Why we need to see LFR boss status

100 Orc Hunter
8365
Ok Blizzard,

Let's expand your Scenario. I queue as a Healer, I get a group that is on last boss.

We kill the boss.

However, now I still need the first two bosses. So I queue and zone in, guess what? The groups is on last boss, the one I have already killed. So I drop group as soon as I zone in.

Exactly what has this fixed?
well for one, it shows that you dont need valor or you wouldnt have dropped and it also shows you have ALOT of time to play WOW if you are dropping and getting a 30mins deserter in order to avoid killing a boss that takes 5-6mins to kill
Edited by Zaxan on 11/29/2012 1:09 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Mage
11670
11/29/2012 12:52 PMPosted by Bashiok
You may think we’re trying to be underhanded, but the reality is we’re trying to help people be more efficient with their play time. What most people don’t realize is that if they get and complete an in-progress run, the next time they queue they will preferentially be placed into a fresh instance.

But BOTH times, you have the queue time, which can be significant. It's been over 25 minutes or more at times for me. Having to do that twice because you entered a run where X bosses were already killed adds a lot of waiting time for when I queue again to get the bosses missed.

11/29/2012 12:59 PMPosted by Lothir
The patch has only been out a couple days of course, but personally I think there are some people who don’t realize yet how an in-progress run, and that extra Valor, can directly translate to improved items through the new upgrade system.

There's no extra valor or items. What are you talking about? I get into a a 3/4 run, and kill the last boss. I get the valor and items for the boss. I queue again, and get the items (or loot rolls rather) for the first 3 bosses, but no valor, unless I stick around to do the last boss again. The last boss, mind you, wont give me a chance at loot, since I already killed it. So naturally I leave after the first 3. No incentive to stick around really. Only if I need no items from LFR is getting into an in progress group any advantage, due to the faster valour. For everybody who also wants loot, it means yay! more queuing and waiting.
Community Manager
Ok Blizzard,

Let's expand your Scenario. I queue as a Healer, I get a group that is on last boss.

We kill the boss.

However, now I still need the first two bosses. So I queue and zone in, guess what? The groups is on last boss, the one I have already killed. So I drop group as soon as I zone in.

Exactly what has this fixed?


Is this a hypothetical situation? If you're solo-queuing you should be getting a fresh instance when queuing again after completing the previous in-progress run. It's not an absolute guarantee, but pretty close to one.
Edited by Bashiok on 11/29/2012 1:11 PM PST
90 Undead Mage
9545
Right, so with 5.1 the game no longer tells you how many bosses are left for the group you’re being matched with for Raid Finder (LFR).

To explain why we made the change, let’s go back to the problem everyone was experiencing before. Let’s say a fresh LFR group is put together, they get two bosses down, and then wipe a few times on the third and lose 10 people who think they’re too cool for wiping. Now the group is down to 15, waiting for 10 new people, the queue eventually pops for those 10, and most of them see 2/6 and hit cancel. The raid still isn't full, the matchmaker has to go looking again for more people, and meanwhile as time ticks on people from the original run are getting more frustrated. Maybe a few of them leave, and then there’s even more spots to fill. Plenty of times everyone just gives up and the entire run falls apart, all those people are back in the queue, and they’ll be-damned if they join an in-progress run to fall apart again!

These kinds of things happen all of the time, and in the vast majority of situations it’s simply because people don’t like the idea of joining an in-progress run, even if it would have succeeded.

You may think we’re trying to be underhanded, but the reality is we’re trying to help people be more efficient with their play time. What most people don’t realize is that if they get and complete an in-progress run, the next time they queue they will preferentially be placed into a fresh instance. What everyone should be doing, to be the most efficient, is joining and sticking with their runs to completion. If they join an in-progress group they can catch up on those other couple bosses they missed immediately after, and if they have the time, they’d be wise to down the ones they've already killed again for extra Valor.

The patch has only been out a couple days of course, but personally I think there are some people who don’t realize yet how an in-progress run, and that extra Valor, can directly translate to improved items through the new upgrade system. An in-progress run is very likely better bang for the buck to your character power due to item level upgrades than hitting cancel over and over to get a fresh run and then hoping for a boss drop.

There are of course other issues that cause LFR groups to fall apart, like boss difficulty, and those are the kinds of things we’re looking at bigger solutions for. Losing a couple people doesn’t need to mean the whole run is doomed.


What if you are valor capped for the week? What good does killing bosses again do? Or what if you have limited play time, and would rather queue once and get your LFR done in one go? This change doesn't stop 2/6 queues from showing up. It isn't going to speed up anything. Everyone who would have gotten a 2/6 and skipped it, is now forced to do that 2/6 and then hope the next queue works as intended putting you in for the first boss, and then dropping, creating another 2/6 for someone else. I don't see how that helps at all.
90 Pandaren Mage
15970
As one of the people who requested this change a month ago and is quite pleased with it, I'd like to point out that it's been working in Dungeon Finder for a long time now. Initially I thought nerfing end bosses in LFR was the only solution, to reduce the number of people who leave towards the end. But then it was pointed out to me that Dungeon Finder enjoyed great success simply by hiding the number of dead bosses on the confirmation screen. It's not some radical new change; it's just taking a successful improvement to Dungeon Finder, and extending it to LFR.

I'll add that it'simply selfish to want the freedom to leave raids early, but not also accept the responsibility to sometimes be called upon to finish a half-completed raid. Trying to only benefit and never contribute is cheating the system. It's standard game design not to reward people who try to cheat. Nothing surprising here.
11/29/2012 01:09 PMPosted by Bashiok
Is this a hypothetical situation? If you're solo-queuing you should be getting a fresh instance when queuing again after completing the previous in-progress run. It's not an absolute guarantee, but pretty close to one.


So that logic IS still in place then?...because several threads have claimed that too is broken. I think people would not be as upset if they knew that "mid raid entry this time guarantees fresh raid entry next time" like LFR did in cata...but people have been implying that isn't the case and you can get mid raid followed by mid raid followed by mid raid ad-nauseum.
Edited by Adiathna on 11/29/2012 1:13 PM PST
95 Blood Elf Monk
12540
It's a weirdly self-perpetuating cycle because as people drop group due to wipes or whatever other reason, you get more and more people queuing into a 2/3 run, finishing it, re-queuing, then dropping at 2/3 because they can't get loot off the end boss. Making the valor for subsequent clears not diminish as much (maybe 60-70 instead of 45 for subsequent clears of a wing) could help with this (though 45 valor for sticking with a group through the last boss of an LFR wing is pretty efficient already.)

Also, on a semi-related note: do you think you guys could add in the ability to queue for multiple LFR wings at once, or maybe even a random queue (that prioritizes putting you in runs with bosses you can loot)?
100 Night Elf Hunter
11070
Ok Blizzard,

Let's expand your Scenario. I queue as a Healer, I get a group that is on last boss.

We kill the boss.

However, now I still need the first two bosses. So I queue and zone in, guess what? The groups is on last boss, the one I have already killed. So I drop group as soon as I zone in.

Exactly what has this fixed?


Is this a hypothetical situation? If you're solo-queuing you should be getting a fresh instance when queuing again after completing the previous in-progress run. It's not an absolute guarantee, but pretty close to one.


It should be an absolute guarantee or you are wasting a players time.

Why can he not stay in a queue for however long it takes to make a 100% fresh run if he stayed in your not fresh one?
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14000
Ok Blizzard,

Let's expand your Scenario. I queue as a Healer, I get a group that is on last boss.

We kill the boss.

However, now I still need the first two bosses. So I queue and zone in, guess what? The groups is on last boss, the one I have already killed. So I drop group as soon as I zone in.

Exactly what has this fixed?


I think your mistaken. I have never got a non fresh run after doing one in progress.
90 Gnome Priest
10490
I really didn't realize this was an issue. I never recall waiting more than 5 minutes for an LFR group to fill after losing a bunch of people. Most of the time the group was full again by the time loot even went out. Am I really that lucky? How many people were really losing entire LFR groups because people were denying queues?

Seems to me like there are many other ways to get people to take queues (like incentives), instead of tricking people into taking in progress dungeons when they really don't want or need one.
11/29/2012 12:52 PMPosted by Bashiok
What most people don’t realize is that if they get and complete an in-progress run, the next time they queue they will preferentially be placed into a fresh instance.


This is the main problem i have, pissed me off to no end to join a run in progress complete it and then re-queue to get 20 more in progress runs.

If it is guaranteed that i will get a fresh run after a partial run I'm good if not then the status needs to be put back.
90 Draenei Shaman
11635
11/29/2012 01:03 PMPosted by Bashiok
There's a deserter debuff given if you don't stay and participate in the raid.


As a healer, I NEVER will do a 1/6 or 2/6 already defeated LFR. EVER.

I will simply place myself on auto-follow, and either afk or simply stand there and heal only myself, in the hopes of either getting kicked and avoiding said debuff, they'll wipe - in which I can leave without said debuff or they'll complete the run without me and I'll get gold or gear. Either way, I get what I want out of the deal.

When I run my LFRs for the week, I intend to get only fresh runs and start at the beginning of each instance I do. Period. This change isn't going to change anything for me.

And there are many more people like me apparently, if this change is any indication.
Edited by Niialuna on 11/29/2012 1:18 PM PST
90 Human Paladin
11625
Ok Blizzard,

Let's expand your Scenario. I queue as a Healer, I get a group that is on last boss.

We kill the boss.

However, now I still need the first two bosses. So I queue and zone in, guess what? The groups is on last boss, the one I have already killed. So I drop group as soon as I zone in.

Exactly what has this fixed?


I think that is a bug, they said if you get in a 2/3 run and then do it your next one should be fresh.
Ok Blizzard,

Let's expand your Scenario. I queue as a Healer, I get a group that is on last boss.

We kill the boss.

However, now I still need the first two bosses. So I queue and zone in, guess what? The groups is on last boss, the one I have already killed. So I drop group as soon as I zone in.

Exactly what has this fixed?


I think your mistaken. I have never got a non fresh run after doing one in progress.

Just because you got fresh runs after partials doesn't mean others haven't had this happen.
90 Orc Shaman
10890
11/29/2012 01:15 PMPosted by Niialuna
I will simply place myself on auto-follow, and either afk or simply stand there and heal only myself, in the hopes of either getting kicked and avoiding said debuff, or they'll complete the run without me and I'll get gold or gear. Either way, I get what I want out of the deal.


That's a classy thing to do, and certainly not selfish in any way.
61 Pandaren Mage
10105
11/29/2012 01:15 PMPosted by Niialuna
There's a deserter debuff given if you don't stay and participate in the raid.


As a healer, I NEVER will do a 1/6 or 2/6 already defeated LFR. EVER.

I will simply place myself on auto-follow, and either afk or simply stand there and heal only myself, in the hopes of either getting kicked and avoiding said debuff, or they'll complete the run without me and I'll get gold or gear. Either way, I get what I want out of the deal.

When I run my LFRs for the week, I intend to get only fresh runs and start at the beginning of each instance I do. Period. This change isn't going to change anything for me.

And there are many more people like me apparently, if this change is any indication.


This is why you join a guild or raid team. LFR seems to be creating more problems than it solved, because people are just in it for the gear.
100 Night Elf Hunter
11070
As one of the people who requested this change a month ago and is quite pleased with it, I'd like to point out that it's been working in Dungeon Finder for a long time now. Initially I thought nerfing end bosses in LFR was the only solution, to reduce the number of people who leave towards the end. But then it was pointed out to me that Dungeon Finder enjoyed great success simply by hiding the number of dead bosses on the confirmation screen. It's not some radical new change; it's just taking a successful improvement to Dungeon Finder, and extending it to LFR.

I'll add that it'simply selfish to want the freedom to leave raids early, but not also accept the responsibility to sometimes be called upon to finish a half-completed raid. Trying to only benefit and never contribute is cheating the system. It's standard game design not to reward people who try to cheat. Nothing surprising here.


There is a huge difference in dungeons versus LFR.

I tend to do dungeons only because I need valor.

Sometimes I do LFR for valor other times I simply do it to get to a certain boss for a chance at what that boss drops.

If I need boss two and get into a group that is 2/3 and I do not need valor I will drop group no matter how log the Debuff is for since I have no need for that boss.

So this "solution" does not help me or the group.

I guess I could try to wipe the group a couple times so I could avoid the debuff although i would hate to have to resort to things like that because Blizzard forces me into a group I would have declined.
90 Night Elf Death Knight
15300
So instead of letting me see what bosses are dead (The ones I need to kill), now I get to zone in randomly to see people are past the boss I need to kill. Which means I need to requeue AGAIN to get the boss I want dead, dead. And once that boss is dead, I can leave the run and create the same problem for someone else.

Interesting logic there blizzard. If you're going to leave this dumb option in, give us the option to queue for fresh instances or in progress instances. Otherwise I'll just happily let people die when I bail on a group because they had the misfortune to waste my time by queueing me into something I didn't even need.

Oh yeah, I just told you another problem. Awesome.
100 Gnome Priest
11930
Ty for that addon link, saved me from have to kill again the last boss.
90 Gnome Priest
10490
11/29/2012 01:17 PMPosted by Dezu
I will simply place myself on auto-follow, and either afk or simply stand there and heal only myself, in the hopes of either getting kicked and avoiding said debuff, or they'll complete the run without me and I'll get gold or gear. Either way, I get what I want out of the deal.


That's a classy thing to do, and certainly not selfish in any way.


It's not a great thing to do, but if they get kicked after even 10 minutes, they just saved themselves 20. I don't blame them for that at all.
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