playing a Dk, and its not nearly as stressful.
As far as experience outside of this season, I've obtained gladiator and hero on my Dk.

What Dk's lack

Sticking to melee here. If you look at most other classes in general, in MoP, most of these other melee classes (and classes overall) have had significant overhauls with the launch of 5.0.
Warrior for instance, is a very different class than it was in Cataclysm. This is true for warlock, and enhance and feral have had rather hefty changes to them as well, making them feel different overall.
Death knight, however is the same as were were in Cataclysm. Our rune system is the same, as far as talents go, we have not gained anything new, exciting or interesting other than out level 90 talents, which don't actually provide damage, and are mediocre at best. Gorefiend's grasp is great in RBG's when properly set up with other classes, but as a stand alone talent, its useless.

What Dk's need to become more interesting, viable, and most of all, fun

To put it short and simple, Death knights lack a few things. Mobility, crowd control, and survivability against physical damage.
In my opinion, there are a few things that should be swapped out, and a few things that should be redesigned and reworked.

Death's Advance - Death's advance was originally implemented back when RLS a dominant comp. Specifically rogues (and other classes as well) sat on Dk's all, game every game, because when slowed, they couldn't do anything. Last expansion, frost was considered a gimp spec when it didn't have the heavy damage it did during season 9, because it was locked down too easily. Unholy had deaths advance, and I believe that this should be a core, baseline part of the death knight class. It may be removed as a talent, and something more interesting can be placed in to compete with Chillblains.

Strangulate - This was a fantastic ability during Wotlk, and in some cases, cataclysm (mainly the Cataclysm glyph), back when there was overall less instant CC in the game, the class had the old version of blood tap to provide that rune that is required to use strangulate.
In its current form, the spell is outdated. It still costs a rune, which was designed under the old, Wotlk rune system, and the old blood tap hanging around. It is still on the GCD, unlike most silences, and most of all, has a rather long cooldown for a silence, a whopping two minutes. Strangulate needs to be dropped down at least by one minute, and have its rune cost removed to be even considered remotely comparable to the other silences in the game. It would be nice to see this off the global as well.

Remorseless Winter - This is a neat ability, but there are some design flaws that were overlooked. The biggest problem with remorseless winter, is that it is a five second stun that takes five seconds to activate, and the activation is dispel-able, shift-able, freedom-able, avatar-able, and everything else that removes/grants immunity to snare effects (not to mention CC'ing the Dk long enough to be eight yards away from him for about a second) No one is asking for another shockwave, because shockwave itself is a bit out of control, however this is probably the worst stun in the game. The best thing to do with RW is to either make it break on damage, and instant cast (much like holy paladin blind) or make it an instant AoE stun, and jump it up to a 2.5 or 3 minute cooldown. I think keeping it at a 2 min cooldown is reasonable, but some people might argue otherwise.
If I'm way over my head with my ideas on how to change remorseless winter, then some other sort of CC needs to be given to this class. Being a glass cannon is not enough to get kills these days with all the instant CC running around in arena.
Edited by Shendelzare on 11/25/2012 4:04 PM PST
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100 Human Death Knight
12140
Soul Reaper - In its original incarnation, I was very excited to see this. It would change the way we pvp, and the way we pve. This turned out to be quite the let down. Mechanics aside, just the shear damage of this ability is underwhelming for an execute. Base crit chance, and hardly has competitive damage with obliterate in a vacuum. Sure it cost half the rune, so its still better, yet its clunky, !@#$s with out rotation and honestly makes me feel like I'm doing less damage, neglecting obliterates. As far as mechanics go, this ability was clearly designed for pve only. Being dispel-able, and taking five seconds to activate (hello remorseless winter?) it almost never actual goes off. When it does finally go off in pvp, it hits for a whopping 30-40k. Maybe. In general, I don't use this ability in pvp. It is just too much of a potential waste of a rune.

Necrotic Strike - I feel this ability has been gutted, like warriors were in season 10, because of its broken potency during early season 9 (ignoring resilience). It shouldn't cost a death rune, and additionally, its outdated. The combination of the absorb effect, and the damage is still more underwhelming that any other ability we use to not apply a disease. At the very least, this could be moved back to an unholy rune.

Icebound Fortitude - When this was changed to suck, we had the stupid class design of Dark Succor glyph, while I'm glad thats gone, something can be changed to make up for it. No major suggestions here, other than reverting it back to how it used to be, at a two minute cooldown, with 30% damage reduction. Nothing unreasonable I think.

Anti-Magic Shell - My idea for this is inspired by the Rogue Cloak of Shadows glyph, that was placed in during Cataclysm. In addition to the way AMS currently works, AMS would also absorb/reduce physical damage taken by 40%. While this may sound slightly too powerful, it would really make Dk's have to think about when to use this vs caster/dps comps, like RLS/WLS/WMP (you get the idea). Save it for the physical nuke, or the magic nuke? It would make shell not be used so offensively, and would give us a bit of durability against teams that sit on Dk's all day lone (Kitty Cleave).

Thanks to Grish
-NEW TALENT - Desecration: Passive: Your Necrotic Strike now causes the Desecrated ground effect which slows all targets within it by 50%. Desecrated ground lasts 20 secs.
Active: When activated your next Necrotic strike will be empowered and in addition to its other effects will cost no runes, cannot be parried blocked or dodged, has a 100% chance to crit and disarms your opponent for 6 secs. 2 min CD.
-Remorseless Winter now takes only lats for 6 seconds (down from 8) but also takes only 3 stacks (down from 5) to apply its stun effect. In addition if a stack is dispelled the dispeller receives the Frozen Tongue effect. Frozen Tongue slows casting speed by 50% for 6 seconds.

Closing Thoughts

I've played death knight though the good and the bad. It's my favorite class, and I'll stick with it until the end, no matter how bad they get. I'd love to enjoy playing Shen in arena again, and I'd love to see Dk's in a better place.

Death knights really just need some mobility, CC, and some quality of life changes. These aren't hard changes to make, and its unfortunate that the developers we're feeling creative the night they designed our new talent system. Simple tweaks can put us in a better spot, but I would like to see more fun and excitement out of the class. The damage buff we received in MoP was a great start, but if we never have an opportunity to do that damage, its all for naught.

I took a lot of time to think this though, and write this up. I'd like to hear your thoughts and suggestions. If you agree with what I've stated here, let me know! Like the post, spread the word. Maybe a blue will stumble across it, and even if he doesn't reply, he may pass on some of the good ideas to the developers.

Depressing tweet link from GC https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/270698313731420160
Edited by Shendelzare on 1/7/2013 6:08 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
7935
change the name from DK to DT because dk's are just damge !@#$%^s that get pooped on and have no real def's vs melee and only 5secs vs casters outdated mechanics really starve the dk atm cuz our resource system cant keep up with current game design. IMO make

make IBF 40-50%
baseline bonearmor all specs
and strang no rune cost and 1min cd and off gcd
and wtf if warrs can stance dance and keep all rage make the presence glyph baseline

tyvm good sir and good day
Edited by Paintraiñ on 11/25/2012 3:01 AM PST
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Aside from QoL Buffs, (strang off gcd, been saying that for a while, pet energy not to work in favor of pver's wanting their 1 claw and pet not holding energy) The only thing dk's need, is a way to peel for themselves(Formaly correctly kiting around chains of ice root/slow/slower, and desecration) there really hasn't been anything given back, with the removal of HC/Des. It was acceptable to be the lowest cc class in the game, because of that 1 ability. I agree it was annoying to fight against, for a 0 skill talent, but what you did with it would often keep you from dieing.
Dk's really don't need defensive, or healing, or damage, or whatever people are asking for simply because MLS/KFC. All they need is the ability to peel for themselves, much like other melee (earthbind, windwalk, hex, compact, shockwave charge disarm intervene, clone bash typhoon, passivly running faster then everything, cheapshot, kidny, gouge, blind) Blizzard removed the only acceptable reason to leave dk's in their current cc situation, without giving dk's any increased cc. 90% of the buffs I've seen sugguested, given unholys playstyle, would make it overpowered when the actualy overpowered classes, are nefted. Blizzard just takes far to long on patches to see exactly where it stands, If warriors/mages get nerfed enough, if dk's stand a chance then and just lack utility.
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100 Human Death Knight
13000
These changes would go a long way in improving our class. Strangulate does need a QoL change. DA baseline would be helpful. However DK's will still be forced to go into Blood Presence and would still have a lack of cc.

I know there is a lot off cc in the game atm and I'm not saying we need to match other classes but if we aren't going to have cc we need to be buffed in other areas to make up for it (btw my personal opinion isn't necessarlly that theres too much cc, just the cds being way to short. You should not just be spamming a silence or a stun every 20 sec like its part of your rotation. You should be saving them up for kills or using defensively, which DKs have to do atm cos they little control we have are on long cds. This is how it should be for every class.)

Still I'd like to see DK's be given a defensive cd that is actually worth pressing to save our butts, not just a % damage reduction but something interesting like Die by the Sword or Evasion. Basically something thats on a long cd that you press and your opponents can either switch or try to kill you through it, but doing so won't be easy.
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1 Human Warrior
0
Dks are completely fine with best sustained dmg in the game... lots of utility and ways to avoid cc like ibf, ams, lichborne.... oh and 2nd trinket... its mages and locks who are op... l2p the game... btw what a nice wall of text that I wont choose to read...

oh and Hem, yea cuz something that can hit twice as hard as a war w/o cds should have something like die by sword, at least wars dont have aoe slows and grips, and they cant kill you from acorss the arena....

with deaths advance you can kite nearlly every melee while hitting it from distance, and then oh sac, full hp, bye bye, oh lichborn, full hp bar again... I think dks went from being extremely faceroll to just faceroll this season and people are not liking it...

op mage is easier to deal with than op dk... i rather face mages, than dks, that take no dmg, hit you from distance, heal to full every time theyre low... and are unstoppable... NO TY s5/s9 please dont come back...
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90 Human Death Knight
9810
Dks are completely fine with best sustained dmg in the game... lots of utility and ways to avoid cc like ibf, ams, lichborne.... oh and 2nd trinket... its mages and locks who are op... l2p the game... btw what a nice wall of text that I wont choose to read...

oh and Hem, yea cuz something that can hit twice as hard as a war w/o cds should have something like die by sword, at least wars dont have aoe slows and grips, and they cant kill you from acorss the arena....

with deaths advance you can kite nearlly every melee while hitting it from distance, and then oh sac, full hp, bye bye, oh lichborn, full hp bar again... I think dks went from being extremely faceroll to just faceroll this season and people are not liking it...

op mage is easier to deal with than op dk... i rather face mages, than dks, that take no dmg, hit you from distance, heal to full every time theyre low... and are unstoppable... NO TY s5/s9 please dont come back...

Oh look a warrior main nobody is asking for S5 just stop
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90 Tauren Death Knight
9885
Dks are completely fine with best sustained dmg in the game... lots of utility and ways to avoid cc like ibf, ams, lichborne.... oh and 2nd trinket... its mages and locks who are op... l2p the game... btw what a nice wall of text that I wont choose to read...

oh and Hem, yea cuz something that can hit twice as hard as a war w/o cds should have something like die by sword, at least wars dont have aoe slows and grips, and they cant kill you from acorss the arena....

with deaths advance you can kite nearlly every melee while hitting it from distance, and then oh sac, full hp, bye bye, oh lichborn, full hp bar again... I think dks went from being extremely faceroll to just faceroll this season and people are not liking it...

op mage is easier to deal with than op dk... i rather face mages, than dks, that take no dmg, hit you from distance, heal to full every time theyre low... and are unstoppable... NO TY s5/s9 please dont come back...


somebody plays an undergeared warrior
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
12905
Dks are completely fine with best sustained dmg in the game... lots of utility and ways to avoid cc like ibf, ams, lichborne.... oh and 2nd trinket... its mages and locks who are op... l2p the game... btw what a nice wall of text that I wont choose to read...

oh and Hem, yea cuz something that can hit twice as hard as a war w/o cds should have something like die by sword, at least wars dont have aoe slows and grips, and they cant kill you from acorss the arena....

with deaths advance you can kite nearlly every melee while hitting it from distance, and then oh sac, full hp, bye bye, oh lichborn, full hp bar again... I think dks went from being extremely faceroll to just faceroll this season and people are not liking it...

op mage is easier to deal with than op dk... i rather face mages, than dks, that take no dmg, hit you from distance, heal to full every time theyre low... and are unstoppable... NO TY s5/s9 please dont come back...

faceroll op classes dont sit at the bottom of arena representation for multiple consecutive seasons. dks havent been blatantly op since s5.

what utility does a dk have that isnt completely negated by a blanket silence or sitting on the dk and globaling it in the opener again?

so where did the mean dk touch your undergeared toon?
Edited by Kusari on 11/25/2012 7:24 AM PST
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90 Troll Mage
15140
Am I the only one who thinks DKs are in a balanced state right now, just all the god classes make them feel weak?
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90 Orc Warrior
10485
new glyph

Glyph of Icebound Fortitude-(still usable while stunned) now provides 50% damage reduction but no longer provides temporary immunity to stun

if you want to give dk more utility, please tone down the damage a bit.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6415
ITT: Suggestions that make your class ridiculously overpowered in some way.

Oh wait...
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90 Undead Warrior
8000
11/25/2012 02:58 AMPosted by Paintraiñ
change the name from DK to DT because dk's are just damge !@#$%^s that get pooped on and have no real def's vs melee and only 5secs vs casters outdated mechanics really starve the dk atm cuz our resource system cant keep up with current game design. IMO make


Welcome to being the DPS Shaman specs
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90 Human Death Knight
9470
I've seen some people who still think Dks are OP even in current state and think they are fine... Let me explain on certain things.

Mages do 300k Frost Bomb? Nerf Dks.
Warriors do crazy amount of burst? Nerf Dks.
Hunters get to use AoTD in Arenas while we don't? Nerf Dks.
Warlocks use chaos waves and ignore AMS? Nerf Dks.
Monks get to have a massive mobility compare to us? Nerf Dks.
(Yes, i know. Monks aren't really good at pvp)
Rogues get to stunlock? Nerf Dks.
Paladins get to bubble and get our HC? Nerf Dks.
Druids get to shapeshift and have a blink + vanish? Nerf Dks.
Shamans get to have 30 yd auto attack? Nerf Dks.
(I feel sorry for the totem nerfs btw :( )
Priests get to AoE Fear Spam and use vanish? Nerf Dks.
(not saying OP but with GC logic, we still getting nerfed)

And above all classes, they have heals and survivability... Hell, even rogues seem to have better survivability than us.
Seriously, if you think Dks are fine. You are an idiot.
Edited by Uzuko on 11/25/2012 8:59 AM PST
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