And Mistweavers get the kick (Part 2!)

90 Blood Elf Monk
14530
See. You will come to find it a rarity that Blizz actually gives a damn about our crying. They go based off "logs". What Blizz fails at every time is actually investigating logs and situations.

Why were some monks at 155k HPS and why were some at 70k? If you dug through the logs you can find the healers with top parses are of the following:

1. Fed gear. I found one log a while back where the monk was doing 34% healing. However, as will be my next points, they were 4 healing Garalon with a resto Druid, 2 holy pallies, and a MW. The MW had nearly 10 item levels above the other healers.

2. Easy meter padding. I parsed no. 49 on Tuesday doing 98k HPS on Heroic Stone Guard 25 man(before Fridays nerfs). How? Single target healing our guardian Druid who was jumping into things intentionally so I could pad meters. Would Blizzard know this? No. They'd just see what I did in throughput. It never crosses their minds people do this for epeen.

3. Taking less healers and more DPS. I saw this A LOT on logs. This has nothing to do with monks. This has to do with the healers and raiders feeling comfortable to do this. However it wi highly inflate the HPS logs.

What Blizz needs to do is have people planted into raiding guilds and into arenas to actually see what is going on. However, I feel the speed runs and arena competitions that happened a few weeks ago REALLY made Blizz aware of exactly what was going on. But the downfall with this is, PVE at least, they are only getting a view of what the top 1% of end game raiding guilds are doing. This leaves out the rest of their player base. They also aren't taking into consideration these people have item levels way higher than your average player and results differ highly in the changes based off 25 man raiding and 10. Renewing Mist changes really didn't do an extreme amount in 10 mans, but holy crap did it kill tr AOE healing in 25s.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
6415
LoL another nerd? blizzard is friggin crazy... thats it bye bye my monk oh blizzard i really should charge you all the time i spent on my monk leveling and equipping...

I really don't get it why a second big nerf? Maybe i was really sucking, because with all these nerfs prob monk was supposed to be single healing heroic raids...

the first nerd was already really strong but at least we wasn't having mana problems, our net hps dropped, but at least we were ok on mana... now our healing gone and also our mana!

CMON AT LEAST !@#$ING CHANGE THE SET BONUS CMON 10% MANA FROM SURGING MIST? OR INCREASING 5% HEAL FROM ENVELOPING MIST (32% nerfed)
Edited by Mithoniel on 12/4/2012 9:37 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360

i do fine in 10m, usually either equal or up to 10% higher than my guilds holy paladin in healing and we are equally geared (5.1 pre hotfix)


Raid bots 10 man normal monk is taking a sever nose dive. It's not pretty at all. I suspect by next neek at this rate monks will be the worst healers for 10 man or down at the shaman level.

I did say pre hotfix... when 5.1 first released only my fistweaving was reduced by 25%... my mistweaving stayed the same
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90 Pandaren Monk
7985
These posts are like writing complaint letters, putting them in a bottle and throwing them in the sea. You're wasting your time here. Post in the healing forum where the blues allegedly Lurk.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
posted my official thread on the healer forums.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9105
So I've now had a chance to go through most current content (other than H sha) with the current nerfs, and my reaction is that...the sky really isn't falling.

I mean it was a nerf.
It puts us around similar throughput on most fights (though I still win a lot of fights) with average play. With flawless play our burst healing (IE with TFT) is still unrivaled by anyone except shammies or holy paladins using CDS (and still beat by disc priest spirit shell but...who's isnt?). A number of kills in the logs I'm going to link happened to have worse play than normal (because obviously whenever I'm destroying the other healers while still at full mana we wipe, cuz duh), and my logs are by no means "amazing" but I was still able to compete very well as per usual. I am no longer blowing everyone away though, this is for sure.
There are a few problems with monks though. First off, the difference between a monk with flawless play and average play is night and day. Easily 50-100% more throughput. On the other hand, most healers with flawless play can probably expect 20-40% increased throughput but they also are able to keep people alive much better.
So now, bad monks are far below most healers. From experience, I've outhealed numerous 470~ ilvl monks with my 450 (now 460~) ilvl holy paladin in raids. It's painfully obvious that if blizzard wants the 'average' player to continue playing, monks will need massive changes.
On the other hand, amazing monks are now around similar throughput to the other healers. Assuming flawless play on both sides. But the problem is, we bring nothing other than our own personal-survivability as utility now that throughput is equal.
Discs have DR CD's, higher raw throughput, while most of that throughput is absorbs, and SS which completely eliminates most "burst damage" phases of an encounter.
Rshammies bring similar HPS when you include their CD's. This means they have lower "average" healing than us, but whenever its needed they can burst as much or more than we can with flawless play, and all they do is press 1 button (and can continue triage healing etc). They also bring spirit link and mana tide, which feels nearly mandatory for healing through burst phases w/o a disc priest. Oh and they bring +10% health to everyone (great for surviving those "near one shot" mechanics, which can prevent tons of wipes.)
Holy paladins have tons of utility and some of the best tank healing in the game. They can also spec for amazing burst AoE or sustained single target etc, as fights demand. This makes them very versatile and effective on nearly every fight.
Rdruids. I feel bad for them. They are most definitely in a very bad spot at the moment. This thread isn't about them, but for comparisons sake they bring high sustained healing with negligible burst (though higher "average" the lack of strong burst leaves them sorely lacking in the raw HPS department). They have strong healing while moving via rejuvy/swiftmend/symbiosis SWG, etc. As well, they do bring utility in the form of symbiosis, FF, combat rez as a healer, etc. It doesn't make up for their lacking HPS, nor is it as strong as the above 3's.
Holy priests: Unsure how they play out, from my experience they are weaker than rshams/MW at raid heals and worse at tank healing than holy paladins but are sort of a jack of all trades between the two. However, it's currently outshadow'd by disc which completely dominates everything (except for tsulong, where GS is OP.)
Long story short, with near-flawless play on all sides, monks bring similar (slightly higher in many cases) throughput as most other healers, while lacking the utility that makes the other healers great.
With bad play, MW are simply far behind other classes at similar skill levels, at least from what I've seen.

So while I say the sky isn't falling, I don't feel useful to my raid. I'm brought because I have relatively solid performances, am normally reliable (show up to raids on time etc), and because I perform mechanics well. Though I have my days where I just mess up every mechanics (cough tsulong nightmares I hate you). But regardless, I feel like I'd be more useful on a disc priest/holy paladin/rsham than my MW.

On another note, I've always been a proponent of intellect stacking. I've stacked int before the patch first hit, after it hit, and I'm still stacking it. There hasn't been a single fight so far where (when properly healing) I felt like I couldn't make it through a fight. I'm currently around 7500 spirit, flask/food int, and have around 33k spellpower buffed and I love it. I very rarely SCK because it's cost was increased by a lot more than jab. (Jabs effective increase ~3k, SCK's effective increase is ~6k.) Also, when you have around 10-12 targets with RnM jab>SCK HPS wise anyway. Anyway, my main point is that I'm still stacking int and I'm not having trouble with mana. You can point at my gear and say I'm well overgeared for most of the fights in the log, but I'm still running less spirit than most. (Admittedly, if you factor in trinkets I'm probably around 10k passive spirit.) I generally raid with 2rshams/1disc, so I may get more regen than others.

Anyway, most of my conclusions are drawn from my most recent raid nights logs here(4/12):
http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/27393/

There are definitely still fights which dont favor us, such as lei shi. The lack of easy ability to fore-know when get away is coming makes it feel like a waste to constantly RnM, but once I started spamming it helped a lot [hey just like when I started healing as a MW]. At the moment our tank burst is still worthwhile for fights like lei shi though.

Anyway, I feel like the nerfs took us too low in throughput when you take into consideration the lack of utility comparing to other healers throughput+utility. I don't think we're now "absolutely broken" in terms of throughput, we're still competitive. I feel like theres a lot wrong with the class, but with my current gear/progression its not enough for me to reroll for current progression. Obviously what I do for next tier depends on buffs and how lucky I am when gearing up alts.

Also I don't feel like mana is nearly as bad as most people say it is, maybe it's a playstyle thing though.
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As a fresh 90, i found my self healing 5m heroics ( only healed 2 so far) mostly with healing spheres.... Even soothing mist cost too much for my poor gears. Every once in a while i shoot out a few RMs, and chi wave the chi. Enveloping mist heals less and slower than healing spheres, healing spheres are nice though, put down a few right on top of tanks usually get them back up. Rushing jade wind is mostly useful for the eminence, i was really excited to try out my new 90 talent, til i see my mana after 2 SCKs.
Edited by Noriel on 12/5/2012 2:18 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
6415
the problem is healing sphere don't give chi... blizzard need to make healing sphere when consumed generate a chi or the class will be dead
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90 Pandaren Monk
11210
12/05/2012 03:19 AMPosted by Mithoniel
the problem is healing sphere don't give chi... blizzard need to make healing sphere when consumed generate a chi or the class will be dead


They would imply they want us using Healing Spheres as our staple heal. I hope to god that isn't the case...
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
12/05/2012 03:19 AMPosted by Mithoniel
the problem is healing sphere don't give chi... blizzard need to make healing sphere when consumed generate a chi or the class will be dead


Given the fact that the spell is expressly limited to having 3 placed, my suspicion is it is far more likely to get the roll treatment with a fairly short recharge timer than to get buffed by also granting chi. Or they give it chi and quadruple the mana cost.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8070
I don't know if its just me.... but i really !@#$ing hate healing sphere. Like, I get its really good now.... but its so annoying to use. and then if I do use it, chances are the person moved before it even heals them..
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
12/05/2012 06:01 AMPosted by Rosié
I don't know if its just me.... but i really !@#$ing hate healing sphere. Like, I get its really good now.... but its so annoying to use. and then if I do use it, chances are the person moved before it even heals them..


I'm pretty sure it's not just you. It wouldn't even be on my bar if it wasn't dirt cheap and very efficient. To say it is clunky to use is putting it mildly.
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90 Troll Monk
7835
I've leveled as Mistweaver the whole way to 88 so far. Since I hit 85, questing as Mistweaver has become a royal PITA. I'm OOM constantly.

I had initially attributed it to bad design - because I remember in Cataclysm many classes suddenly had huge mana issues in the last few levels. but it sounds like it's these changes from 5.1?

What is aggravating me is that I leveled my disc priest from 85 to 90 already, and the disc priest both kills faster and has fewer mana issues than the mistweaver does. You wouldn't expect it to be worse on both ends.

The mana cost of jab needs to be decreased significantly IMO.
Edited by Rahy on 12/5/2012 11:25 AM PST
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100 Pandaren Monk
17830

i do fine in 10m, usually either equal or up to 10% higher than my guilds holy paladin in healing and we are equally geared (5.1 pre hotfix)


Raid bots 10 man normal monk is taking a sever nose dive. It's not pretty at all. I suspect by next neek at this rate monks will be the worst healers for 10 man or down at the shaman level.


And my group raids 10 man with my MW and a shaman healer. Well !@#$.
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100 Pandaren Monk
17830
Does anyone else get an oppressive feeling while playing monk now? Every chi builder takes a noticeable chunk of mana. Every panic insta-heal makes it look like you're about to go OOM. Chi spenders heal for just shy of relieving. Raid cooldowns have no impact over drawn out aoe damage. Regardless of the numbers we put out, it just feels like I'm teetering on the edge of running out of mana or effective moves to make all the time. I know I never got this impression from resto shaman/druid, or disc/holy priest. Is it just me?
Edited by Rakachu on 12/5/2012 11:53 AM PST
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