A gladiator's view on the Dk current state

90 Human Warrior
10940

What Dk's need to become more interesting, viable, and most of all, fun

To put it short and simple, Death knights lack a few things. Mobility, crowd control, and survivability against physical damage.


One thing I noticed is rogues have completely the opposite of you and are terrible in pvp. I truly don't believe that Blizzard will read this post because it seems to me that Blizzard puts much more effort into PvE in this game than PvP.
Edited by Atraydeez on 11/25/2012 2:59 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
10940
Also what form of mobility do you need?

Why is blood presence not good enough against physical damage? How much armor does blood presence give?

I don't play a dk this season so I havent looked into it.
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90 Human Warrior
10940
I think that the biggest problem for dks is your rune system. You either need more runes to spend or lower the cooldown.
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90 Human Warrior
9810
warriors have been, and are getting nerfed again, quit crying.
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90 Night Elf Priest
8305
Dks are honestly fine right now, just everything else is op.Theres no reason you should have 100% uptime on a target & idk what bracket you play in but very seldom are dks even targeted.
Edited by Anapolis on 11/25/2012 3:19 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
12345
Reqy, thanks for posting. Its good to see someone else trying out the !@#$ tier classes, and doing well with them. Most of my post agrees with what you're saying, and when I say Dk's need CC, I'm not saying we need polymorph or something along those lines. Personally I'd like to see a CC that would excel in terms of peeling/defensive play, more than an offensive cc to get a kill.

Hemalador, I agree with a defensive ability like die by the sword. My personal thought would to have anti magic shell, in addition to 75% damage reduction from magic, 40% or some reduction from physical. I think this would work nicely, especially against physical/magic teams like RLS/WLS/WMP (you get the picture). This would change the way we use AMS, and would really make us think about when we want to blow that cooldown against a team that has high burst in both physical and magic. Thinking cloak of shadows glyph (if thats still in the game).

I do agree that we should not have death rune required spells. Dk already has four separately recharging resources (blood runes [unless you're frost] frost runes unholy runes, and runic power), while other classes generally only have one or two resources to manage. Micromanaging this resource system to get the most damage out of it without leaving runes on cooldown (wasting resources) is already complicated enough in pvp without the addition of the death rune resource. Death runes are supposed to make life easier for us. Unfortunately for unholy, they just make things much, much more complicated.

Xiun, I actually think that for the most part, Dk's are in a good spot. There is too much instant CC running around in this game right now, but unfortunately its a lot more unrealistic to hope that blizzard will remove instant CC and put CC reduction passives back in (stun/silence resist/duration shortened like the old Unbreakable Will talent that Disc had), than it is to put Dks on that same tier as the other classes. However, Dk does still feel very outdated, and would need changes regardless of the nerfing of warriors/mages/warlocks.

Prep, I agree with what you're saying, but unholy is it's own infected can of worms right now. I would have to do a completely seperate post to begin to address the problems with unholy. Maybe I'll do that in the future. Right now I'm just looking at the dps portion of the class overall in regards to pvp.

Icebound Fortitude doesn't need to be 50% reduction, but 20% is rather pathetic. Take a look at defensive stance. 25% damage reduction at the minor cost of some rage lost on auto attacks. On my warrior, I'm in D stance 99% of the time during 3's matches and hardly see the rage loss from it.

Personally I'm not a fan of the ret healing/self healing style, or the older death strike spam style. While effective, its just stupid and not fun. The current warrior set up is the most fun, where you have some minor healing when low health, and lots of kiting and damage reduction utilities to keep yourself alive. This play style rewards using your brain, while the death strike model just makes any old person mindlessly spam death strike while low.

Thanks for posting Venvicta. Always a pleasure to see other Glad Dks sticking it out with this class. Initially, I was really excited for soul reaper. It turned out to be a bit of a let down, even in Pve its damage is underwhelming. Doesn't hit as hard as obliterate, though it does cost half the rune. Ability needs a rework. The haste part is cool though. Should not be dispel-able. As far as Death's Advance goes, I think if this ability went baseline with chillblains in its current state, and with the addition of a CC/better strang/hungering/remoseless whatever, yeah it could be a bit much. I'm leaning more toward the Cataclysm version (or maybe a bit higher % of the passive currently). Maybe not slowed beyond 80%? 75%? No active.

Anurakis, one word. Offhealing.

Anapolis, we don't need 100% uptime. Some uptime would be appreciated, without having to have every freedom ever from the paladin. Oh yeah, it would be nice to not have to play with a paladin for once. This goes back to the mobility issue.

Turbo, this isn't a thread about warriors being too powerful. For the most part, I like where warriors are. Gag order should just be removed from pummel, and maybe jump heroic throw cooldown up to a 45 second or 1 min. I play a warrior too. The class is fun, interesting, up to date, viable, and has increasingly heavy returns for skilled players. This is about the changes Dks need to be
a) viable
b) fun and interesting
c) not outdated

One of my friends had a interesting idea. Reworking death's advance to make it a passive that fits in with Pillar of frost. Though, this doesn't help unholy, but that could be interesting. What do you think?
Edited by Shendelzare on 11/25/2012 4:01 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
12345
Updated the OP with some new ideas. The post above responds to many questions/comments throughout the thread, in order. Let me know what you think.
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90 Human Paladin
5640
11/25/2012 07:29 AMPosted by Xiun
Am I the only one who thinks DKs are in a balanced state right now, just all the god classes make them feel weak?


The thing is warriors/mages locks completely and utterly OBLITERATE DKs.

The problem is ferals/enhance/rets/spriests are all much BETTER than DKs. DKs lack the uptime, CC, and survivability of nearly every other dps class in the game. They have the damage, but everyone has damage this expac (except for rogues arguably). We shouldn't have the crazy CC of certain specs, but I'd at least like to live for more than 2 seconds outside of blood presence--the glass cannon melee concept is horrible; even mages are way tankier than any DK out there.

Dks are honestly fine right now, just everything else is op.Theres no reason you should have 100% uptime on a target & idk what bracket you play in but very seldom are dks even targeted.


No one is asking for this, what are you reading? DKs, as a melee class, have horrible survivability. When you take that and combine it with the fact that the class also has horrible mobility and CC it makes for a weak class. You don't need to buff all three of these aspects, but 1 or 2 desperately need improvements.
Edited by Harcken on 11/25/2012 4:29 PM PST
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90 Tauren Death Knight
9865
I would rather see death knights as a hard to kill melee that hits like a truck with lower cc and lower mobility. Maybe we could actually be a counter to casters again?

buffing amz, strangulate, and ibf would help, but at this point I think death knights need some major talent and cooldown reform. Our class is outdated and the nerfs throughout our existence have taken their toll the last few seasons.
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90 Draenei Shaman
10405
DKs probably don't need any more (new) cooldowns; they already have many to use/manage (defensively and offensively).

More so their current abilities need tweeking and adjusting. Some off hand suggestions are:
- Raise IBF to a higher amount of damage reduction 30-50%, maybe consider removing the stun immunity/break
- Lower blood presence to a lesser passive damage reduction amount (while "stance dancing" is a nice concept in general, classes like warriors no longer need to really choose between dances). Or maybe rework the benefits/penalties for each stance?
- The aoe freezing stun needs to change. Personally I thought the style of play that came with the casted stun/freeze was more interesting than the instant cast or the stack-building one.
- Remove rune requirement for Strangulate, leave it on GCD, maybe lower to 90 seconds. I hesitate with the lowering CD b/c the game has too many blanket silences.
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RLT Thread
90 Orc Death Knight
13795
This is a little off-topic but I feel like rune regen time is really slow in arena right now. I think it's because all the passive haste we used to have has been removed.

I realize that this wouldn't really help with our real problems but I'd love to see is our T5 talents changed to proc based off of runic power used, instead of specific abilities. It is not fun to have to wait 3-5 seconds doing nothing because I had to use rp on defensive abilities to stay alive, instead of Frost Strike to proc BT/RE/RC.

A side effect of this is that we could actually use Conversion without completely gimping our rune regen.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5625
11/25/2012 07:29 AMPosted by Xiun
Am I the only one who thinks DKs are in a balanced state right now, just all the god classes make them feel weak?


No, your are not the only one. i believe it is the "GOD classes" making otherwise decent classes look and feel horrible currently and DK are "generally" pretty good (i like mine very much), however i will relent in this thread from poking at the monkeys in the cage for a minute because the OP was basically thoughtful... not whiny... and GOT RATED even tho everybody says DK are crap in arena.

she shows with "skill" and "comp" and maybe even some "frustration" dks are viable.

now to the true issues of the class, even i gotta agree strangulate is just silly, it needs of gcd and the cost gone or the cd lowered (one or the other not both). And i also have an idea not mentioned yet, that will make EVERY comp beg for a dk but it might be just to amazing for arena: let them have raise ally active... set it on 9 min cd or find a way.

now i realize it wont help dk survival but it will make you so critical to the team they will probly do anything to keep you up.

as for the only other thing i would agree to change for dks, thats deaths advance being a baseline skill. this game has become "World of CCcraft" and anything that releases you from CC is now the bigest QoL change to any and all classes, so im not gonna leave out DKs just to be a troll.

Laslty, to the OP: you really almost lost me again on the whole discussion when you make your "fun to play" comparison with a fkn warrior.... c'mon you cant go around saying your class is broken because it doesnt feel as fun as the most Godlike class currently in game. really? That's just asking to get all legitimate thoughts ignored.

i mean OF COURSE your warrior is fun and not frustrating to play! every second you are still alive in a match its like ten tons of constant pressure bearing down on any focused enemy player who is drowning in a blizzard of ccs and damage. Your warrior makes almost every other class "not fun" rofl.
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48 Gnome Warlock
280
DK's need an overhaul, they made them horrible in MoP

I don't understand why they wrecked the rune mechanics, or at least didn't update it for the new mechanics of MoP.
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90 Human Warlock
11900
Corn I would like to see Dk balanced around a basic rune regenerator, and have the level 75 talent reworked into something more fun and interesting.

Lien, If warriors did damage akin to an unholy Dk (bad), the class would still be fun. What I'm getting at is the utility tool kit makes the class interesting and fun. Utility is fun to me, not necessarily damage output.
Additionally I think warlocks are more powerful than warriors are right now. On top of a huge utility tool kit, burst damage, and heavy survivability, warlocks of all specs got a very fun an interesting overhaul with Cataclysm. Lock has always been my main caster class, so that's what I'm leveling up next.
Edited by Shendelock on 11/25/2012 5:35 PM PST
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6 Blood Elf Priest
0
Dks are completely fine with best sustained dmg in the game... lots of utility and ways to avoid cc like ibf, ams, lichborne.... oh and 2nd trinket... its mages and locks who are op... l2p the game... btw what a nice wall of text that I wont choose to read...

oh and Hem, yea cuz something that can hit twice as hard as a war w/o cds should have something like die by sword, at least wars dont have aoe slows and grips, and they cant kill you from acorss the arena....

with deaths advance you can kite nearlly every melee while hitting it from distance, and then oh sac, full hp, bye bye, oh lichborn, full hp bar again... I think dks went from being extremely faceroll to just faceroll this season and people are not liking it...

op mage is easier to deal with than op dk... i rather face mages, than dks, that take no dmg, hit you from distance, heal to full every time theyre low... and are unstoppable... NO TY s5/s9 please dont come back...


You must be fighting Blood DK's or something because if you're fighting any other spec you'll notice that they're squishier than Mages ( cloth class ).

If ghoul sac fully heals a DK then that DK is blood and just popped Vamp Blood, otherwise the heal is -50%. If IBF or Remorseless Winter was ever an issue for you it's because you don't know how to walk away.

If you think Mages are easier to kill than DK's then you must play a Mage and trying to advocate a lie.

2nd trinket, 25% of DK's spec into DGround.

Lichborne is such an inefficient way to heal that you may get 2-3 coils our of it because you're rune starved again.

All a DK brings to the table is sustained dmg to pressure healers. The class is VERY much CC-able and too easy to shut down. Every match focus the DK down first and GG. No real defenses.
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90 Human Death Knight
6085
Dk's atm are great i wouldn't change a thing we have some of the best mobility in game excellent cc abilitys and we never randomly die and we have great support for our healers LOL JOKES DK's SUCK BALLS atm replace us with any other class and ur 3's are stronger
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90 Human Death Knight
12550
Im not sure you can say "DKs only feel bad because there are a few classes which are doing very well. DK's are okay", mostly because most of the other classes are much better than us making us not okay by definition. Making DK's one of the worst classes. Currently there is data showing DK's are underrepresented in higher PvP brackets, especially considering how many people play the class:

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stats-classesrepartition-0-0-0---0-0-1.html
(I wonder how many of the 2200 rating DK's got it in RBG's?)

My own experience is that it is very frustrating playing a DK. I feel that all I'm doing is obliterating. I'm trying to intelligently use what little cooldowns I have (Strang 2min cd, AMS 45s, IBF 2min, RW 2min cd, DA when it's appropriate), but Necrotics are hardly worth using, CoI is barely worth using (taking into account it reduces Oblits, really only useful for a peel) Frost strike has become very expensive (because I'm in blood presence for the majority), so all I'm doing is hitting 1 button, then a second when I want to do something that looks like Burst. Then all I'm left with is self Heals (both silenceable, Lichborne self heal being very expensive, btw often DK's use pillar of frost to buff self healing, says something about how badly we need survival buffs).

I'm certainly not a highly ranked player, but we have many people (like Shendelzare, who is clearly better than just scrapping a 2200 rating) who are very good, multi Glads like AnotherX who the other day at the championship switching to a Mage cos he died first in the 2 games he did as a DK, that are saying DK's are not in a good place.

The evidence is showing DK's are underpowered in PvP.

If Blizzard want to make us more viable, DK's will need buffs. And if they want to make us more viable there are plenty of good ideas (some not so good) floating around on the thousand threads on the topic that have popped up since mop hit.
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90 Human Death Knight
9470
I've seen some people who still think Dks are OP even in current state and think they are fine... Let me explain on certain things.

Mages do 300k Frost Bomb? Nerf Dks.
Warriors do crazy amount of burst? Nerf Dks.
Hunters get to use AoTD in Arenas while we don't? Nerf Dks.
Warlocks use chaos waves and ignore AMS? Nerf Dks.
Monks get to have a massive mobility compare to us? Nerf Dks.
(Yes, i know. Monks aren't really good at pvp)
Rogues get to stunlock? Nerf Dks.
Paladins get to bubble and get our HC? Nerf Dks.
Druids get to shapeshift and have a blink + vanish? Nerf Dks.
Shamans get to have 30 yd auto attack? Nerf Dks.
(I feel sorry for the totem nerfs btw :( )
Priests get to AoE Fear Spam and use vanish? Nerf Dks.
(not saying OP but with GC logic, we still getting nerfed)

And above all classes, they have heals and survivability... Hell, even rogues seem to have better survivability than us.
Seriously, if you think Dks are fine. You are an idiot.


This post gave me cancer.


yw :P
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