Sylvanas Queen of the Horde

85 Tauren Shaman
6230
I...

I'm not gonna lie, I kind of wish this was canon.


Every once in awhile when I think about how much of a trainwreck the lore is I go back and think "Well what could have made this not terrible?" And Sylvanas selling Varimathras to the Dreadlords to complete some old deal with Thrall about letting the Forsaken into the Horde, and the Blood elves joining the Horde as anti-demon specialists but not being playable, tend to top the list.
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100 Undead Death Knight
Req
14885
I'm not convinced that Sylvanas suddenly became a bad participant for being Warchief simply because of two past failures. I mean really, you guys are really saying that two mistakes in her lifetime of centuries of military experience suddenly makes her into not only a bad leader but a bad tactician as well, despite how one of those things inevitably led to the completion of one of the greatest superweapons the world has seen? Talk about being extremely critical about someone else.

It's like if you were in charge of a company and one of your employees gets into an accident that I would come to you and tell you that all of your past accomplishments meant nothing and condemn you for allowing such a thing to happen. I mean really years of your life spent to get to this position and suddenly your life and reputation is completely ruined because of one small accident? I'm sure that Sylvanas would have learned her lesson about trusting untrustworthy people by now. The notion that she would do so again sounds unlikely.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
It's not two failures it's a long line of violation of the rights of living beings and generally being an evil, terrible person.

Also: She totally botched the silverpine campaign, walked into a TON of ambushes there because she underestimated crowley and her backup plan was to... raise the guy that eventually shot her in the back of the head :P

She's an elf, her forces shouldn't be getting ambushed in forest combat.
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90 Orc Warlock
0
Guy walks into your business. Says he wants to work there.

Guy has horns.

Guy has wings.

Puts name down as "Lou Siffer"

Says he can get you some awesome contracts.

Seems. !@#$ing. Legit.

Also: She totally botched the silverpine campaign, walked into a TON of ambushes there because she underestimated crowley and her backup plan was to... raise the guy that eventually shot her in the back of the head :P


Don't forget the time in the Sunwell manga when she tried to take down Dar'khan, failed miserably and ended up chained to a wall with a mana tendril jammed down her throat.

Pro banshee queen right there.
Edited by Kurze on 12/3/2012 8:11 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
13505
I'm not convinced that Sylvanas suddenly became a bad participant for being Warchief simply because of two past failures. I mean really, you guys are really saying that two mistakes in her lifetime of centuries of military experience suddenly makes her into not only a bad leader but a bad tactician as well, despite how one of those things inevitably led to the completion of one of the greatest superweapons the world has seen? Talk about being extremely critical about someone else.

It's like if you were in charge of a company and one of your employees gets into an accident that I would come to you and tell you that all of your past accomplishments meant nothing and condemn you for allowing such a thing to happen. I mean really years of your life spent to get to this position and suddenly your life and reputation is completely ruined because of one small accident? I'm sure that Sylvanas would have learned her lesson about trusting untrustworthy people by now. The notion that she would do so again sounds unlikely.


Except their employees aren't Sylvanas.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
I'm not convinced that Sylvanas suddenly became a bad participant for being Warchief simply because of two past failures. I mean really, you guys are really saying that two mistakes in her lifetime of centuries of military experience suddenly makes her into not only a bad leader but a bad tactician as well, despite how one of those things inevitably led to the completion of one of the greatest superweapons the world has seen? Talk about being extremely critical about someone else.

It's like if you were in charge of a company and one of your employees gets into an accident that I would come to you and tell you that all of your past accomplishments meant nothing and condemn you for allowing such a thing to happen. I mean really years of your life spent to get to this position and suddenly your life and reputation is completely ruined because of one small accident? I'm sure that Sylvanas would have learned her lesson about trusting untrustworthy people by now. The notion that she would do so again sounds unlikely.


Except their employees aren't Sylvanas.


Sylvanas would have you killed, the raised into undeath so you could work for free! After all, as undead you technically don't have a reason to eat or drink, you're never worried about smelling bad and you can literally work for weeks without any form of rest. You don't have to worry about medical benefits of any sorts, not even dental, you're dead! You don't even need vacations.

On the serious side, Vynathlon, what Sylvanas has been doing hasn't engendered anyone to trust her in a position like Warchief. She might be a good tactician and strategist, but her actions bad since she became a banshee and they've gone downhill from there. Rampant use of the plague, a -decade- of knowingly using humans, dwarves and other races as test subjects in experiments to create said plague, raising even more dead humans into undeath. Those aren't the actions of someone that's trustworthy. Let alone trustworthy enough top hold the position of Warchief. Gallywax would be a better Warchief than Sylvanas!
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86 Draenei Paladin
3130
I got a idea for the next expansion:
"Rise of the Forsaken". Lady Sylvanas will become leader of the horde and places Crok Scourgebane as the warchief of the orcs, brings the grimtotem back into the horde, making Magatha chieftess of the tauren and kills gallywix and makes boss mida trade princess. She gives Crok Orgim's plate and Garrosh's Axe (gorehowl). The new alliance race will be high elves (becuse why not?) and the new horde race will be forsaken darkfallen. I will update the idea with the racials and stuff later on.


I agree with EVERY SINGLE IDEA in there. But this is too good to be true~remember, Blizzard is still mildly a sexist when it comes to heroes.....
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100 Undead Death Knight
Req
14885
She might be a good tactician and strategist, but her actions bad since she became a banshee and they've gone downhill from there. Rampant use of the plague, a -decade- of knowingly using humans, dwarves and other races as test subjects in experiments to create said plague, raising even more dead humans into undeath.
That has no baring on trustworthiness. In a battle to the death against another faction whom your faction despises completely and utterly all those experiments that she's conducted suddenly become useful. For the rest of the Horde, they may find said experiments to be horrid and unholy but if it's a choice between that and allowing the Alliance to live I think you can decipher which one they would choose. This is all out war. The Horde hates the Alliance with every fiber of their being and with these experiments taking place, they're experimenting with boundaries unknown to them. It may be against their consciences to do such things but if they don't they'll be killed off.

Plus if you'll notice they've only conducted experiments on Alliance races simply because that is the sole purpose of their experiments: to learn more about their enemies to kill them. If they were as untrustworthy as you say they are then they would include Horde races into their experiments. They have not. This type of stuff is just unholy concepts of work needed for them to help win the war. If they weren't in war time then by all means, I'd suggest to burn the Forsaken and their experiments with holy fire. Right now however this type of stuff is useful against their enemies. Without it there's a definite chance that the Horde could lose. The Horde at the moment needs Sylvanas and the Forsaken's help and tactics to destroy the Alliance.
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90 Human Death Knight
2055
Her short story where she says she's done with the forsaken up until she finds out she's going to wowhell?

I mean she literally didn't care that they'd be wiped out if she died despite the fact that they idolize her and flat out -needed- her.

I read that as she does actually care, but was denying to herself that she did. When the Valkyr showed her that she'd go to 'hell' if she abandoned the Forsaken, it caused her to rally to the idea that she has come to care for them.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Her short story where she says she's done with the forsaken up until she finds out she's going to wowhell?

I mean she literally didn't care that they'd be wiped out if she died despite the fact that they idolize her and flat out -needed- her.

I read that as she does actually care, but was denying to herself that she did. When the Valkyr showed her that she'd go to 'hell' if she abandoned the Forsaken, it caused her to rally to the idea that she has come to care for them.


Most doubtful. She doesn't care, it would of been implied differently.
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100 Human Paladin
18505
12/06/2012 02:53 PMPosted by Demonbrewer
I read that as she does actually care, but was denying to herself that she did. When the Valkyr showed her that she'd go to 'hell' if she abandoned the Forsaken, it caused her to rally to the idea that she has come to care for them.


Sylvanas is bound for Hell when she dies regardless of her feelings about the Forsaken. Note that she was sent back there when she briefly died again in Silverpine.

After experiencing the torments of the dark void, Sylvanas still didn't care what happened to the Forsaken... she only cared about keeping herself out of that place. She decided that the minions she once used as weapons would now serve better as a shield against death... but she still views them as tools to be used. Not as people.
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77 Undead Priest
2560
Question: I have seen this brought up constantly that Sylvanas is driven by fear, but what lore supports this. In the short story, we learned that she allowed herself to be reborn not out of fear but out of the desire to be part of something.

Sylvanas answered, but not right away. The lurking oblivion filled her with terror. Even now, she felt the tempest rage around her. This was her only way out. But she didn't want to give her assent out of fear. She waited until she felt something more. A fellowship. A sisterhood. Sisters. Separate, they were all trapped. But together, they were free… and with them, she could postpone her fate.


Is there something in the books that mention her fear of dying? Because here in the short story we know fear was not the deciding factor of her choosing to be brought back. She is using the Forsaken to protect her and the kingdom she is building, but this does not mean she does not care in her own way about the Forsaken. We know she cares more about the Forsaken than the Elves she led before. And we know that she cares enough for the Forsaken that she would put her life in danger by going to the front lines a couple of times in order to achieve victory. So what lore is there that she does not care about the Forsaken, or even that fear is what is driving her?

Sylvanas did not move or shy away. "I was once like you, Garrosh," she answered, her voice quiet and steady, loud enough only for the warchief to hear. "Those who served me were tools. Arrows in my quiver." She reached up and slowly brought down her hood, then directed her dark gaze at him. Her eyes were alive, their oversized jet-black pupils livid with rage, red embers glowing deep within.


The army of undead that surrounded and protected the Dark Lady was still hers, body and soul. But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore. They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
11910
12/07/2012 06:10 PMPosted by Deathssage
Question: I have seen this brought up constantly that Sylvanas is driven by fear, but what lore supports this. In the short story, we learned that she allowed herself to be reborn not out of fear but out of the desire to be part of something.


its the lines

12/07/2012 06:10 PMPosted by Deathssage
The lurking oblivion filled her with terror. Even now, she felt the tempest rage around her. This was her only way out.


12/07/2012 06:10 PMPosted by Deathssage
and with them, she could postpone her fate.


12/07/2012 06:10 PMPosted by Deathssage
They were a bulwark against the infinite.


and the like that generally lead people to the conclusion that fear is the prime motivator for her at this point and it would be hard to deny that it isn't a major factor for her at this point (whether it is the only factor or even the prime one could be debatable).
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77 Undead Priest
2560
12/07/2012 06:16 PMPosted by Shaithiss
Question: I have seen this brought up constantly that Sylvanas is driven by fear, but what lore supports this. In the short story, we learned that she allowed herself to be reborn not out of fear but out of the desire to be part of something.


its the lines

The lurking oblivion filled her with terror. Even now, she felt the tempest rage around her. This was her only way out.


and with them, she could postpone her fate.


They were a bulwark against the infinite.


and the like that generally lead people to the conclusion that fear is the prime motivator for her at this point and it would be hard to deny that it isn't a major factor for her at this point (whether it is the only factor or even the prime one could be debatable).


That is not the meaning of what was written, it seems people are taking things out of context to make it seem she acted out of fear? Between the first two quotes it clearly states that she did not want to agree to their proposal out of fear and waited until she felt something else. Ignoring the middle of the paragraph completely changes the meaning of what was written. So yes she was afraid of dying, but she did not let that fear be a factor in her decision.

Sylvanas answered, but not right away. The lurking oblivion filled her with terror. Even now, she felt the tempest rage around her. This was her only way out. But she didn't want to give her assent out of fear. She waited until she felt something more. A fellowship. A sisterhood. Sisters. Separate, they were all trapped. But together, they were free… and with them, she could postpone her fate.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
11910
12/07/2012 06:52 PMPosted by Deathssage
. So yes she was afraid of dying, but she did not let that fear be a factor in her decision.


It never states that it wasn't a factor it states that she didn't want it to be her deciding factor.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
6730
How did you manage to go from evil dictator to plaguing everything in sight? I mean really plaguing the lands just makes them uninhabitable for the Horde and makes the Horde unable to obtain resources and soldiers, two things needed for the destruction of the Alliance. Until the Alliance is destroyed the Horde are pretty much safe from harm and that Sylvanas has an obligation to ensure that the Horde prospers so that its military prospers as well.


No Sylvanas would keep going and destroying everything. You act as if Sylvanas is a good person. She is not, she'll destroy every innocent person from the Alliance, even the children or brainwash them to grow up and turn into Forsaken whatever.


Evil? Perhaps, but she's terrified of the darkness that awaits her. It's not like she chose her fate as a cursed undead. Because she wants to avoid that fate, she's willing to sacrifice others for her own well being. Obviously she's not a very good person ( or undead... w/e) but she has legitimate reasons to fear and resent her eventual fate.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/07/2012 06:52 PMPosted by Deathssage
until she felt something else


Yes, she cares about THE VAL'KYR

Not the Forsaken.
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100 Undead Death Knight
Req
14885
I wonder why this is a popular subject... I mean I wasn't saying that Sylvanas is 100% good, rather I was just saying that if Sylvanas were in charge that she'd be a good warchief, I mean note the war in warchief. Once the Alliance was destroyed then by all means I would fully expect you guys to cast her into a pit of holy fire.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Destroying the Alliance. Yeah that doesn't sound like a noble goal for the Horde.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/07/2012 07:35 PMPosted by Vynathlon
I wonder why this is a popular subject... I mean I wasn't saying that Sylvanas is 100% good, rather I was just saying that if Sylvanas were in charge that she'd be a good warchief, I mean note the war in warchief. Once the Alliance was destroyed then by all means I would fully expect you guys to cast her into a pit of holy fire.


You're making SO MANY weird assumptions about how she would run the Horde I don't even know where to begin.... wait yes I do

1. She's EVIL. She wouldn't be liked by the majority of the Horde on any issue besides war, this is the same issue Garrosh is having.

2. She wouldn't have the horde's best interests at heart, she would have it as a police state where dissent gets you a knife in the back, a lobotomy and a few medical experiments.
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