So how would you all rank the difficulty?

96 Human Paladin
13345
12/11/2012 06:59 PMPosted by Slashlove
And your evidence for this is? You don't seem to have any.


We're now getting into requesting proof of a negative


Generally, when someone asserts something is "never, ever true", we can expect some evidence to back up that assertion.

If he had merely said "you haven't presented evidence for your claim, so we shouldn't put much weight on it", he wouldn't have to present proof. But he went far beyond that, vehemently asserting the negation.
Edited by Osmeric on 12/11/2012 8:16 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Generally, when someone asserts something is "never, ever true", we can expect some evidence to back up that assertion.


No, not really. That's the entire reason it still remains an issue in actual discussions of meaning and leads to a logical fallacy - reality doesn't work that way.
Edited by Slashlove on 12/11/2012 8:25 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warlock
11935
I personally feel like there were a few inconvenient RNG factors that were more annoying than difficult. There's a problem when a wipe is called because of a bad combo, etc.
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90 Human Paladin
16345
12/11/2012 03:27 PMPosted by Slashlove
The best someone can possibly imply (and I think they'd be wrong) is that the 96% represents the portion of people who've pulled Stone Guard, not the portion of people who did successfully kill Morchok.


Thanks for providing data that shows 98% of raid groups can defeat Stone Guard. At least some of the percentage that have not defeated him are merely DS raiding guilds that have not begun raiding in MoP that are tracked on WoW Progress. So if your guild cannot defeat Stone Guard it's one of the worst raiding guilds in the entire game, at the bottom 1% or 0.5% of players. Guess what the problem is? Hint: it isn't the boss.

WoW Progress' percentage numbers also include guilds that actively raided in DS but have not yet pulled a T14 boss, so no, it's quite certainly tracking guilds regardless of their kills unless they are newly formed.


^--- Statements like these are what I tried to refute; it implied 9x% of the guilds that raided DS successfully killed SG; it's simply false. 32/54 is more close to it.

If I have to put on my tin-foil hat I'd say guilds tracked in wowprogress are guilds that has downed a boss in T14. That boss doesn't necessarily have to be SG; I don't know how exactly wowprogress tracked these guilds as downed, say, Feng, but doesn't downed SG, but these data exist: ie: http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/windrunner/Under+oath/rating.tier14_10 . My tinfoil hat tells me that data like these are what skewed the SG kill to not be 100%.

Still, there is no good number to suggest how many guilds are "stuck" on SG. Every other encounters we can get a good feel by assuming guilds that beated the previous encounter is attempting the next one. In SG's case there's no "previous encounter"... The best I can come up with was "guilds that raided in T13", assuming the new guilds formed and guilds that died balanced out (admitting, a HUGE assumption)...

Never say the numbers are perfect, but feel free to make a better estimate than that.

12/11/2012 03:27 PMPosted by Slashlove
(like people going more casual given that the environment now is more casual-friendly from these organised guilds and choosing not to raid).


That's actually a very valid explanation on the direction Blizzard is taking; putting out casual contents to keep the lower end guilds happy even though they can't raid... In fact, I just recently convinced a friend (ex-raider who would not have time commitment now to do organized raid) to come back to WoW... and the reason I gave him was that he doesn't have to raid to have fun.
Edited by Emmey on 12/11/2012 8:49 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
^--- Statements like these are what I tried to refute; it implied 9x% of the guilds that raided DS successfully killed SG; it's simply false. 32/54 is more close to it.


While I would agree that the former is a flawed analysis (looking at WoWProgress on Day One and seeing 100% on SG proves otherwise), the latter number is also incredibly flawed. In fact, it's claiming that it would be 32/54 that tries to imply that DS numbers are relevant to now numbers - which cannot possibly be true unless you assume that every single guild that killed Morchok at any point is throwing themselves at SG.

Still, there is no good number to suggest how many guilds are "stuck" on SG. Every other encounters we can get a good feel by assuming guilds that beated the previous encounter is attempting the next one.


Technically, Blizzard does have access to this data, and while it's still under flesh, we do know that wipes on a boss can be tracked by WoWProgress in some fashion.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
17795
They need to put an achievement for entering a raid and killing the first trash pack, then we could get even better BS statistics that are completely wrong.
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90 Human Paladin
16345
12/11/2012 09:17 PMPosted by Slashlove
In fact, it's claiming that it would be 32/54 that tries to imply that DS numbers are relevant to now numbers - which cannot possibly be true unless you assume that every single guild that killed Morchok at any point is throwing themselves at SG.


Those 50k-ish guilds that raided in T13 is likely that they will, at some point, try T14 out as a guild. Obviously it doesn't mean every single one of them attempted SG, but claiming number of guilds that raided in T13 has no relevance with number of guilds attempted SG is like claiming number of 6/7H guilds is not relevant to number of guilds attempting H-Rag, just because not every 6/7H guilds are attempting H-Rag. Two numbers don't need to be perfectly correlated to have some correlation.
Edited by Emmey on 12/11/2012 11:53 PM PST
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
17795
12/11/2012 11:49 PMPosted by Emmey
Those 50k-ish guilds were guilds that raided in T13 is likely that they will, at some point, try T14 out as a guild. Obviously it doesn't mean every single one of them attempted SG, but claiming number of guilds that raided in T13 has no relevance with number of guilds attempted SG is like claiming number of 6/7H guilds is not relevant to number of guilds attempting H-Rag, just because not every 6/7H guilds are attempting H-Rag. Two numbers don't need to be perfectly correlated to have some correlation.


Using the same logic, we can say DS failed, as it didn't have 6x the participation as MGV does now, considering DS was out for 6x as long.
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90 Human Paladin
16345
12/11/2012 11:52 PMPosted by Postonforums
Using the same logic, we can say DS failed, as it didn't have 6x the participation as MGV does now, considering DS was out for 6x as long.

Incorrect
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Those 50k-ish guilds that raided in T13 is likely that they will, at some point, try T14 out as a guild. Obviously it doesn't mean every single one of them attempted SG, but claiming number of guilds that raided in T13 has no relevance with number of guilds attempted SG is like claiming number of 6/7H guilds is not relevant to number of guilds attempting H-Rag, just because not every 6/7H guilds are attempting H-Rag. Two numbers don't need to be perfectly correlated to have some correlation.


Well actually when you bring it up, the number of guilds that were 6/7H wasn't actually indiciative of the number of guilds attempting Rag, in a much more pronounced fashion, so we've established common ground that shows the same phenomenon in two different areas.

Two numbers don't need to be perfectly correlated to have some correlation.


The operating term is "Correlation does not imply causation". You need to establish the existence of the guilds "stuck on Stone Guards" to make any claims about numbers relating to such guilds.

Bringing in the numbers from DS requires you to first establish a prior claim that the guilds that will be trying to kill Stone Guards relates to the number of guilds that killed Morchok (even though that can never actually be true, because some of those guilds don't even exist now). If you don't do that first, you cannot sit there and claim that 32/54 is "more likely'.

Your very first assumption - "Those 50k-ish guilds that raided in T13 is likely that they will, at some point, try T14 out as a guild. ". This, you need to actually back up instead of handwave it in that it's likely. Especially in a new expansion that has entirely new guilds ranking up.
Edited by Slashlove on 12/12/2012 12:23 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
2635
Sarosh makes alot of valid points. As usual the one camp is the Learn2play camp, where everything is always dandy and most players are bad. Then there is the more reasonable crowd who admit that raiding has is negatives in design.

The real basis of MOP raiding is movement. Its entirely centered around moving out of crap on the ground, SG is a good example. It demands a particular skill, multi tasking. period. Thats it. Not everyone is good at that. ADD players will excel at it.

There are many ways to create a challenge, managing CC. CC is GONE from the game entirely. Managing differnt types of debuffs, think Chromaggus. Managing resistances and vulnerablities, think MC and BWL.

Now, for some strange reason, the entire game is based on moving your character around, in SG, while staying close to someone and doing something. Its 3 things to think about, sometimes more as a healer, its a big cognitive load.

So what I am saying is this raid setup puts a high cognitive load on players, makes them think about alot of things at once. But thinking is too generous a term. It doesnt take any thought to raid, just alot of experience at super mario type movement games. Its an annoying mechanic that is repeated throughout MOP..what Sarth and others who go with his thinking ar saying is that its just not a fun mechanic. And it does not favor any kind of thinking, it favors spacial awareness.

The incredible arrogance exhibited by people who happen to be good at super mario jumping games, to the extent that they say that everyone else is bad, now thats the real story. How guilds now expect to down a boss with 6 attempts per nite and then give up and bench half the team, thats the real story. The raids are mindless, just focussed on tedious skill sets. If yoiu dont have these, guilds dont commit enough time for anyone to learn it. I have done SG 3 times. Already they are quitting and !@#$%ing when we dont one shot it. Uhhh...it takes more than 6 attempts per night to master this stuff...
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100 Troll Hunter
11905
Lol@ the people thinking SG normal takes any sort of thought process outside of tanks. Seriously, the tanks are the ONLY ones who need to be semi-ish decent/competent, quit making excuses for your bad play/crappy awareness.

12/12/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Jeanharlowe
I have done SG 3 times. Already they are quitting and !@#$%ing when we dont one shot it. Uhhh...it takes more than 6 attempts per night to master this stuff...


Purely a guild/members problem, nothing to do with the boss itself.
Edited by Naumu on 12/12/2012 2:24 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
16345
12/12/2012 12:15 AMPosted by Slashlove
The operating term is "Correlation does not imply causation". You need to establish the existence of the guilds "stuck on Stone Guards" to make any claims about numbers relating to such guilds.


None of my statement mentioned anything about "causation". My statement was that there exist correlation between the two numbers, and not about "why" (causation)... ie: "a guild that raided T13 is more likely to attempt a boss at T14," not "a guild that raided T13 causes the guild to attempt a boss at T14."

12/12/2012 12:15 AMPosted by Slashlove
Your very first assumption - "Those 50k-ish guilds that raided in T13 is likely that they will, at some point, try T14 out as a guild. ". This, you need to actually back up instead of handwave it in that it's likely. Especially in a new expansion that has entirely new guilds ranking up.


I doubt it's possible to verify consider data for guilds attempting a boss is not publicly available... It may be possible to verify an alternate but similar statement "Guilds that raided in T13 is likely that they will down a boss in T14" because data for "down a boss in T14" is actually available, and may possibly imply the first statement (guilds that down a boss in T14 is basically a subset of guilds that raid in T14)... Meh, too much work for an internet argument...
Edited by Emmey on 12/12/2012 3:42 AM PST
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
17795
12/12/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Jeanharlowe
Sarosh makes alot of valid points. As usual the one camp is the Learn2play camp, where everything is always dandy and most players are bad. Then there is the more reasonable crowd who admit that raiding has is negatives in design.


"Learn2play", also known as "If you try to become better, you will", you can spin it either way, fact is, we're talking about the first normal boss.

12/12/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Jeanharlowe
The real basis of MOP raiding is movement. Its entirely centered around moving out of crap on the ground, SG is a good example. It demands a particular skill, multi tasking. period. Thats it. Not everyone is good at that. ADD players will excel at it.


Stoneguards is mainly the tank aspect, the moving part is less accented, although still important. I think you're confusing ADD and OCD, but anyways, dodging stuff on stoneguards isn't much harder than not running face first into a goomba in mario.

12/12/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Jeanharlowe
There are many ways to create a challenge, managing CC. CC is GONE from the game entirely. Managing differnt types of debuffs, think Chromaggus. Managing resistances and vulnerablities, think MC and BWL.


CC? you mean Windlord? a fight completely based around CC and add management?
Managing different debuffs? you mean spamming decursive. Closest examples of debuff management is Garalon, you know, the fight Sarosha cried about?

12/12/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Jeanharlowe
So what I am saying is this raid setup puts a high cognitive load on players, makes them think about alot of things at once. But thinking is too generous a term. It doesnt take any thought to raid, just alot of experience at super mario type movement games. Its an annoying mechanic that is repeated throughout MOP..what Sarth and others who go with his thinking ar saying is that its just not a fun mechanic. And it does not favor any kind of thinking, it favors spacial awareness.


Go watch I wanna be the boshy for 5 minutes, then tell me wow is hard.

12/12/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Jeanharlowe
what Sarth and others who go with his thinking ar saying is that its just not a fun mechanic.


Specifically with this, different fights are fun for different folks. Stoneguards was fun to tank, and I liked the concept behind the heroic mechanic, irrelevant to this discussion, however I don't find Gara'jal fun, where many people do. I actually tend to like many of the fights people say aren't fun, like Spirit Kings.

12/12/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Jeanharlowe
The incredible arrogance exhibited by people who happen to be good at super mario jumping games, to the extent that they say that everyone else is bad, now thats the real story. How guilds now expect to down a boss with 6 attempts per nite and then give up and bench half the team, thats the real story. The raids are mindless, just focussed on tedious skill sets. If yoiu dont have these, guilds dont commit enough time for anyone to learn it. I have done SG 3 times. Already they are quitting and !@#$%ing when we dont one shot it. Uhhh...it takes more than 6 attempts per night to master this stuff...


Kind of funny, most the people you're talking about are offering advice, ways to improve, asking for logs and such, where as Sarosha quite clearly says "EVERYONE SUCKS AND IM ABOVE AVERAGE", and pretty much takes a giant dump over the entire casual playerbase to try and make himself seem better, oftentimes confusing the terms casual and bad a dozen times (I love the part where he said that we drove his best friend Darkerdesign out, and we "transformed" Ghatok into one of us.... Because, you know, somehow he his wife and kids and such stopped existing and he's now a no life basement dweller who raids........ 3 hours a week and is past Sarosha's 12 hours a week schedule).

I help people who can be helped, heck Sarosha is a much better player now than he was a year ago, even though it took mailing him a belt buckle to put one on, he's definitely been slowly "transformed" towards being a more efficient casual, if he didn't meet opposition on the forums, he would still be "I don't need to dodge attacks on will, that's the DPS' job" and "Why would I need enchants? they're going to nerf the raid" (Both are actual quotes)

As long as you accept help on these boards, you'll get sincere advice, as long as you use the word nerf more than a foam ball company, you'll get talked down to, as this forum is here for LFR loot QQ, Scenarios suck and are pointless discussion, and once in a while, sincere advice on how to defeat a boss.
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100 Human Rogue
11210
12/11/2012 11:49 PMPosted by Emmey
Those 50k-ish guilds that raided in T13 is likely that they will, at some point, try T14 out as a guild. Obviously it doesn't mean every single one of them attempted SG, but claiming number of guilds that raided in T13 has no relevance with number of guilds attempted SG is like claiming number of 6/7H guilds is not relevant to number of guilds attempting H-Rag, just because not every 6/7H guilds are attempting H-Rag. Two numbers don't need to be perfectly correlated to have some correlation.


Many of those 50k guilds no longer exist as they died sometime during month X of nerfed dragon soul. If you think SG is a "wall" you are simply not being realistic. No, there are not 18,000 guilds out there who are interested in raiding but haven't killed SG yet. Yes, there are some but there are not many.

None of my statement mentioned anything about "causation". My statement was that there exist correlation between the two numbers, and not about "why" (causation)... ie: "a guild that raided T13 is more likely to attempt a boss at T14," not "a guild that raided T13 causes the guild to attempt a boss at T14."


The majority of DS raiding guilds that don't have SG down no longer exist/raid. Hell half of those DS kills probably weren't even full guilds, lets not forget 8/8H was a 3 hour pug experience.

12/12/2012 04:58 AMPosted by Postonforums
As long as you accept help on these boards, you'll get sincere advice, as long as you use the word nerf more than a foam ball company, you'll get talked down to, as this forum is here for LFR loot QQ, Scenarios suck and are pointless discussion, and once in a while, sincere advice on how to defeat a boss.


Exactly. Call us what you want, call yourselves what you want but realize at the end of the day the real difference is we realize the problem is with the players and not with the game itself. We also realize we cannot change the game, only ourselves, so instead of simply complaining we attempt to fix things WE (not blizzard, not a 35% zone wide debuff, we ourselves) can actually fix. I'm not sure why some people here think complaining about things they cannot change is somehow better advice than changing something within their power to achieve the same goal.
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90 Worgen Druid
17805
There are many ways to create a challenge, managing CC. CC is GONE from the game entirely. Managing differnt types of debuffs, think Chromaggus. Managing resistances and vulnerablities, think MC and BWL.

Now, for some strange reason, the entire game is based on moving your character around, in SG, while staying close to someone and doing something. Its 3 things to think about, sometimes more as a healer, its a big cognitive load.

Bunch of things I could touch on with that, but I'll keep it realtively simple: CC is still involved in many boss fights, I do not want to farm resist gear, and buff/debuff management is most definitely still around.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
12/12/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Jeanharlowe
Sarosh makes alot of valid points. As usual the one camp is the Learn2play camp, where everything is always dandy and most players are bad. Then there is the more reasonable crowd who admit that raiding has is negatives in design.


Yes, to raid you need to know how to play. Standard practice for games with difficulty settings. Can't beat Halo on Legendary if you don't know what the hell you're doing.

Our problems with Sarosha stem from the practice of him not wiling to do much of anything to improve.

12/12/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Jeanharlowe
The real basis of MOP raiding is movement. Its entirely centered around moving out of crap on the ground, SG is a good example. It demands a particular skill, multi tasking. period. Thats it. Not everyone is good at that. ADD players will excel at it.


That's a major aspect of raiding as a whole, really. SG has a lot of crap on the ground, yes, and as such it's a damn good test of whether people are actually prepared to raid. Honestly, it doesn't require all that much multi-tasking and if you practice at it enough staying out of stuff on the ground becomes reflexive.

12/12/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Jeanharlowe
There are many ways to create a challenge, managing CC. CC is GONE from the game entirely. Managing differnt types of debuffs, think Chromaggus. Managing resistances and vulnerablities, think MC and BWL.


Bosses have CC mechanics occasionally. You can't really bring back resistances without bringing back the type of game play you don't seem to enjoy.

12/12/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Jeanharlowe
So what I am saying is this raid setup puts a high cognitive load on players, makes them think about alot of things at once. But thinking is too generous a term. It doesnt take any thought to raid, just alot of experience at super mario type movement games. Its an annoying mechanic that is repeated throughout MOP..what Sarth and others who go with his thinking ar saying is that its just not a fun mechanic. And it does not favor any kind of thinking, it favors spacial awareness.


Why is a high cognitive load bad? And really, unless you're doing Heroic raiding, it's not a high cognitive load.

12/12/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Jeanharlowe
The incredible arrogance exhibited by people who happen to be good at super mario jumping games, to the extent that they say that everyone else is bad, now thats the real story. How guilds now expect to down a boss with 6 attempts per nite and then give up and bench half the team, thats the real story. The raids are mindless, just focussed on tedious skill sets. If yoiu dont have these, guilds dont commit enough time for anyone to learn it. I have done SG 3 times. Already they are quitting and !@#$%ing when we dont one shot it. Uhhh...it takes more than 6 attempts per night to master this stuff...


It's not arrogance. You know how I got good at "super mario jumping games"? I practiced them. Played them. Some people aren't willing to, and I suppose that's fine, but then what are you playing for?
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
None of my statement mentioned anything about "causation". My statement was that there exist correlation between the two numbers, and not about "why" (causation)... ie: "a guild that raided T13 is more likely to attempt a boss at T14," not "a guild that raided T13 causes the guild to attempt a boss at T14."


That is effectively what you're implying though, since your stance leads itself to "Stone Guard is harder" as long as at any point any less than 54k guilds, including guilds that don't exist and will never pull the boss in the next 9 months, do not kill Stone Guards.

I doubt it's possible to verify consider data for guilds attempting a boss is not publicly available... It may be possible to verify an alternate but similar statement "Guilds that raided in T13 is likely that they will down a boss in T14" because data for "down a boss in T14" is actually available, and may possibly imply the first statement (guilds that down a boss in T14 is basically a subset of guilds that raid in T14)... Meh, too much work for an internet argument...


I would say that's the point.
When people make claims about how 98% of success is on Stone Guards, they're operating on what is probably a number that doesn't relate.
At the same time, when people make claims about how "a majority of raiders" or "50% of raiders" and all that, that's also based on flawed numbers (relating T13 to T14, or if you're like Sarosha, if they haven't killed it they're clearly stuck on it).

You can't half-bake numbers, take a 32, take a 54, handwave 3 or 4 pretty big assumptions in, and then say that it's likely. Especially when the implications are hilariously different if - 10% of those 22k still exist, 50% of those 22k still exist, 90% of those 22k still exist, 30% of those 22k are already covered in the current numbers because the new guilds that have clocked are made up of members of those guilds.

Already they are quitting and !@#$%ing when we dont one shot it. Uhhh...it takes more than 6 attempts per night to master this stuff...


Not sure if you're completely serious here. If you'd said "it takes more than 6 attempts per fight", that might actually make sense - as in 6 attempts to get used to a pattern recognition that this time it's the GREEN thing that hurts and next fight it's the BLUE thing that hurts.

Once you've learned to dodge thing on ground, that's a "skill" that you have forever. Encountering a circle in Stonecore and dodging it should make you better off when you come across a different circle in Dragon Soul, and then a different circle in Stone Guards. If it literally requires 6 attempts every night to "relearn" mechanics that have already been learned, how far are you taking that? Does it take you 6 attempts to relearn that Dots are good every night? Do you really believe that people aren't capable of remembering something that happened in another location/night and using that knowledge to NOT have to relearn things from scratch?

I mean, while mistakes happen, it's a pretty farreaching claim to suggest that people should expect 6 wipes every night for people to remaster things they spent 10/15/20/50/200 attempts learning. The entire point of farm content is that you've already done the learning; all you're doing is repeating the thing you already mastered and can do it again at will.

There are many ways to create a challenge, managing CC. CC is GONE from the game entirely. Managing differnt types of debuffs, think Chromaggus. Managing resistances and vulnerablities, think MC and BWL.

Now, for some strange reason, the entire game is based on moving your character around, in SG, while staying close to someone and doing something. Its 3 things to think about, sometimes more as a healer, its a big cognitive load.


That's because most of the former aren't actually "skills" that lead to challenge. They're about mashing a button or farming loot.

Whereas spatial reasoning, reaction times, coordination and teamwork - these are actual skill factors that lead to challenge.

When you talk about managing different types of debuffs - that's the premise that goes into most of the bosses - Garalon, Stone Guards, Gara'jal, Shek'zeer, Amber Shaper, Elegon, etc. You're using the term "manage debuffs", but what you're really meaning is "mash Decursive and play Whackamole on Green Boxes". THe actual fights are what involve actually managing debuffs - and reacting or manipulating them intelligently.
Edited by Slashlove on 12/12/2012 12:02 PM PST
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90 Orc Hunter
17370
12/12/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Jeanharlowe
There are many ways to create a challenge, managing CC. CC is GONE from the game entirely. Managing differnt types of debuffs, think Chromaggus. Managing resistances and vulnerablities, think MC and BWL.


vanilla wow is the best wow nostalgia poster detected

plz ignore all subsequent posts from user "Jeanharlowe"
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100 Troll Hunter
11905
12/12/2012 09:11 AMPosted by Hyjinx
You know how I got good at "super mario jumping games"? I practiced them.


Counter-Strike surfing. DO IT! :]
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