Arms PvE, should I be worried?

90 Dwarf Priest
17755
New simcraft is out, and arms is supposedly dead last.

http://simulationcraft.org/510/Raid_T14H.html

I don't want to go fury =(
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90 Human Warrior
12950
Don't worry, it will only get worse from here.
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90 Pandaren Monk
10205
Fury has been the PvE spec for years, not sure why you're not used to this.
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90 Orc Warrior
11685
11/30/2012 12:40 PMPosted by Drayjin
Fury has been the PvE spec for years, not sure why you're not used to this.


Because Arms was so much better than Fury in DS it wasn't even funny. It got people thinking "oh hey, I liked having a choice in what to play", which is bad considering Arms will never get buffed in PvE considering our burst potential in PvP.
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90 Orc Hunter
0
11/30/2012 06:14 PMPosted by Nodokk
Because Arms was so much better than Fury in DS it wasn't even funny. It got people thinking "oh hey, I liked having a choice in what to play", which is bad considering Arms will never get buffed in PvE considering our burst potential in PvP.
Wait... I'm confused by the logic.. how is that a choice in what to play? That just forces you from one spec to another >.>.
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90 Human Warrior
12950
11/30/2012 06:44 PMPosted by Lazyguide
Because Arms was so much better than Fury in DS it wasn't even funny. It got people thinking "oh hey, I liked having a choice in what to play", which is bad considering Arms will never get buffed in PvE considering our burst potential in PvP.
Wait... I'm confused by the logic.. how is that a choice in what to play? That just forces you from one spec to another >.>.


I think he means it got people realizing that there was in fact a second DPS spec that warriors have. With Arms pulling ahead for basically the first time, a lot of people probably tried it who never had before and realized they preferred the playstyle better.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
12760
12/01/2012 05:35 AMPosted by Secondwind
With Arms pulling ahead for basically the first time, a lot of people probably tried it who never had before and realized they preferred the playstyle better.

No doubt. Minor point, though: how relevant would it be now since Arms' distinctions in Cataclysm — Overpower usage window, lower-cost filler attack, purely rhythmic rotation — were eliminated in the Mists beta?
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90 Human Warrior
12950
12/01/2012 07:02 AMPosted by Aedilhild
With Arms pulling ahead for basically the first time, a lot of people probably tried it who never had before and realized they preferred the playstyle better.

No doubt. Minor point, though: how relevant would it be now since Arms' distinctions in Cataclysm — Overpower usage window, lower-cost filler attack, purely rhythmic rotation — were eliminated in the Mists beta?


True. That said since coming back (I missed most of Cata, and thus also the point where Arms was actually on top, go figure), I've tried both DPS specs and still can't bring myself to like Fury. Arms' current playstyle is definitely different from where it was in Cata, but I still feel like it has a better flow to it than Fury, and is different enough that it would be nice for it to be viable.

I'm just glad LFR was put in, so I can be super casual, chill out as Arms, and still get to go through all the content. My main concern is that whenever 5.2 hits and the new tier comes in, Arms is laughably bad in the baseline gear for the new tier. Right now while Arms is terrible at the top, at low gear levels it's close enough to everyone else it doesn't matter to me.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
12760
That's fair (for me, Fury plays more like Cata Arms even if mechanics are considerably different). As for Arms' future, poor scaling wouldn't surprise me.
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88 Orc Warrior
9400
12/01/2012 05:35 AMPosted by Secondwind
Wait... I'm confused by the logic.. how is that a choice in what to play? That just forces you from one spec to another >.>.


I think he means it got people realizing that there was in fact a second DPS spec that warriors have. With Arms pulling ahead for basically the first time, a lot of people probably tried it who never had before and realized they preferred the playstyle better.


well, truth be told, arms was also very good in BC with the introduction of Armor penetration

mmm Arp gear...I miss you so
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90 Dwarf Priest
17755
While arms did do well in DS, arms as a pve spec has been very lacking almost every expansion as a whole. It looks to be returning to that trend again, which I really hope is not the case. Arms has always had poor scaling and the "PvP burst" associated with it that makes buffs to PvE hard. I don't mind arms being below fury, but arms has consistently through the last 3 or 4 expansions (short of dragon soul of course) just been inferior compared to all the DPS specs as a whole.

Speaking as a longtime arms players, I really love the playstyle and would just like to see Blizzard give it decent scaling so that it doesn't fall behind like it usually does every expansion.
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88 Orc Warrior
9400
12/01/2012 11:46 AMPosted by Angelic
While arms did do well in DS, arms as a pve spec has been very lacking almost every expansion as a whole.


not entirely true

It was good almost all of cata if you used the appropriate build. (dipping into the prot tree)

It was meh in wrath compared to fury,(everyone was, fury was OP in wrath) but good on certain fights (especially cleave fights with bladestorm/sweeping strikes)

It was good for the 2nd half of BC with the advent of arp

it was meh in vanilla compared to fury, but had good offtanking(before dual speccing)
Edited by Ravenbeer on 12/1/2012 11:55 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Priest
17755
While arms did do well in DS, arms as a pve spec has been very lacking almost every expansion as a whole.


not entirely true

It was good almost all of cata if you used the appropriate build. (dipping into the prot tree)

It was meh in wrath compared to fury,(everyone was, fury was OP in wrath) but good on certain fights (especially cleave fights with bladestorm/sweeping strikes)

It was good for the 2nd half of BC with the advent of arp

it was meh in vanilla compared to fury, but had good offtanking(before dual speccing)


While I don't want to turn this into a nostalgia thread about the past, I think you are a little off on your memory.

In vanilla, neither warrior spec was good for dps (since every warrior was suppose to tank lawl), but towards the end of vanilla in naxx, real dps warriors were exclusively fury (plenty of silly warriors running around with their two hands thinking they were badass back then, but back then, everyone blew), with fury doing some insane dps parses on patchwerk (i'm sure there's a video of awesome 1k dps fury warriors back then).

In tbc, arms again suffered for the most part. When arp came around, every melee spec benefited heavily from capping it (especially DPS warriors). Towards the end of the expansion in Sunwell, you always had *1* arms warriors in your raid ideally, because they brought the physical damage increase debuff, not because arms was amazing dps. Arms was bottom middle of the pack at that point along with spriests (which you brought more than 1 of because they had that one thing that restores a ton of mana to their party, forgot what it's called), which is really why you only brought one, while again, fury did extremely well in near BiS, though fury warriors were kind of still rare at that point.

In WotLK, arms started out pretty strong, but slowly fell behind in ulduar/togc to the poor scaling it had compared to TG fury, which was introduced in the expansion (and might I add, was so insane at the time that they had to nerf it multiple times to get it in line with other dps specs). Fury became even more insane with shadowmourne in ICC, where fury warriors reigned at the top for the most part with arms nowhere to be seen any longer at that point. I know this because I was a regular arms player from the start up to ICC (and a WoL top parser for it I might add), where I had to go fury for ICC heroic progression after getting my guild's shadowmourne.

In cata, arms was a good dps spec again at the start of the expansion. However, again, due to poor scaling, fell behind in BiS t11 gear and in firelands gear. Come DS however, it got a couple of huge buffs, and also the weapon that drops from deathwing (Gurthalak) had an incredible proc that arm's mastery heavily benefited from. That is when arms became, for once, better than fury.
Edited by Angelic on 12/1/2012 1:13 PM PST
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
In vanilla, neither warrior spec was good for dps


Not quite. Fury was good pretty much all of Vanilla outside MC. Even as early as BWL it was starting to pull away from other DPS specs.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15890
New simcraft is out, and arms is supposedly dead last.

http://simulationcraft.org/510/Raid_T14H.html

I don't want to go fury =(


I wouldn't be. Outside of gear upgrades, nothing's been nerfed with the spec in terms of damage potential. If you were playing Arms before, you'll be fine playing it still.

Also I would be careful of that simulation of Arms. DPS shouldn't go down with more gear upgrades and no changes to the spec. I would have someone take a look at that, cause that doesn't seem right.

The Max DPS in 5.0.5 was 110,509. For 5.1 Its' 109,174 for the spec.

Something doesn't seem right.
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90 Dwarf Priest
17755
12/01/2012 01:42 PMPosted by Aureus
In vanilla, neither warrior spec was good for dps


Not quite. Fury was good pretty much all of Vanilla outside MC. Even as early as BWL it was starting to pull away from other DPS specs.


I really don't think so. In BWL was when we got a crappy version of recount. It was tough to see what specs were dominating and what wasn't. Not to mention that everyone sucked. Everyone. I just didn't think it ideal to judge it based on that period. I feel like Naxx 40 is a fairer starting judge point because of patchwerk (that was the first fight that forced people to maximize their dps outputs, not just pick random specs and do whatever they wanted) and recount being upgraded to show actual numbers, though fury was strong there anyway so your point would still stand. There's a reason his name is the norm for parsing fights and simulations.
Edited by Angelic on 12/1/2012 3:19 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Warrior
11640
ive been playing arms since vanilla. its been a rough road, its true, but im never going to stop.

as far as simulations, i simply dont trust them. they dont seem to correlate closely with reality. if you want to see how you are doing, run recount. im not usually top any more outside of MSV, but im almost never lower than #4 unless radically outgeared. so while i have always disliked the fact that arms is the least favourite warrior spec, and it is much more difficult to get reasonable performance out of the class, it is still possible.

and furthermore, its a ton of fun to play. at the end of the day, thats what we're all here for.
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90 Orc Warrior
5940
Do you think if we QQ'd and whined as much as fire mages did that we would get buffs of some sort? I mean, their other specs are all overall better and their worst is still a few places above arms, we seem to have a better argument.
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22 Gnome Warrior
80
Simcraft is good for in-spec comparisons of rotation changes and gear. Computation of absolute DPS values is badly flawed for many specs.

Arms is fine.
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90 Human Warrior
12950
Simcraft is good for in-spec comparisons of rotation changes and gear. Computation of absolute DPS values is badly flawed for many specs.

Arms is fine.


Arms is fine, maybe even optimal, at low gear levels. The problem is that it scales worse with every possible attribute than Fury does, except maybe weapon damage. Next tier, when the endgame gear now is baseline minimum gear level, Arms will be so far behind it's not funny.

I want to see changes to arms that improve its scaling, rather than the usual "Here have some more weapon% damage".
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