Suggestion: LFR loot

90 Human Paladin
12670
I have been against LFR giving loot to raiders from the start, you want to give non raiders more progression? Fine, but if you give it as an option to raiders we have to do it or else we are hurting our raid, and it is no fun. The official stance on this has been "if you are a raider you only need to run it for a few weeks then you're done." I'll tell you why that is flat out not true.

When LFR first came out we were in heroic firelands gear so the only thing we needed from LFR was set bonuses and trinkets, alright that's a pain but not enough to make me complain. This tier's LFR we go into with blues so we need everything, alright fine, more of a pain but still not enough to make me complain. But now with the new loot system, and the fact that we can't see what bosses are down, it's too much. I can only get gear for the spec that I'm in (which is dumb I am willing to fill the much needed healer role if I can get dps gear for it but I am forced to queue dps.) Some bosses I don't need any mainspec gear from and some I do, so I queue and depending on which boss it put me in at I either take the queue because it's one I need loot for as that spec, or if it's not then I will re queue as the right spec or if I've already gotten that boss I will take the queue anyways and kill it again because the next boss I do need as that spec AND I won't lock myself out of this one's loot because I already killed it in a different run. Now that you've made it so I can't see which bosses are down, I will be forced to take lots of deserter debuffs if I want to make sure I'm in the right spec for each boss.

I would be ok with all of this as ridiculously annoying and unfun as it is if it were true that as a raider I didn't really need it, but my guild progresses really slow, and because of that I will be stuck running LFR for months until I have all the gear to make it obsolete. If I don't spend hours and hours and hours gaming which boss I get, taking deserter, and dealing with moronic wipe fests, I am hurting my raid. This is stupid and unfun, the system was tolerable up until now but the snowballing of unintended consequences to this system is too much.

Before anyone points out that my progression isn't hardcore enough to merit such min maxing, that's an excellent point, but it's irrelevant, because my point of "if I don't do it I am hurting my raid" stands whether it will actually help my progression or not. I can't make my raid better, I can only min max myself and bring as much to the table as I can to make up for the shortcomings of the raid as a whole in skill and time invested, and as it stands in order to do that I have to spend a ridiculous amount of time in what was supposed to be "a way for non raiders to experience raiding and have more progression beyond heroics."

Proposed solutions:

A - The one I prefer is to just make it share loot with normal and heroic, so that if we raid we truly do not need LFR loot drops from bosses we are able to kill instead of being wrongly told we don't need them.

B - When a boss dies allow you to pick which spec (out of all of them, you shouldn't have to have it as one of your current specs to get loot for it if you play all three specs, you didn't with the old loot system.) you want loot for, although this will still make us run LFR, it gets rid of the annoying mickeymouse spec runaround and lets me just queue everything as healer, fixes the issue that the new loot system created, and gets the mindnumbing over with much much faster.
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if you give LFR as an option to raiders we have to do it or else we are hurting our raid
if you can kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss without LFR gear, then you don't NEED LFR gear to kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss, you just WANT LFR gear to kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss...

if you can't kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss without LFR gear, then you NEED LFR gear to kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss, and making sure you CANT get LFR gear would mean you would never be able to kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss...
Edited by Zaxan on 12/1/2012 1:32 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
12/01/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Zaxan
if you can kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss without LFR gear, then you don't NEED LFR gear to kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss, you just WANT LFR gear to kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss...


Nobody in their right god damn mind is wiping at 1% because they don't do LFR, and saying "It's ok, I'm fine with that"

And guilds get recruits based on progression, playing in anything above the "We can't kill elegon" level, you're doing LFR, or you're that carried piece of crap everyone hates.

12/01/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Zaxan
if you can't kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss without LFR gear, then you NEED LFR gear to kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss, and making sure you CANT get LFR gear would mean you would never be able to kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss...


Kin Raiders, world first DS clear, they ran over 25 lfrs to gear up, and got a world first based on an LFR geared raid.

They couldn't kill that boss without LFR gear, so by your logic, they can't kill heroic raid bosses.
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12/01/2012 01:37 PMPosted by Postonforums
if you can kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss without LFR gear, then you don't NEED LFR gear to kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss, you just WANT LFR gear to kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss...


Nobody in their right god damn mind is wiping at 1% because they don't do LFR, and saying "It's ok, I'm fine with that"

And guilds get recruits based on progression, playing in anything above the "We can't kill elegon" level, you're doing LFR, or you're that carried piece of crap everyone hates.

if you can't kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss without LFR gear, then you NEED LFR gear to kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss, and making sure you CANT get LFR gear would mean you would never be able to kill a Normal/Heroic mode raid boss...


Kin Raiders, world first DS clear, they ran over 25 lfrs to gear up, and got a world first based on an LFR geared raid.

They couldn't kill that boss without LFR gear, so by your logic, they can't kill heroic raid bosses.
I did not understand anything you posted. If you would like to help me understand, I would be grateful. If you would not like to help me understand, I will just forgot your post. Thanks!
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90 Tauren Druid
Woe
18930
12/01/2012 01:41 PMPosted by Zaxan


Nobody in their right god damn mind is wiping at 1% because they don't do LFR, and saying "It's ok, I'm fine with that"

And guilds get recruits based on progression, playing in anything above the "We can't kill elegon" level, you're doing LFR, or you're that carried piece of crap everyone hates.



Kin Raiders, world first DS clear, they ran over 25 lfrs to gear up, and got a world first based on an LFR geared raid.

They couldn't kill that boss without LFR gear, so by your logic, they can't kill heroic raid bosses.
I did not understand anything you posted. If you would like to help me understand, I would be grateful. If you would not like to help me understand, I will just forgot your post. Thanks!


If you can't understand that post, you have a deep comprehension problem.
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90 Human Priest
18160
Zaxan, I'm not sure how to say this except that...you're wrong.

As time goes by, people get more Valor gear (and now Valor upgrading), Conquest gear, and gear from whatever bosses they can already do.

Even if they're not able to meet the DPS check on, say, Garalon now, in a few weeks of getting more gear they will. And this gear is time gated, you cannot get Valor/Conquest/Raid gear any faster than the weekly reset.

So people run LFR to try to get the gear their raid needs to down the boss so they aren't wiping for another week or two at 5% or 10% or whatever.

I was keenly aware of this when my guild was wiping Heroic Gara'jal at <5% with zero epic weapons in the raid.
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
Gear makes the boss easier. LFR speeds up the gearing process and helps fix bad RNG. Therefore, raiders must run LFR.

Until raids become like CM's (never gonna happen), or LFR shares a lockout with norm/heroic (this really needs to happen), you will always have raiders in LFR.
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Zaxan, I'm not sure how to say this except that...you're wrong.

As time goes by, people get more Valor gear (and now Valor upgrading), Conquest gear, and gear from whatever bosses they can already do.

Even if they're not able to meet the DPS check on, say, Garalon now, in a few weeks of getting more gear they will. And this gear is time gated, you cannot get Valor/Conquest/Raid gear any faster than the weekly reset.

So people run LFR to try to get the gear their raid needs to down the boss so they aren't wiping for another week or two at 5% or 10% or whatever.

I was keenly aware of this when my guild was wiping Heroic Gara'jal at <5% with zero epic weapons in the raid.
I know all of this - that was my point - you have the option to WAIT for gear to drop while raiding Normal/Heroic modes, you have the option to WAIT till you have the points to buy gear, and you have the option to raid LFR and WAIT for a drop from there...

These are all OPTIONS - you do not HAVE to run LFR, you can just use the other two options, or you can just use one option (wait for gear from Normal/Heroic modes)...

the options are there for players who ENJOY them - if you do not enjoy an option, dont use it

if a guild leader is REQUIRING players to do an option they don't enjoy, then it seems to me they are in the wrong guild...

you join a guild because you ENJOY what the guild wants to do...
Edited by Zaxan on 12/1/2012 1:59 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
12670
12/01/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Zaxan
making sure you CANT get LFR gear


Having them share loot lockout doesn't do that, it means that any boss I can kill but don't have loot from I don't have to do on LFR to get gear for the next boss and that any boss I can't kill I can still do on LFR.

Really the only downside I see to this is that raiders will stop doing LFR and carrying non raiders but if that is an issue then that is a problem with the tuning, it shouldn't be tuned with the expectation that a certain % of the group will carry the rest.
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12/01/2012 02:01 PMPosted by Mistabings
Really the only downside I see to this is that raiders will stop doing LFR and carrying non raiders but if that is an issue then that is a problem with the tuning, it shouldn't be tuned with the expectation that a certain % of the group will carry the rest.
There is also the "players no longer have the option to raid with their friends and family that can only raid LFR", which would be a MUCH larger problem in a social MMO such as WoW.

Players WANT to be able to play with their friends and family in ALL content of WoW and LFR has opened up the raiding content of WoW for everyone to do just that.
Edited by Zaxan on 12/1/2012 2:06 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
I made a thread a few months back supporting this. Loot lockout would be perfect. Not actual lockout; especially now that we have elder charms. But standard loot lockout would go a long way I think.

Edit: To clarify - you can still q for and do lfr. This shouldn't be hard - after all, lfr loot locks against itself already. I ran lfr toes 13 times the first week it was out, but was only eligible for normal loot the first time.

The normal/heroic/lfr loot lockout should be the exact same. Can still play with friends, can still spend elder charms on a boss if you want.

It works.

Edit 2: Old discussion: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6412102733?page=1
Edited by Ghatok on 12/1/2012 2:07 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
12670
12/01/2012 01:54 PMPosted by Zaxan
These are all OPTIONS - you do not HAVE to run LFR


if I don't do it I am hurting my raid


If I want to help my raid to the best of my ability I do HAVE to run it, which is the issue. I hate every minute of it but I hate not bringing the best I have available to bring to the table more.
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12/01/2012 02:05 PMPosted by Mistabings
If I want to help my raid to the best of my ability I do HAVE to run it, which is the issue.
If you WANT to help your raid to the best of your ability, then you already WANT to do whatever it takes to do that...so I don't see any issue.
Edited by Zaxan on 12/1/2012 2:08 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
12670
There is also the "players no longer have the option to raid with their friends and family that can only raid LFR", which would be a MUCH larger problem in a social MMO such as WoW.

Players WANT to be able to play with their friends and family in ALL content of WoW and LFR has opened up the raiding content of WoW for everyone to do just that.


I never once said lockout, I said make them share loot, nothing is stopping you from running it with those people without getting loot.
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12/01/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Mistabings
nothing is stopping you from running it with those people without getting loot.
Just like nothing is stopping you from not running LFR as it currently is.
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
12/01/2012 01:54 PMPosted by Zaxan
you have the option to WAIT for gear


This is not an option, stop being intentionally dense.

Choice is a funny thing "Do you want free cake, or you cut your hand off? YOU HAVE OPTIONS!"

If you WANT to help your raid to the best of your ability, then you already WANT to do whatever it takes to do that...so I don't see any issue.


Every single "casual" gearing path added to this game, casuals ignore and complain that it's not a viable option, and raiders get stuck doing enourmous rep grinds, lfr, and all the other time consuming but simple things, because raids are balanced on having those ""options"".
Edited by Postonforums on 12/1/2012 2:15 PM PST
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you have the option to WAIT for gear


This is not an option, stop being intentionally dense.
Yes it is, it was an option BEFORE lfr was implemented, it was the ONLY option before points/badges were implemented.
Edited by Zaxan on 12/4/2012 2:40 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
12/01/2012 02:10 PMPosted by Zaxan
Yes it is, it was an option BEFORE lfr was implemented, it was the ONLY option before points/seals were implemented.


Yes, and now lfr is here, and recruitment, progression and everything is based around it. Part of the reason you see bosses die so much faster and tiers being cleared so fast is the amount of "OPTIONS" that are required to play now.

You're seriously going to argue "well you didn't do LFR before it existed"
Edited by Postonforums on 12/1/2012 2:12 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
Ah well. Potentially good discussion being taken over by a troll. Shame. Grats, Zaxan.
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12/01/2012 02:12 PMPosted by Postonforums
you see bosses die so much faster and tiers being cleared so fast is the amount of "OPTIONS" that are required to play now.
Just because you are too impatient to wait for gear to drop from Normal/Heroic raiding doesn't mean that point gear or LFR gear is required.

You CAN wait for gear to drop from Normal/Heroic raiding. You just don't WANT to.
Edited by Zaxan on 12/1/2012 2:16 PM PST
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