A gladiator's view on the Dk current state

90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10135
I want to start off by saying what makes a class good in arena is damage (burst) and utility (off-heals,CC/peels/ways to save their team mate) If they have good balance of both they are strong. So im here to talk about the things DKs lack and that is utility.

Our damage is fine. We need utility .

Can we have hungering cold back. I don't even care if i have to cast it. To be honest, Instant hungering cold (on a 1.5 min cd on par with warrior fear and blind) doesn't even sound that OP with how much instant CC there is in the game now.

Only CC i have is a 2 min strangulate or a 1 min stun which I choose to run with and a 25 sec grip that i can choose to use to interrupt cast or peel or stay on my target. I do want to mention we do have 30 sec dark simulacrum (if glyphed) which can be good offensive (CC healer) or defensive (peel) but again its NOT reliable. The downside is if i use this grip to interrupt, my target will most likely be one step ahead of me so its not a reliable CC so in effect i lose my up-time on my target.

I feel DKs just really need one more extra CC.

Example a warrior wants to peel for his teammates, he can charge and shockwave, lets say the opposing team trinkets this shockwave because they are using their burst CDs (which is understandable to trinket) the warrior can follow it up with either a disarm if its a melee class or even demo shout or a warrior fear if its a caster class, + a safeguard on their teammates so in turn the warrior may have saved his teammates from blowing a CD to live through the enemies burst.

Another example, a Mage wants to peel for his teammates, He can POM / alter time ring of frost and POM sheep healer or blanket CS the healer, the opposing team trinkets because their healer can't dispel. The mage can follow up with deepfreeze or nova if its a melee.

I can go on and on with other classes, but we're here to talk about DKs.

So lets say i'm trying to peel as a DK. I can either use grip or (strangulate / stun). So if i stun a person when they trinket my stun my next option is to grip but grip isn't a very good peel. So lets say i grip a warrior, he charges back, i grip again, he heroic leaps back. My grip is wasted. I can see our grip peel being better if the map had a Z axis, but other than that grip isn't that good of a peel. We can also use grip to interrupt a cast which is alright. My stun is an ok peel but its such a long CD ( 1min) if i use it to peel i have no CC for the healer. We just need a extra CC to follow up.
We stun someone then trinket, then we Hungering cold. Peeled. Keep in mind the healer can only dispel one of them ( 8 sec dispel)

Arenas is ALL about CD usage. What i mean by this is, Team one uses a 1 min CD and forces team 2 to use a >1 minute CD . Team one is ahead.
The reason i bring this up is i just want an extra CC to prevent my team from using extra CD when they wouldn't if my class actually had some sort of good reliably peel meaning we can use it defensively (CC DPS , to stop damage on us or teammates) this in-turn buffs our survivability/peels. We can also use it offensively (CC dps, kill healer or CC healer kill dps) Instant hungering cold will work really nicely with our 4 set bonus being able to use grip twice.

There is another peel i forgot to mention and that is anti magic zone which we can replace lichborne for which i REALLY dislike not having lichborne. Anit magic zone is 2 mins (kindof long) and absorbs about 136k damage. So i can stop one frostbomb / icelance combo every 2 mins.

We can argue that unholy has a little more CC, with pet gnaw and the pet interrupt but again, i'm not sure how reliability the pet is , what i mean is it can be easily CCed when u need it to peel. (there is no CD that DKs have to break their pet out of roots or CCs)
Edited by Pinkums on 12/9/2012 5:41 AM PST
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81 Worgen Druid
630
Our damage is fine Can we have hungering cold back please. I don't even care if i have to cast it. To be honest, Instant hungering cold (on a 1.5 min cd on par with warrior fear and blind) doesnt even sound that OP with how much instant CC there is in the game now. I want some sort of CC.

Only CC i have is a 2 min strangulate or a 1 min stun witch i choose to run with and a 25 sec grip that i can choose to use to interrupt heals. The downside is if i use this grip to interrupt, my target will most likely be one step ahead of me so its not a reliable CC

give pally blinding light and remove hungering cold good lodgic.
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100 Human Death Knight
12195
The pet isnt reliable because it cant move with all the roots in this patch, and it gets AoE'd down too easily. Unholy is a mess all together. Its a good post and a fine read, Pink, but did you read the OP? The parts about CC.
Edited by Shendelzare on 12/9/2012 4:38 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10135
Yes i did. I agree with alot of the things u say but i just feel its not going to happen. :/
I just wanted to write my own rant lol.

Correct me if I'm wrong but i feel blizzard's way of solving problems would most likely be how can we "balance" this class by changing it as little as possible, so by giving us this ONE extra CC (hungering Cold) , we can Solve some of the issues mentioned previous. survivability and CC
Edited by Pinkums on 12/9/2012 4:57 AM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
6155
Yes i did. I agree with alot of the things u say but i just feel its not going to happen. :/
I just wanted to write my own rant lol.

Correct me if I'm wrong but i feel blizzard's way of solving problems would most likely be how can we "balance" this class by changing it as little as possible, so by giving us this ONE extra CC (hungering Cold) , we can Solve some of the issues mentioned previous. survivability and CC


I'd be happy with Hungering Cold back and our strangulate being up to bar with other silences, CC wise. The 2 minute, rune using, on GCD piece of crap we have now is barely worth the time. Hard casts are so fast and far between I doubt the usefulness of the extra 2-second glyph, and if I'm on GCD then just forget it. Next, IBF -> 0 cost, 35-40% dmg redux, 2 min CD. AMS duration + 2 seconds.

Do all that and we'll at least be usable in arena teams once again.

Sadly, that will only makes us "viable". To make us competitive, you'd have to rework the rune system as a whole, which has gone largely unchanged for way too long. Why, OH WHY, did you have to make blood tap a talent, when it was baseline FOR ALL SPECS before? Why, OH WHY, did you have to make every form of rune generation a talent, when those were either baseline or talents that no one in their right mind would skip. Why, oh why, did we not get any new abilities like other classes did as talents? You simply stole our decent abilities, didn't give half of them back, and put the rest in as talents. Where's my frostbomb? My shockwave? My avatar? My holy prism? My SOMETHING NEW AND GOOD ability? What did I get in MoP? Asphyxiate? And I have to drop chillbanes to get it? That makes it garbage. And it's STILL on a longer CD than comparable talents.

Blizzard, we get it. You hate us because you failed the balance the class during Lich King, but doing the polar opposite still isn't balance. It's stupidity. Stop taking away/nerfing abilities every patch and throw us a bone here. Pretty soon we'll have nothing left but icy touch.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10095
I agree wholeheartedly with Pinkums. We need something on a 30-45 cd that peels reliably.
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85 Dwarf Death Knight
6205
Dks are completely fine with best sustained dmg in the game... lots of utility and ways to avoid cc like ibf, ams, lichborne.... oh and 2nd trinket... its mages and locks who are op... l2p the game... btw what a nice wall of text that I wont choose to read...


"Listen to my opinion while I ignore yours."
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90 Human Death Knight
3610
11/25/2012 04:53 AMPosted by Cellaylar
l2p the game.
You idiot....hes a gladiator.
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90 Human Warrior
5445
Yeah while unfortunately the DK toolkit isn't all that stellar compared to MoP classes, knowing Blizzard they won't tackle this during an expac. Gotta hope next expac DKs get the warlock treatment and are brought up to the MoP+ century.

In the short term, I think survivability is the main issue. A melee plate class with poor mobility should never be the easiest target... that's wrong on so many levels. "TRAIN THE DK", the counter to every DK team. When you see spriest/mage or mage/warrior, it's more like "hmmm, who do we go on? Maybe mage if we can to force the ice block; or bait the warrior into a bad spot to burst him down?" That's what makes arena fun, the slight unpredictability and the pre-game strat discussions and the midgame adjustments. Playing a DK team is like playing against the worst defensive team in the league with two practice squad cornerbacks. PASS PASS PASS, no adjustments, TRAIN THE DK, win game.
Edited by Tyronus on 12/9/2012 1:49 PM PST
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100 Human Death Knight
12195
I'd be happy with old hungering cold back
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10135
Blood presence + gemming resilience helps alot vs melee cleave and with the + health from blood presence i don't get globaled in a Deep Freeze (as much) I don't have a problem living vs melee cleave. The problem is not being able to land a kill because my class lacks CC.
I look at it like this, with the extra CC DKs will be able to put out more pressure in-turn making the other team play Defensive which means they do less damage aka counter pressure their pressure.
I feel a lot of games i win is because i steal something useful with dark sim which forces a trinket on the healer then i stun/ , strangulate or healer just goes oom, or i get some crazy RNG killing machine oblits.

Also want to mention the 1 min trinket is such a buff for mages. Pre trinket nerf, a mage popping on use 2 min trinket casting a frostbomb Deep freeze when someone has no out ( no trinket) is OVERKILL so now instead of beginning worried every 2 mins about a mage popping on use, im worried every one minute!!! (assuming they are not human)
Edited by Pinkums on 12/10/2012 4:12 AM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
9185
Yeah while unfortunately the DK toolkit isn't all that stellar compared to MoP classes, knowing Blizzard they won't tackle this during an expac. Gotta hope next expac DKs get the warlock treatment and are brought up to the MoP+ century.

In the short term, I think survivability is the main issue. A melee plate class with poor mobility should never be the easiest target... that's wrong on so many levels. "TRAIN THE DK", the counter to every DK team. When you see spriest/mage or mage/warrior, it's more like "hmmm, who do we go on? Maybe mage if we can to force the ice block; or bait the warrior into a bad spot to burst him down?" That's what makes arena fun, the slight unpredictability and the pre-game strat discussions and the midgame adjustments. Playing a DK team is like playing against the worst defensive team in the league with two practice squad cornerbacks. PASS PASS PASS, no adjustments, TRAIN THE DK, win game.

If they going to adjust DK's next expac, many will just quit the game. It's not an option they have. Arena balance is already crap and having second season where DK's struggle is just money loss.
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100 Human Death Knight
12195
I'd be happy with old hungering cold again.
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90 Human Death Knight
10625
I think they need to introduce disarm reduction for dk's. Previous seasons there has been spare points to buy multiple weapons to get sword / spell shattering chants for weapon swaps.

But this season with upgrading conquest gear we're not going to be able to afford to buy 3 weapons.
Edited by Trip on 12/9/2012 7:07 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
4575
I sit in around half conquest gear/half honor gear, the latter mostly upgraded. I got tired of being run over in arenas, so I gemmed resilience, and spend a decent amount of time in blood presence. With around 50% melee damage reduction from Blood Presence, the 10% total damage reduction, also from Blood Presence, and my appx. 66% pvp damage reduction from stacking resilience, I actually got pretty excited as it made me rather sturdy. Only problem with this is, Warriors do similar damage, aaand they can gem pvp power due to their general sturdiness (against melee, especially), and they have loads more CC, and similar if not slightly better mobility. I still love my DK, I'll continue to play him, but I can't think of many reasons to play a DK over a warrior, unless you want to howling blast everything in a BG and top the damage meters because of your frost fever being up on half their team at any given time...which is less than thrilling after you realize it doesn't mean you're better than everyone else.

All that being said, I've found DK's are viable as long as they have a Holy Paladin following them around. I'd just prefer to not be forced into playing with one class all the time.

Finally, in terms of changes for melee PvP, I think we need to be realistic and accept that monks/rogues are going to be getting the most attention from Devs in the immediate future, as they need it more than we do. I'm still hoping someday that 3's teams won't start drooling when they see a DK, and I'd prefer to not have to offensively gimp myself to survive long enough to do some of the OP damage everyone talks about. I would be okay with NO changes to mobility if we could get just a liiiiiiittle survivability love. We do enough damage when we're on people half the time for me to be okay with it.

And yes...this saddens me, too.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/270698313731420160
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90 Undead Death Knight
9495
I would definitely emphasize on the following:

1. Survival when silenced. We cannot pop any defensive CDs when silenced so it is quite often we get killed from 80%+ to 0% in the duration of a silence when we have all defensive CDs available.

2. Root removal. We are so far the most vulnerable melee to roots. It completely stops our damage/mobility as well as our pet.

3. Controls. We have the weakest controls toolkit in this game - this is not even debatable, it is right there, no argument.
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85 Troll Warrior
12305
If you want more mobility, you'd have to give up your abilities that immobilize people. If you can't find a use for Remorseless winter, then don't use it. Strangulate at a 1min cd broke healer survivability last time that was allowed. You want to double the effectiveness of AMS? You're anti-cast, and now you want to be anti-melee on top of that? I could go on and on. Get a time machine and play WotLK or keep dreaming.
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100 Human Death Knight
13000
It's a myth that DK's are the anti caster class.

DK's can't touch casters outside of DG every 25 seconds. 2 min cd strang? Casters laugh at us cos they know we have no other cc they need to trinket. AMS 5 second Immunity? We'll just die 5 seconds later. What about necrotic strike? Costing a Death Rune is a huge nerf, can't get in melee range, and not worth it considering the damage Obliterate does.

Edit: Maybe back in the day DK's were anti caster, definetly not now though
Edited by Hemalador on 12/10/2012 2:25 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
5755
12/10/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Ultor
If you want more mobility, you'd have to give up your abilities that immobilize people. If you can't find a use for Remorseless winter, then don't use it. Strangulate at a 1min cd broke healer survivability last time that was allowed. You want to double the effectiveness of AMS? You're anti-cast, and now you want to be anti-melee on top of that? I could go on and on. Get a time machine and play WotLK or keep dreaming.

Wait. Waiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. How exactly does AMS and strangulate being buffed make us anti-melee? We just want to be able to survive long enough so we can play the game.
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91 Tauren Death Knight
6340
It's a myth that DK's are the anti caster class.

DK's can't touch casters outside of DG every 25 seconds. 2 min cd strang? Casters laugh at us cos they know we have no other cc they need to trinket. AMS 5 second Immunity? We'll just die 5 seconds later. What about necrotic strike? Costing a Death Rune is a huge nerf, can't get in melee range, and not worth it considering the damage Obliterate does.

Edit: Maybe back in the day DK's were anti caster, definetly not now though

And you have a beautiful xmog.
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