Why we need to see LFR boss status

90 Tauren Druid
10560
One problem is that if you need gear for one spec and not another for a particular boss, you'll now have no way of knowing whether the group is on the boss you need for that spec. That means you just have to choose a spec and deal with deserter if it's the wrong boss.
Edited by Pennoyer on 11/29/2012 2:13 PM PST
90 Tauren Druid
7715
11/29/2012 02:10 PMPosted by Ngatayou
Now you are looking at a 30 minute deserter debuff and then a 25 minute queue


Okay...here's a scenario:

DPS queues for LFR. 25 minutes later - 2/6 run. Leaves queue

DPS queues for second LFR. 20 minutes later - 2/6 run. Leaves queue

DPS queues for third LFR. 25 minutes later - 0/6 run. Joins queue

TOTAL WAIT TIME: 65 minutes

Scenario 2:

DPS queues for LFR. 25 minutes later - 2/6 run. Joins queue, takes 10 minutes to kill boss

DPS queues for LFR. 20 minutes later - 0/6 fresh run. Joins queue, only needs to take 20 minutes because he doesn't need the final boss.

TOTAL WAIT TIME: 45 minutes

Edit: Scenario 3:

DPS queues for LFR. 25 minutes later - 2/6 run. Joins queue, leaves. Deserter 30 minutes

DPS queues for second LFR. 20 minutes later, if lucky, gets fresh run 0/6. Joins queue, kills all three bosses, takes 30 minutes.

TOTAL WAIT TIME: 75 minutes

Am I missing something?
Edited by Moofaza on 11/29/2012 2:14 PM PST
90 Gnome Priest
10490
True...except they're not inconveniencing one for the happiness of another. Got stuck with a 2/3? Kill the boss and requeue. Odds are you'll end up with a fresh run.

The point was that the player I responded to had a snotty attitude toward other customers. If one needs to sacrifice a kiss-butt attitude as a CSR to make sure that it's understood this is a snotty attitude, so be it.


Point taken.
90 Tauren Shaman
0
Completely and entirely true. I 100% agree with this.

It's the most assinine change since patch 3.0.


It's actually not assinine at all. Have you tested it? The new system guarantees you a fresh run if you've completed a partial run beforehand. In other words, if you doing a 2/6 raid on Garalon and then help that raid down Garalon, the next time you queue you are guaranteed a fresh run. I was able to finish LFR in a way more efficient manner on my rogue as a result of this.
90 Tauren Druid
14325
Right, so with 5.1 the game no longer tells you how many bosses are left for the group you’re being matched with for Raid Finder (LFR).

To explain why we made the change, let’s go back to the problem everyone was experiencing before. Let’s say a fresh LFR group is put together, they get two bosses down, and then wipe a few times on the third and lose 10 people who think they’re too cool for wiping. Now the group is down to 15, waiting for 10 new people, the queue eventually pops for those 10, and most of them see 2/6 and hit cancel. The raid still isn't full, the matchmaker has to go looking again for more people, and meanwhile as time ticks on people from the original run are getting more frustrated. Maybe a few of them leave, and then there’s even more spots to fill. Plenty of times everyone just gives up and the entire run falls apart, all those people are back in the queue, and they’ll be-damned if they join an in-progress run to fall apart again!

These kinds of things happen all of the time, and in the vast majority of situations it’s simply because people don’t like the idea of joining an in-progress run, even if it would have succeeded.

You may think we’re trying to be underhanded, but the reality is we’re trying to help people be more efficient with their play time. What most people don’t realize is that if they get and complete an in-progress run, the next time they queue they will preferentially be placed into a fresh instance. What everyone should be doing, to be the most efficient, is joining and sticking with their runs to completion. If they join an in-progress group they can catch up on those other couple bosses they missed immediately after, and if they have the time, they’d be wise to down the ones they've already killed again for extra Valor.

The patch has only been out a couple days of course, but personally I think there are some people who don’t realize yet how an in-progress run, and that extra Valor, can directly translate to improved items through the new upgrade system. An in-progress run is very likely better bang for the buck to your character power due to item level upgrades than hitting cancel over and over to get a fresh run and then hoping for a boss drop.

There are of course other issues that cause LFR groups to fall apart, like boss difficulty, and those are the kinds of things we’re looking at bigger solutions for. Losing a couple people doesn’t need to mean the whole run is doomed.


As long as their is a valor cap to it wont translate into upgraded gear imo. And I have yet to be placed into a fresh instance after completing a partial one. SO more lies and flawed system from you guys
100 Human Warlock
14925
11/29/2012 02:09 PMPosted by Mate
Read what I said, I said "chance" which is the same as most likely. It could be a really low chance but I have gotten Will of the Emperor twice thanks.

5.0 or 5.1?

Either way it surprises me, The odds are really low as dps. After a year of lfr across 11 characters I have never not got a fresh queue after killling the last boss in the instance.


I have pre 5.1, but I was queued up with other people for one of the queues, so I don't know if that changes things. I did the Will of the emperor queuing solo, then queued up with a couple of friends and we didn't get a fresh queue.
100 Human Mage
15120
I think most people are skipping over this little note.

11/29/2012 12:52 PMPosted by Bashiok
What most people don’t realize is that if they get and complete an in-progress run, the next time they queue they will preferentially be placed into a fresh instance


I for one don't mind finishing one If it can be done, i've joined 2/3s before and they aren't all failed i'd say its about 50/50
90 Undead Rogue
9325
I thought that if you kill the LAST boss of a LFR dungeon, then you get a FRESH run the next time guaranteed.

Is this no longer the case now? If so then Blizz really mucked up.


It's not guaranteed, just highly likely.


Al right, thank you. Can't say I like this change then. Was on the fence before.
90 Blood Elf Priest
14420
11/29/2012 01:21 PMPosted by Bashiok
Feedback on what you think we can do to make things smoother for you is always helpful.


- Give a once per week option for a fresh run only in each raid.
- If you choose that option the loot is held until the last boss dies.
- If you leave early you need to kill the bosses again, for loot, even if it takes multiple queues.

- Full Valor above the weekly cap and a free second chance at loot for the boss(es) you downed on the second queue, if you take a partial queue and complete that raid.

- Encourage people to play better rather then expecting others to carry them.
Edited by Blackgoddess on 11/29/2012 2:16 PM PST
100 Night Elf Hunter
14545
I'm slightly confused on one thing..

DPS complaining about 25 minute queues..Previously, if you queued and got a 2/6 run and chose to "leave queue", did you not have to wait another 25 minutes for the queue to pop anyways?


You did have to wait for the queue to repop, some of the time. A lot of the time someone else would decline and it would reset, and you wouldn't even lose your place in line. The difference is now you are looking at a deserter debuff as the only option other than staying in a partial instance you have already done, for 45 measly valor. Not by any means worth staying.
90 Human Hunter
11285
Right, so with 5.1 the game no longer tells you how many bosses are left for the group you’re being matched with for Raid Finder (LFR).

To explain why we made the change, let’s go back to the problem everyone was experiencing before. Let’s say a fresh LFR group is put together, they get two bosses down, and then wipe a few times on the third and lose 10 people who think they’re too cool for wiping. Now the group is down to 15, waiting for 10 new people, the queue eventually pops for those 10, and most of them see 2/6 and hit cancel. The raid still isn't full, the matchmaker has to go looking again for more people, and meanwhile as time ticks on people from the original run are getting more frustrated. Maybe a few of them leave, and then there’s even more spots to fill. Plenty of times everyone just gives up and the entire run falls apart, all those people are back in the queue, and they’ll be-damned if they join an in-progress run to fall apart again!

These kinds of things happen all of the time, and in the vast majority of situations it’s simply because people don’t like the idea of joining an in-progress run, even if it would have succeeded.

You may think we’re trying to be underhanded, but the reality is we’re trying to help people be more efficient with their play time. What most people don’t realize is that if they get and complete an in-progress run, the next time they queue they will preferentially be placed into a fresh instance. What everyone should be doing, to be the most efficient, is joining and sticking with their runs to completion. If they join an in-progress group they can catch up on those other couple bosses they missed immediately after, and if they have the time, they’d be wise to down the ones they've already killed again for extra Valor.

The patch has only been out a couple days of course, but personally I think there are some people who don’t realize yet how an in-progress run, and that extra Valor, can directly translate to improved items through the new upgrade system. An in-progress run is very likely better bang for the buck to your character power due to item level upgrades than hitting cancel over and over to get a fresh run and then hoping for a boss drop.

There are of course other issues that cause LFR groups to fall apart, like boss difficulty, and those are the kinds of things we’re looking at bigger solutions for. Losing a couple people doesn’t need to mean the whole run is doomed.

I actually love this change.

Towards the end of Cata especially, I would continually get into groups that would fall apart after two or three bosses. The reason? People had already done the last two, or didn't like the group, or whatever, and just leave. Then, no one would want to join because they'd see that the group was already partway through. Then, impatient people would leave, or someone would get bored and pull a boss and cause more people to leave. But the trouble is, all those people who left would get put right back into the queue for the same group!

I called it "black hole groups," because eventually EVERYONE who queue'd would get put in for that group, but no one would accept. The only solution would have been to have EVERYBODY leave and start up a fresh queue, because if even one person stuck it out the queue would continue to match people with them. Of course, you could always try and pick out the most patient person in the group and put them on ignore before you left to requeue, but it would take forever because, again, everyone was getting shoved into the in-progress queue. Just not fun, man. :(
100 Tauren Warrior
8080
11/29/2012 02:06 PMPosted by Smakke
I've wondered about that 50% off too. I know the business world isn't thrilled with the MOP numbers.


Which is why Forbes listed Mike Morhaime as Tech Entrepreneur of the year, right?

Or Walstreet Journal gave MOP a glowing review?

Right?

Right??

TL;DR: pretending that Blizzard is 'suffering financually' just because your babby ego is brused by them making a huge system improvement fixes nothing for you.


No one's ego is bruised, I've read the financial industries opinion of MOP and they are not impressed. Awards don't put money in the bank . And for the record I rarely raid so this doesn't affect me one way or the other. BTW, learn to spell.
90 Tauren Shaman
0
11/29/2012 02:13 PMPosted by Moofaza
Now you are looking at a 30 minute deserter debuff and then a 25 minute queue


Okay...here's a scenario:

DPS queues for LFR. 25 minutes later - 2/6 run. Leaves queue

DPS queues for second LFR. 20 minutes later - 2/6 run. Leaves queue

DPS queues for third LFR. 25 minutes later - 0/6 run. Joins queue

TOTAL WAIT TIME: 65 minutes

Scenario 2:

DPS queues for LFR. 25 minutes later - 2/6 run. Joins queue, takes 10 minutes to kill boss

DPS queues for LFR. 20 minutes later - 0/6 fresh run. Joins queue, only needs to take 20 minutes because he doesn't need the final boss.

TOTAL WAIT TIME: 45 minutes

Edit: Scenario 3:

DPS queues for LFR. 25 minutes later - 2/6 run. Joins queue, leaves. Deserter 30 minutes

DPS queues for second LFR. 20 minutes later, if lucky, gets fresh run 0/6. Joins queue, kills all three bosses, takes 30 minutes.

TOTAL WAIT TIME: 75 minutes

Am I missing something?


And don't forget that in your first scenario, the raid might completely evaporated after the first two bosses are dead and never get filled again, meaning that you'll need to requeue again.

But all joking aside, I would encourage anyone who's upset by this to actually test it out. I saved time on my rogue's LFR by quite a bit. Last week I keep getting partial queues. At least this week I was able to guarantee myself a fresh run.
100 Human Priest
17435
As much as I hate to admit it, I think this was a necessary change. But I think that the way you're handling people who missed early bosses on their first run isn't ideal. You've said that it 'isn't a guarantee' that they'll get a fresh run the second time, which has the potential to be frustrating and even unfair to players who are just trying to get a chance to loot one particular boss. But it's also, I think, a problem that there's no in-game indication that your system will try to put players into a fresh run if they've already completed a wing. The players who read the forums will know this, but we know that isn't everyone. I also think the 45 valor is a pretty meager reward to entice someone to stick around and take their chances on, say, Garalon.

So I'd propose two changes: first, make a fresh run an option you earn by completing a wing for the week. This might decrease the frustration factor of getting an in-progress group; even though having a box to check is no different from just getting placed in a fresh run without having to do anything, it gives a feeling of control and makes your intent of ensuring that players don't wind up killing the last boss six times before they ever see the first two more transparent. Second, buff the valor for finishing the wing when you've already killed the last boss, or offer some other enticement.

And maybe this is something you specifically don't want, but personally, even with the current rewards, I would happily take a truely random LFR queue, that might be an in-progress raid and might be a fresh one, if I needed some valor and had already done a heroic and a scenario for the daily bonus. I'm less inclined to attempt that currently because I know I'll get a fresh run, and that's somewhat less appealing for me. Being able to turn off the 'always get a fresh run because you've already looted the last boss' option might result in more people in the queue to fill in spots in in-progress raids and get them completed faster.
Edited by Cylthia on 11/29/2012 2:25 PM PST
90 Gnome Warlock
12215
Maybe I'm alone in this, but I actually look forward to already-completed runs. If I get a run where they're literally standing at the last boss (or they just wiped and are running back), I jump for joy. One boss, full valor, two drops+ I have a shot at (LFG, more in raid)

I am much more concerned about getting valor and end-instance loot than I am beginning-instance loot. Maybe this will change later, but how will it be different in the long term?

Old way: I queue and get a fresh instance, don't complete it for whatever reason, struggle to get a half-completed instance or find time to finish a whole run. I am short on valor because I never finish a raid, but i have a lot of beginning-instance loot.

New way: I queue and get a near-finished instance, complete it, but struggle to get into a new instance. I am high on valor but short on beginning-instance loot.

I prefer the new way. Hint: Alternative loot is easier to come by for beginning bosses than end bosses.
100 Night Elf Hunter
11350
11/29/2012 02:06 PMPosted by Dezu
Just because you hate his answer does not mean it is not important for Blizzard to understand this already goes on and may increase which will make completion of LFR's more difficult for their customers.


Whine posts don't offer anything constructive/useful. I don't care how you dress it up or paint it, you're wrong.


Saying I am wrong does not change the fact that this behavior does go on now in LFR's.

Until Blizzard finds a way to either get people to want to help the raid or to punish people who do not help this will continue to happen.
100 Human Hunter
13475
Right, so with 5.1 the game no longer tells you how many bosses are left for the group you’re being matched with for Raid Finder (LFR).

To explain why we made the change, let’s go back to the problem everyone was experiencing before. Let’s say a fresh LFR group is put together, they get two bosses down, and then wipe a few times on the third and lose 10 people who think they’re too cool for wiping. Now the group is down to 15, waiting for 10 new people, the queue eventually pops for those 10, and most of them see 2/6 and hit cancel. The raid still isn't full, the matchmaker has to go looking again for more people, and meanwhile as time ticks on people from the original run are getting more frustrated. Maybe a few of them leave, and then there’s even more spots to fill. Plenty of times everyone just gives up and the entire run falls apart, all those people are back in the queue, and they’ll be-damned if they join an in-progress run to fall apart again!

These kinds of things happen all of the time, and in the vast majority of situations it’s simply because people don’t like the idea of joining an in-progress run, even if it would have succeeded.

You may think we’re trying to be underhanded, but the reality is we’re trying to help people be more efficient with their play time. What most people don’t realize is that if they get and complete an in-progress run, the next time they queue they will preferentially be placed into a fresh instance. What everyone should be doing, to be the most efficient, is joining and sticking with their runs to completion. If they join an in-progress group they can catch up on those other couple bosses they missed immediately after, and if they have the time, they’d be wise to down the ones they've already killed again for extra Valor.

The patch has only been out a couple days of course, but personally I think there are some people who don’t realize yet how an in-progress run, and that extra Valor, can directly translate to improved items through the new upgrade system. An in-progress run is very likely better bang for the buck to your character power due to item level upgrades than hitting cancel over and over to get a fresh run and then hoping for a boss drop.

There are of course other issues that cause LFR groups to fall apart, like boss difficulty, and those are the kinds of things we’re looking at bigger solutions for. Losing a couple people doesn’t need to mean the whole run is doomed.

I actually love this change.

Towards the end of Cata especially, I would continually get into groups that would fall apart after two or three bosses. The reason? People had already done the last two, or didn't like the group, or whatever, and just leave. Then, no one would want to join because they'd see that the group was already partway through. Then, impatient people would leave, or someone would get bored and pull a boss and cause more people to leave. But the trouble is, all those people who left would get put right back into the queue for the same group!

I called it "black hole groups," because eventually EVERYONE who queue'd would get put in for that group, but no one would accept. The only solution would have been to have EVERYBODY leave and start up a fresh queue, because if even one person stuck it out the queue would continue to match people with them. Of course, you could always try and pick out the most patient person in the group and put them on ignore before you left to requeue, but it would take forever because, again, everyone was getting shoved into the in-progress queue. Just not fun, man. :(


Hey this isn't Cata and that doesn't happen anymore.
100 Human Paladin
13020
Somebody clear this up for me though:

LFR is designed so I can see content without responsibilities or being beholden to a guild's schedule or needing consumables or anything like that.

Yet now I can't pick what LFR I step into, which is the exact opposite of convenience.

I have no say in the matter now. If I personally view LFR as mandatory then I am now forced to acquiesce to very similar constraints time-wise that I would be beholden to in a guild.

As such, can we make Raid Finder a difficulty setting that we can choose and fill on server through trade to avoid partial clears and be able to recruit people who we know are competent without queueing at all?


You can already do that.

There's nothing stopping you from making your own LFR group in trade chat and then queueing with that group. I do it every week with my guild, we queue up 10-12 strong and are almost guaranteed fresh runs every week because no in progress raid ever has need of 12 raiders including 2 tanks so it always puts in queue for a fresh group.
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