Topic Arms PvE, should I be worried?
Hmmm, I think it would be premature to discuss the extent of what the difference between arms and fury really looks like long term - the current tier set bonuses would appear to favor fury's mechanics over arms, and any apparent lack of choice may simply be a function of that. If next tier said something like "your heroic strike now ignores armor" or something silly like that which might have an arms bias, it might be a different story.
Regarding scaling, having arguably the highest scaling on weapon damage of any DPS spec wouldn't be so terrible in lieu of poor secondary stat scaling (particularly haste and mastery) if best in slot weapons were obtainable more early on - it makes little sense to balance a spec for content around an item thats only obtainable after you have already cleared the content. I know the devs want weapons to feel like a powerful reward, but many times it feels like a hinderance towards personal progression with respect to arms, and subjectively one might argue that hitting a 4-pc bonus from a final boss drop, or getting a cool trinket, or mounts, whatever, might feel every bit as rewarding. I mean, if a 3.8 speed hit/crit 2her dropped on a first boss, its not like some red flag pops up and says "Ok, you can stop raiding now".
I don't really agree with this. Crit is far and away the best stat for Arms and Fury, so in theory better recklessness uptime would be equally good for both classes. The problem is that despite it being the best stat for both of us, Fury gets nearly twice as much scaling from crit.
But this is true no matter what the bonus is? HS Ignores Armor? Well we have better CS uptime, so they get more benefit from it. I can't think of any bonuses that would favor Arms over fury except something really lame like boosting base weapon damage.
Well the biggest problem would be that making a BiS weapon drop that early means balancing all of the rest of the content around the DPS from that weapon. Which means guilds with poor drop rates on weapons, or who drop weapons frequently not suited for their raid, will have much more trouble.
The other problem is that Weapon DPS simply isn't as plentiful as other stats. In HT14 gear, you have 19,000 AP, and 21,700 total rating worth of secondaries on your gear. By comparison, the BIS axe has ~5050 weapon DPS. For that to balance out, your scaling with weapon damage needs to be MUCH higher than the other specs/classes to balance out.
I just ran the T14H BiS profiles through Simcraft, this is what I get:
Weapon DPS: 9.99
(side note: The profile has Arms using Mastery over haste, yet the sim shows Haste as more valuable. Thought that was interesting)
Weapon DPS: 7.67
Offhand DPS: 4.03
Seriously, look at those two side by side and tell me there isn't a major problem. Yes, Arms gets about 15% more scaling from weapon dps. But fury gets 50% more from strength, gets more from AP, more than doubles Arms' crit scaling, more than doubles Mastery scaling, and even beats haste scaling.
I could probably go through other classes/specs, but I would expect to see most numbers much closer to Fury than Arms. They -need- to fix this fundamental scaling issue if they ever want to see the spec sustainable for PVE play.
Also want to add, that this is just single target that Secondwind is speaking of.
When it comes to spells and abilities on other things, Fury pulls out far ahead when using things like Bladestorm, Whilrwind, and any attack power based spell (Execute, Dragon's Roar), simply due to the fact that Fury hits with two weapons as opposed to one. (Attack Power, because its impossible for Arms to have equal Strength to fury as long as dual wielding is a factor).
Curoar is correct. Bladestorm/Whirlwind both get offhand damage added, so for TG Fury it is a significant increase in AoE DPS. On the other hand Execute/Dragon's Roar either have more attack power (TG for higher strength), or more damage (SMF for flat 20% bonus, which is where the increased AP/Str scaling for Fury comes from in the numbers I posted earlier). In addition, both AoE and Execute Phase rely on rage more than single target rotations do, and Fury has a much higher base rage generation (during single target this isn't an issue because Arms has more free abilities, and its rage dumps are more efficient in general. However in execute phase Fury's extra rage gen means more executes so more damage. In AoE that extra rage gen is more whirlwinds, so more damage. And this is on top of the advantages that Fury already enjoys in terms of damage per attack)
Arms does have a few tools to try to even things out (Blood and Thunder is actually really good, Sweeping Strikes is probably one of the best two target cleave abilities in the game), but for each pro that Fury has, Arms should have its own advantage in another area. For example Fury is better at raw aoe, Arms is better at cleaving. That's fine, since while Arms' AoE isn't the best it is definitely passable.
But honestly the biggest issue is the core scaling problems. Fix the scaling, and everything else should fall into line. The toolkits of the specs are both solid, what is lacking in Arms is that it falls further behind the higher the gear levels get.
Edited by Angelic on 12/6/12 1:58 AM (PST)
I really do think it's sad that arms with sweeping strike can't compare to fury's cleave since the upkeep cost is high and our rage generation is nowhere near what fury is. Not to mention sweeping strikes only does 50% of the damage. We really are behind in every aspect at this point, and it's only going to get worse as we really only scale off strength, weapon damage, and crit (and even then our crit scaling isn't as good as either of the fury specs).
Fury's rotation only gets more solid as they get more crit, whereas arms, regardless of gear, is still prone to RNG TfB and sudden death procs. Since our scaling with haste is so poor too, rage generation never gets all that much better (though it does get better as we crit more often with MS and CS). Bloodlust/Heroism continues to be a horrible raid cooldown for us (and i'm pretty sure we might be the only spec that get absolutely horrible benefit from it).
One of the big things about warrior DPS right now is our execute phase as well. Due to our rage generation being so poor, we also end up doing poorly there compared to the other two specs. Arms should honestly have a harder hitting execute (I know arms executes hits harder, but it's really not enough) compared to the other two fury specs, but somehow they thought it a good idea to give SMF a 20% damage bonus to their execute on top of the best rage generation as well.
edit: sorry just read some of the posts above mine and you guys summarized all my points better. Really, it seems the problem is pretty obvious, and I hope Blizzard doesn't put us on the backburner for too long.