Why doesn't Bliz release *full* patch notes?

10 Tauren Shaman
0
11/28/2012 08:58 PMPosted by Zinstorm
Hopefully we can get a CM or Dax to comment on a non-conspiracy theory question. They seem to focus on them to belittle the real issue.


That's kind of the community's fault... they wouldn't focus on them so much if they weren't said so often and if the community didn't semi endorse them.

we are reaping our reward. :p


There wouldn't be so many conspiracy theories if they would just tell us what is happening!

Sure there would be some, but the rational people could help shoot them down with the documented changes.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
10285
Ugh... I can't tell you how much i hate being the last poster on a page (and thus having my post "cut off"). to summarize I don't think blizzard is out to get us.. as so many people seem to think.
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10 Tauren Shaman
0


I was making a response to the actual subject of the thread. Trying to get it back on subject if you will. Please tell me what part of the blue post you find an acceptable answer to the question of undocumented changes?


The very first blue post is an answer (still on the fence personally on if i find it "an acceptable answer") but if you want a blue post that rang true in my eyes:

11/28/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Daxxarri


I have a question for you:

Do you really think that we believe that players are happier to find these things out on accident, with no warning? That somehow we think we can slip things by un-detected, when logic, history, and all evidence points to the contrary?

What's the advantage there?


What you quoted was a response to a conspiracy theory! Which I have a problem with. Blues tend to only respond to those, then whine that those are the only questions they get on the forums.

I just want to know why a software company can't keep proper patch notes on changes they make.
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90 Tauren Druid
6745

I'll be honest: I'm having a hard time picturing how you think things work around here. I admit to having a nice diabolic cackle now and then, but it's not like I'm sitting in front of a bank of monitors each filled with an angry forum thread, stroking a siamese cat and telling my henchmen that they've failed me for the last time.


I actually don't have a problem with that, as long as it's done in an exotic accent, and accompanied by a detailed and meticulous description of exactly how the stealth nerfs are to be implemented - just before you press the red button and leave the room.
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91 Night Elf Hunter
14395
And what's the deal with the nerf to Spirit of Harmony -> Golden Lotus conversions? Used to be 3 Lotus per Spirit, now it's only two. Really wish I would have known about that before the patch so I could have spent all of my Spirits ahead of time. :(
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71 Undead Death Knight
1010
11/28/2012 07:33 PMPosted by Daxxarri
The advantage is you can simply ignore addressing the issue like is almost always done with "stealth nerfs." Just change it and not say a word.


I still don't see how that's an advantage. We always have the option of discussing a topic or not. 'Hiding' something would just make people grumpier when it sneaks up on them, which makes it even harder to speak about it in a constructive atmosphere.

I'll be honest: I'm having a hard time picturing how you think things work around here. I admit to having a nice diabolic cackle now and then, but it's not like I'm sitting in front of a bank of monitors each filled with an angry forum thread, stroking a siamese cat and telling my henchmen that they've failed me for the last time.


Sorry had to post my own diabolical cackle here. I'm a long time James Bond fan (I'm rather old so long time is really the correct wording) and those scenes in particular (though didn't think the cat was siamese) were some of my favorites. Nice imagery conjuration on your part, Dax. Thanks for the chuckle.

As to the advantage to leaving things out... you're right. It would not be constructive to do so and regardless what Blizz does or you post in the notes, there will always be those in the playerbase that are not going to be happy. In this case, as you've stated, someone found something that should have been included and you are rectifying that now. Pointing out things that should have been included is one thing, even Blues are human... well... human behind the avatar... wel... at least we assume so *grin*, and so errors are bound to occur but getting huffy and saying Blizz/you are deliberately leaving things out; that's not only rude but unrealistic and the characteristic of an immature attitude.

Anyway, thanks for the Bond reference. Loved it!
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12830
Also, you should note that you only get 2 Golden Lotus's per Spirit of Harmony, instead of 3.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
10285


The very first blue post is an answer (still on the fence personally on if i find it "an acceptable answer") but if you want a blue post that rang true in my eyes:



What you quoted was a response to a conspiracy theory! Which I have a problem with. Blues tend to only respond to those, then whine that those are the only questions they get on the forums.

I just want to know why a software company can't keep proper patch notes on changes they make.


Essentially, the development of every World of Warcraft patch is a highly iterative creative process. Like most creative processes, there's a little bit of chaos involved, with discreet sub-teams working on individual projects, but also coordinating closely at the same time, so there's always a frenzy of activity going on at any given moment. With that in mind, there's not one comprehensive, monolithic source of information on what's being changed. Instead, information needs to be solicited, provided, re-phrased, confirmed, re-confirmed, edited, and revised as the patch is developed and I compile the notes. That also means that if there's an omission, you can be reasonably certain that it wasn't intentional. It's also worth noting that, as the code changes to resolve issues and implement new features, sometimes things go unexpectedly wonky with older parts of the game.

I'm careful to compile the notes as completely as possible, but it's not unlikely that some things will slip through the cracks from time to time. Perhaps an item didn't follow a typical development pipeline, or something was fixed at the last second. And of course, there will be rare occasions when I simply make an error and omit something that should have been included.


So according to blizzard the answer to your question is human error... weather you agree that's reasonable or not... every profession in the world has human error in some way shape or form... so this can be a fesable answer.
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90 Troll Shaman
10770
11/28/2012 07:12 PMPosted by Daxxarri
That's not precisely the case, but we do try to keep things relatively concise. Admittedly, there are many changes that occur that wouldn't mean anything at all to 99% of players, and really crunchy notes of that sort have historically always been omitted.


Dropping the amount of Golden Lotus obtained through Spirits of Harmony from 3 to 2 is significant.

Nerfing the spawn on Herbs is significant.

There are quite a few changes that were omitted that really shouldn't be. We want to know pretty much every single change that could affect us, as a whole, before it's applied rather than when it's applied so our concerns can be addressed beforehand.. PTR notes aren't always accurate when trying to cover all of the changes, so a preliminary Patch Notes release would be optimal to get the feedback you guys say you're so interested in.
Edited by Llamasham on 11/28/2012 9:27 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10175
11/28/2012 07:45 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I've been updating the notes as items are confirmed.


WHO IS CONFIRMING THESE THINGS?!?!

The players who find them...

This has to be up there with the most retarded things I have read from a CM.

This is why you havent added every change in the patch notes, because you hope things will slip by un-noticed and people wont be able to tell.

Then it will be a whole case of wah nerfs vs tin-foiled hat donning Blizz fan bois saying peoples RNG is just bad.

Mining / Herb nodes HAVE been nerfed
2 Golden Lotus instead of 3 per Harmony = NERF
The new annoyance of text on my gear WTF is that crap who asked for green text and different coloured text on my gear.. If you want different textures and shades change the DULL as crap weapons and armor you have made.

Stop thinking the playerbase is stupid OR stop acting like a stupid CM cause thats how you are coming across.

ERM I DIDNT KNOW IT WAS CHANGED... THANKS PLAYERS FOR CONFIRMING!!!

WTF is that? Are you stupid.
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10 Tauren Shaman
0


What you quoted was a response to a conspiracy theory! Which I have a problem with. Blues tend to only respond to those, then whine that those are the only questions they get on the forums.

I just want to know why a software company can't keep proper patch notes on changes they make.


Essentially, the development of every World of Warcraft patch is a highly iterative creative process. Like most creative processes, there's a little bit of chaos involved, with discreet sub-teams working on individual projects, but also coordinating closely at the same time, so there's always a frenzy of activity going on at any given moment. With that in mind, there's not one comprehensive, monolithic source of information on what's being changed. Instead, information needs to be solicited, provided, re-phrased, confirmed, re-confirmed, edited, and revised as the patch is developed and I compile the notes. That also means that if there's an omission, you can be reasonably certain that it wasn't intentional. It's also worth noting that, as the code changes to resolve issues and implement new features, sometimes things go unexpectedly wonky with older parts of the game.

I'm careful to compile the notes as completely as possible, but it's not unlikely that some things will slip through the cracks from time to time. Perhaps an item didn't follow a typical development pipeline, or something was fixed at the last second. And of course, there will be rare occasions when I simply make an error and omit something that should have been included.


So according to blizzard the answer to your question is human error... weather you agree that's reasonable or not... every profession in the world has human error in some way shape or form... so this can be a fesable answer.


Fesable? Sure. Acceptable? No. This isn't some 5 man company flying by the seat of their pants. It's a huge company that should have this covered. I'm sorry, but I'm used to dealing with software companies that drop 1000+ page release notes covering everything that they change. It's not like these people said the night before they'll change time zones, change LFR queues, and change everything else. There has to be a management decision to include it in the patch.

It's either Dax's error for not including it, or he wasn't told. Either way it needs to be changed.
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100 Night Elf Priest
9140
While I understand mess-ups and mistakes can happen, how can you expect to get feedback on changes on a PTR no less, if players are not aware of things changing?

The added PvP Power to weapons would of been a huge topic of discussion because pvp damage is already absurd in pvp and this just makes matters worst. I would of been a lot more vocal in trying to persuade blizzard into also buffing the baseline resilience or something along the lines of that to balance things out.


The PTR is NOT for players to identify issues with gameplay or balance.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
10285
11/28/2012 09:20 PMPosted by Palwiful
I've been updating the notes as items are confirmed.


WHO IS CONFIRMING THESE THINGS?!?!

The players who find them...

This has to be up there with the most retarded things I have read from a CM.

This is why you havent added every change in the patch notes, because you hope things will slip by un-noticed and people wont be able to tell.

Then it will be a whole case of wah nerfs vs tin-foiled hat donning Blizz fan bois saying peoples RNG is just bad.

Mining / Herb nodes HAVE been nerfed
2 Golden Lotus instead of 3 per Harmony = NERF
The new annoyance of text on my gear WTF is that crap who asked for green text and different coloured text on my gear.. If you want different textures and shades change the DULL as crap weapons and armor you have made.

Stop thinking the playerbase is stupid OR stop acting like a stupid CM cause thats how you are coming across.

ERM I DIDNT KNOW IT WAS CHANGED... THANKS PLAYERS FOR CONFIRMING!!!

WTF is that? Are you stupid.


ether this person failed to read the first 2 blue posts in this thread... or he's ignoring them.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
10285




So according to blizzard the answer to your question is human error... weather you agree that's reasonable or not... every profession in the world has human error in some way shape or form... so this can be a fesable answer.


Fesable? Sure. Acceptable? No. This isn't some 5 man company flying by the seat of their pants. It's a huge company that should have this covered. I'm sorry, but I'm used to dealing with software companies that drop 1000+ page release notes covering everything that they change. It's not like these people said the night before they'll change time zones, change LFR queues, and change everything else. There has to be a management decision to include it in the patch.

It's either Dax's error for not including it, or he wasn't told. Either way it needs to be changed.


Fair enough.
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90 Troll Shaman
10770
11/28/2012 09:20 PMPosted by Palwiful
I've been updating the notes as items are confirmed.


WHO IS CONFIRMING THESE THINGS?!?!


More importantly, why aren't Blizzard Employees (ESPECIALLY the CM's) given a list of patch notes from the Developers? Seems like the lack of communication is getting worse over there.

Good example of the lack of communication, reporting an issue with something, no matter how small, to a GM or "Customer Support Representative" will get you nowhere. According to the Blizzard "LEGAL" Department, CS Reps are not allowed to relay information to the developers. (As was said by a CS Rep via in-game chat, in response to a ticket, about 2 months ago or so.)
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93 Troll Death Knight
13505
11/28/2012 09:15 PMPosted by Zinstorm
So according to blizzard the answer to your question is human error... weather you agree that's reasonable or not... every profession in the world has human error in some way shape or form... so this can be a fesable answer.

Actually, he didn't confirm whether or not it was human error. He was very careful in his word choice, saying that it could possibly be his fault, or perhaps he was never given the information to relay to us in the first place.

That way, to us, we can say it might not have been his fault. And to his superiors or whomever, he can say, "Look, I never actually blamed you. I said it might be my fault." He's placating both sides.

Honestly, if you think about it, if he's being withheld information, it would be therefore impossible for him to know whether or not it was accidental. Because in being unaware of the information, how could he know why he wasn't?
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11/28/2012 07:12 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Essentially, the development of every World of Warcraft patch is a highly iterative creative process. Like most creative processes, there's a little bit of chaos involved, with discreet sub-teams working on individual projects, but also coordinating closely at the same time, so there's always a frenzy of activity going on at any given moment. With that in mind, there's not one comprehensive, monolithic source of information on what's being changed.


I work in the software industry. While the software I work on is admittedly not on the scale of WoW, I have a hard time believing that you don't have change control processes in place, which includes clear documentation of what is actually changing in the code. Even if you do have multiple teams making adjustments, fixing bugs, etc--any software development worth its salt is going to have project managers and change controllers in place to ensure there's a clear map of how the code is changing.

In any case, I think the issue here relates to 1) the sheer amount of undocumented changes, 2) how substantial many of these changes are, and 3) that most of the changes are overwhelmingly negative in nature, which leads to the perception that they weren't publicized for a reason.
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93 Troll Death Knight
13505
11/28/2012 09:32 PMPosted by Vesada
I think the issue here relates to 1) the sheer amount of undocumented changes, 2) how substantial many of these changes are, and 3) that most of the changes are overwhelmingly negative in nature, which leads to the perception that they weren't publicized for a reason.

Perfectly said.
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10 Tauren Shaman
0


Fesable? Sure. Acceptable? No. This isn't some 5 man company flying by the seat of their pants. It's a huge company that should have this covered. I'm sorry, but I'm used to dealing with software companies that drop 1000+ page release notes covering everything that they change. It's not like these people said the night before they'll change time zones, change LFR queues, and change everything else. There has to be a management decision to include it in the patch.

It's either Dax's error for not including it, or he wasn't told. Either way it needs to be changed.


Fair enough.


I just hope Dax will comment on this. I'd like to know why they think it's acceptable.
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