Why doesn't Bliz release *full* patch notes?

90 Draenei Shaman
8765
pretty much every undocumented change was pvp related, what a coincidence
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11780
I think this is a big, Big, BIG point.

Nobody at Blizz knows what is being released. They document what they can identify, wait for players to post, then ask around the office, "Hey, did anybody change X?" If nobody pipes up, it must be a bug.

But the fact that deliberate changes are being promoted to production and NOBODY KNOWS about it? That's sloppy.


Is this game just getting to big to handle maybe
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10 Tauren Shaman
0
11/28/2012 08:31 PMPosted by Zinstorm


I still don't see how that's an advantage. We always have the option of discussing a topic or not. 'Hiding' something would just make people grumpier when it sneaks up on them, which makes it even harder to speak about it in a constructive atmosphere.

I'll be honest: I'm having a hard time picturing how you think things work around here. I admit to having a nice diabolic cackle now and then, but it's not like I'm sitting in front of a bank of monitors each filled with an angry forum thread, stroking a siamese cat and telling my henchmen that they've failed me for the last time.


It's post like this which remind us that the people at blizzard (like us) are only human... and that I'd like to think that everything they do ISN'T done solely to make our lives miserable.


That doesn't mean we can't ask that they work like a normal software company and tell us what they are changing with software updates!
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90 Pandaren Monk
8905
11/28/2012 07:33 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I admit to having a nice diabolic cackle now and then, but it's not like I'm sitting in front of a bank of monitors each filled with an angry forum thread, stroking a siamese cat and telling my henchmen that they've failed me for the last time.


This is how I want to think of you from now on. Neth, too. Especially Neth. Her forum persona always seems so exceptionally kind and patient. It's funny to think of her having an army of evil minions. She has a Persian, though.
Edited by Chunk on 11/29/2012 11:20 AM PST
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10 Tauren Shaman
0
I think this is a big, Big, BIG point.

Nobody at Blizz knows what is being released. They document what they can identify, wait for players to post, then ask around the office, "Hey, did anybody change X?" If nobody pipes up, it must be a bug.

But the fact that deliberate changes are being promoted to production and NOBODY KNOWS about it? That's sloppy.


Is this game just getting to big to handle maybe


I think people just stopped caring.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
8900

So your argument seems to be that Blizzard thinks it's a good idea to have a long, steady stream of QQ instead of getting it all at once?

I think the fact that they are a business it what makes me disinclined to believe they are angering players on purpose and then lying to them about it again on purpose even though historically this has always lead to even more anger. Businesses don't tend to anger their customers on purpose, you know?


Yes but businesses are there to SATISFY the customers.

Are you satisfied finding a nerf on your class that you were never told about?

Are you satisfied that Blizzard refuses to respond to any threads about nerfs (I.E. SHAMANS)?

Believe me. Im sure as hell not.


Personaly I belive they don't respond to balance changes very often because there isn't a point.

85% of any player that has his favorite class nerfed isn't going to take any response to said nerf as "reasonable" and the few who do... will just tell blizzard "this isn't how you should nerf this... you should do it (insert poor reasoning fix here) or you should nerf "so and so" class instead.. they are the real troublemakers.

The players treat there word as the gospel instead of what it should be treated as... suggestions. No mater what blizzard would say... the "man" is always wrong and we are being oppressed by them.

I've seen this soooooooooooooooooo many times on starcraft 2 and on the world of warcraft forums... It's a no win situation for blizzard so they don't even bother with it.
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100 Human Priest
13690
But won't this just perpetuate the problem of people leaving during raids even more?

If I join a partially finished raid, then go to another raid to finish the bosses I haven't done I will then be leaving after completing the bosses I need. Blizz needs to find some way to keep people in the raid for the whole thing from boss 1 to until the end.


We're always working toward a better system. In the meantime, while the scenario you describe could happen, we should still see more consistent groups and lower queue times than we were seeing previously.


The scenario described will happen often.

Let's say I get in a 2/3 and kill the final boss only getting the bag of gold. I queue again and get put into a fresh run where I get two more bags of gold and I stick around for the last boss again because I do not want to inconvenience someone else by forcing them into a 2/3. The RNG gods decide to smile on me for the final boss but wait.... I am ineligible for loot. Not only am I ineligible for loot but the game decides to rub my face in the loot I would have won if I were eligible.

People rage now over only getting gold, imagine the rage when they finally get a drop but are not eligible because they were forced into the previous 2/3 run.
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10 Tauren Shaman
0


Yes but businesses are there to SATISFY the customers.

Are you satisfied finding a nerf on your class that you were never told about?

Are you satisfied that Blizzard refuses to respond to any threads about nerfs (I.E. SHAMANS)?

Believe me. Im sure as hell not.


Personaly I belive they don't respond to balance changes very often because there isn't a point.

85% of any player that has his favorite class nerfed isn't going to take any response to said nerf as "reasonable" and the few who do... will just tell blizzard "this isn't how you should nerf this... you should do it (insert poor reasoning fix here) or you should nerf "so and so" class instead.. they are the real troublemakers.

The players treat there word as the gospel instead of what it should be treated as... suggestions. No mater what blizzard would say... the "man" is always wrong and we are being oppressed by them.

I've seen this soooooooooooooooooo many times on starcraft 2 and on the world of warcraft forums... It's a no win situation for blizzard so they don't even bother with it.


Brawlers guild changes has nothing to do with balance changes. LFR changes has nothing to do with balance. Time Zone changes have nothing to do with balance. None of these changes were in the notes or admitted to when the patch was released.
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90 Troll Death Knight
13075
11/28/2012 08:45 PMPosted by Cordanus
Brawlers guild changes has nothing to do with balance changes. LFR changes has nothing to do with balance. Time Zone changes have nothing to do with balance. None of these changes were in the notes or admitted to when the patch was released.

Add pet battle experience to the list. Pet battle experience was nerfed across the board, capped now at 300-400 or so per pet no matter what level the pet is or the pet it defeated. Also, dead pets now absorb experience, so if a pet dies the experience is just lost instead of passed onto the surviving pet.

Note that the buff to Pandarian trainer xp was documented.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12155
While I understand mess-ups and mistakes can happen, how can you expect to get feedback on changes on a PTR no less, if players are not aware of things changing?

The added PvP Power to weapons would of been a huge topic of discussion because pvp damage is already absurd in pvp and this just makes matters worst. I would of been a lot more vocal in trying to persuade blizzard into also buffing the baseline resilience or something along the lines of that to balance things out.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
8900


Personaly I belive they don't respond to balance changes very often because there isn't a point.

85% of any player that has his favorite class nerfed isn't going to take any response to said nerf as "reasonable" and the few who do... will just tell blizzard "this isn't how you should nerf this... you should do it (insert poor reasoning fix here) or you should nerf "so and so" class instead.. they are the real troublemakers.

The players treat there word as the gospel instead of what it should be treated as... suggestions. No mater what blizzard would say... the "man" is always wrong and we are being oppressed by them.

I've seen this soooooooooooooooooo many times on starcraft 2 and on the world of warcraft forums... It's a no win situation for blizzard so they don't even bother with it.


Brawlers guild changes has nothing to do with balance changes. LFR changes has nothing to do with balance. Time Zone changes have nothing to do with balance. None of these changes were in the notes or admitted to when the patch was released.

If you look closely you will see that the person I was quoting was complaining about why they rarely respond to class balance changes... my post was an answer to that.

as for your post.. blizzard have already said (in this very thread i might add) why they weren't in the patch notes... i suggest you go back and read the blue posts.
Edited by Zinstorm on 11/28/2012 8:51 PM PST
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100 Troll Shaman
14395
While this may not resolve the main issue here (what should be in the notes and what shouldn't), I would suggest looking up on Wowpedia for a patch's list of undocumented changes. It greatly depends on players keeping a sharp eye out for things, but it's still better than nothing.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Patch_5.1.0_(undocumented_changes)
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Idk if we are just listing overly idiotic changes with this patch that were never documented...but the one that I noticed first was the nerf to mining and herb nodes (I do not know if that was mentioned earlier).

Seriously? Why did you guys nerf this? What was to gain? The economies on servers were not collapsing due to this. It kept prices low which allowed more people to get into the economy so it did not feel dead anymore. People even then, were making lots of gold selling these materials through the AH or over trade in huge bundles. What was the cause of this change, Daxxarri?

I've been making DMF cards for our raiders by farming a weekly supply of herbs in a very reasonable time, then farming what ore i needed during the week for living steel cooldowns immediately after that. Now to do that I have to spend nearly 800% more time farming materials. Its almost not even worth it anymore.

I figured I would ask since this thread has your attention. I hope your reasoning is not to deter bots from farming large quantities of materials. I am personally getting tired of that 'excuse' from your dev team. All you guys are doing is hurting players by taking the easy way out on limiting resources.
Edited by Xidachi on 11/28/2012 8:55 PM PST
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10 Tauren Shaman
0
Hopefully we can get a CM or Dax to comment on a non-conspiracy theory question. They seem to focus on them to belittle the real issue.
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1 Gnome Priest
0

Lol anyone who argues that players can't read all the notes if they wanted are insulting people. Can players not read? If they don't need to then dont, but patch notes are evidence for Blizz and I can't understand why they refuse to provide certain information


Evidence of what? Patch notes are not a replacement for version control revision history. Since it's well known that blizzard at least has a license for github enterprise, it's probably safe to assume that they run git.
Edited by Mescyn on 11/28/2012 8:57 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
17760
11/28/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Daxxarri
So it's just coincidence that almost all of the stuff that you "forgot" to put in the patch notes are things that negatively impact the game?


I have a question for you:

Do you really think that we believe that players are happier to find these things out on accident, with no warning? That somehow we think we can slip things by un-detected, when logic, history, and all evidence points to the contrary?

What's the advantage there?


The big benefit is that you guys can pretend it's a bug if we find it and reverse it or sort of surprise it with is and hope we like it or tolerate it. So far the worst thing I've seen in this patch is an 80% - 90% reduction in pet battle exp from all sources, lack of safari hat reward, and the new pets being all on long rare spawn cooldowns.

Nerfing node spawns is another thing. Do you believe it'll help legitimate players? Absolutely not and it wont stop bots either. Instead it just makes things overall more expensive for everyone and more unpleasant.
Edited by Nightsbane on 11/28/2012 8:57 PM PST
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10 Tauren Shaman
0


Brawlers guild changes has nothing to do with balance changes. LFR changes has nothing to do with balance. Time Zone changes have nothing to do with balance. None of these changes were in the notes or admitted to when the patch was released.

If you look closely you will see that the person I was quoting was complaining about why they rarely respond to class balance changes... my post was an answer to that.

as for your post.. blizzard have already said (in this very thread i might add) why they weren't in the patch notes... i suggest you go back and read the blue posts.


I was making a response to the actual subject of the thread. Trying to get it back on subject if you will. Please tell me what part of the blue post you find an acceptable answer to the question of undocumented changes?
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7 Gnome Mage
0
11/28/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Daxxarri
So it's just coincidence that almost all of the stuff that you "forgot" to put in the patch notes are things that negatively impact the game?


I have a question for you:

Do you really think that we believe that players are happier to find these things out on accident, with no warning? That somehow we think we can slip things by un-detected, when logic, history, and all evidence points to the contrary?

What's the advantage there?


It's done all the time. Some corollary of the adage, "It's easier to apologize than ask for permission." applies here. Once it's in the code, it's pretty much a done deal and you're banking on past experience that people will complain for a few days on the forums rather than cancel their subscriptions. (There have been a couple of instances where an unpopular change has been reverted, but the uproar was near universal and people voted with their wallets. Like the real name on forums thing.)
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
8900
11/28/2012 08:54 PMPosted by Cordanus
Hopefully we can get a CM or Dax to comment on a non-conspiracy theory question. They seem to focus on them to belittle the real issue.


That's kind of the community's fault... they wouldn't focus on them so much if they weren't said so often and if the community didn't semi endorse them.

we are reaping our reward. :p
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
8900


If you look closely you will see that the person I was quoting was complaining about why they rarely respond to class balance changes... my post was an answer to that.

as for your post.. blizzard have already said (in this very thread i might add) why they weren't in the patch notes... i suggest you go back and read the blue posts.


I was making a response to the actual subject of the thread. Trying to get it back on subject if you will. Please tell me what part of the blue post you find an acceptable answer to the question of undocumented changes?


The very first blue post is an answer (still on the fence personally on if i find it "an acceptable answer") but if you want a blue post that rang true in my eyes:

11/28/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Daxxarri
So it's just coincidence that almost all of the stuff that you "forgot" to put in the patch notes are things that negatively impact the game?


I have a question for you:

Do you really think that we believe that players are happier to find these things out on accident, with no warning? That somehow we think we can slip things by un-detected, when logic, history, and all evidence points to the contrary?

What's the advantage there?
Edited by Zinstorm on 11/28/2012 9:02 PM PST
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