Do Tanks Need Hit/Expertise?

90 Gnome Warlock
9480
Basicly I'm asking if its required for tanks to get 7.5% hit/expertise soft caps, or is it better for tanks to just go for the dodge/parry over the hit/expertise?
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90 Gnome Warlock
9480
Control + Threat
Stamina > Mastery > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Expertise (7.5%) > Parry > Dodge > Haste

Survival
Stamina > Mastery > Parry > Dodge > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Expertise (7.5%) > Haste

That's warriors

Control + Threat
Stamina > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Expertise (15%) > Mastery > Haste > Parry > Dodge

Survival
Stamina > Parry > Dodge > Mastery > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Haste > Expertise (7.5%)

That's Paladin's

Stamina >= Agility > Melee Hit (7.5%) = Expertise (7.5%) > Crit > Haste = Mastery > Dodge

Druids

Control + Threat
Stamina > Mastery > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Expertise (7.5%) > Parry > Dodge > Haste

Survival
Stamina > Mastery > Parry > Dodge > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Expertise (7.5%) > Haste

DK

Which do we chose survival or Control+Threat or a balance of both?
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Where did you get the idea that 7.5% is a place you should stop stacking expertise?
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90 Gnome Warlock
9480
Noxxic says on a few of the tanks that we only need 7.5%
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90 Gnome Warlock
9480
Then what should I be looking at?
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90 Human Paladin
14690
This forum

Maintankadin

Tankspot

Take your pick. Get an understanding of the class mechanics before using gear recommendation sites.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13385
EJ is good for some classes, not so much for others.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
First:

Learn what 'control' actually means.

Control is not the opposite of survival. Control is damage spike control, as opposed to overall damage mitigation.

Generally this is done through active mitigation.

So you then ask yourself 'How do I get resources for my active mitigation?' Every tank has different answers for this so asking 'Does a tank need hardcap expertise?' is as useless a question as 'Does a dps need to stack mastery?'

Some tanks aren't affected by parries as much in their resource generation. Others absolutely rely on not being parried. DKs don't even care if they miss.

Ask better questions.

Oh, and no tank should need to care about threat except in outlying circumstances. Tanks -may- care about dps however.
Edited by Kickgruntler on 11/28/2012 9:06 AM PST
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90 Gnome Warlock
9480
First:

Learn what 'control' actually means.

Control is not the opposite of survival. Control is damage spike control, as opposed to overall damage mitigation.

Generally this is done through active mitigation.

So you then ask yourself 'How do I get resources for my active mitigation?' Every tank has different answers for this so asking 'Does a tank need hardcap expertise?' is as useless a question as 'Does a dps need to stack mastery?'

Some tanks aren't affected by parries as much in their resource generation. Others absolutely rely on not being parried. DKs don't even care if they miss.

Ask better questions.


How about you read my post i didnt ask about the hard cap i asked about soft cap thanks for the comment but wasnt needed, and also i was asking about tanks in general if its better to get hit/expertise soft capped or just put pure avoidance but i guess some ppl dont read well
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11/28/2012 09:07 AMPosted by Hellswarlock
i asked about soft cap


There is no such thing.
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90 Gnome Warlock
9480
i asked about soft cap


There is no such thing.


there is too I'm sure of it, cause haste has a soft cap at diff points 4717 is first break point so that would be soft cap, think before posting please
Edited by Hellswarlock on 11/28/2012 9:10 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
15630
First:

Learn what 'control' actually means.

Control is not the opposite of survival. Control is damage spike control, as opposed to overall damage mitigation.

Generally this is done through active mitigation.

So you then ask yourself 'How do I get resources for my active mitigation?' Every tank has different answers for this so asking 'Does a tank need hardcap expertise?' is as useless a question as 'Does a dps need to stack mastery?'

Some tanks aren't affected by parries as much in their resource generation. Others absolutely rely on not being parried. DKs don't even care if they miss.

Ask better questions.


How about you read my post i didnt ask about the hard cap i asked about soft cap thanks for the comment but wasnt needed, and also i was asking about tanks in general if its better to get hit/expertise soft capped or just put pure avoidance but i guess some ppl dont read well


lets explain this a little better.

His point is that there's no such thing as "better".

you can claim that option A is "mathematically" (or, in theory) better than B. But ingame such things are not 100% accurate.

For example, monk:

you have 2 possible routes.

A) gear for hit/exp/haste/crit
B) gear for dodge/parry/mastery.

In your terms, A would be control, B would be survivability.

A requires the tank to get 7.5% hit, 15% exp and dump the rest in haste until ~7k then dump rating on crit.

B would require a lower hit/exp rating, and would instead focus on dodge/parry/mastery.

Most smart monks would pick A simply because it offers more control, so if you play well, you have an excellent result. Your active mitigation uptime will be higher, you'll be able to use defensive skills more often, etc etc.

While B is the "stand still and hope everything goes alright" mentality.

So to answear your question: Do tanks need hit/exp? yes ..
how much they need? it's up to the player.


If he wants more control over his resources, he'll aim for the hard caps (hit is 7.5% and exp is 15%) because it means that 100% of the times those players press their "resource-generating skills", they'll always land, they know exactly how much resource they'll have available ..

the "good part" of aiming for the hard caps on hit/exp is that it means you have complete control over your skills and completely remove RNG out of the equation.

but the "bad part" is that since you sacrifice a lot of passive survivability to meet those caps, it leaves everything up to you. If you fail as a player to use your skills, you'll pay the price, because your passive defense will be lower.

If the player wants more passive survivability, but sacrifice control over his resources (by having the chance of misses etc, which translate into not always having resources to use defensive skills), he wont aim for hit/exp hard caps. Usually this choice of gear means you focus on avoidance/mastery and hit/exp is whatever leftover you have on the gear.

For monks, we usually cap hit/exp because our active mitigation abilities are ungodly powerfull4 (shuffle provides +20% dmg reduction +20% parry ... guard absorb almost 50% of your hp with high vengeance and we have quite powerfull self heals), so being able to use them as much as possible is better than relying on our passives, which are quite weak.

But each tank have their own mechanics.
Edited by Leeflow on 11/28/2012 9:29 AM PST
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: Yes, but in different amounts for different tanks.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
11/28/2012 09:09 AMPosted by Hellswarlock
there is too I'm sure of it, cause haste has a soft cap at diff points 4717 is first break point so that would be soft cap, think before posting please

A soft cap is where a stat greatly loses value. Expertise only has a soft cap in certain circumstances.

For DPS, expertise soft caps at 7.5%, where dodge is fully negated, because being behind the boss automatically negates parry, causing expertise's value to drop to zero. Similarly, since Death Strike and Rune Strike can't be parried, Blood has a soft cap at 7.5% as well, although their other melee attacks still benefit from it up to 15%.

However, there's no point at which expertise loses value for Protection paladins, so Protection paladins have no soft cap on expertise. It retains its full defensive value to 15%.

Bears and Protection warriors don't care about expertise caps insomuch as they care about how much expertise they need to become comfortable with their rage generation. 7.5% is a nice, round number to shoot for (being 50% of the cap), but it's not a real soft cap because, like paladins, expertise doesn't actually lose any value at that point. I believe Brewmasters are in a similar situation with chi generation, but I'm not certain--however, the point that there's no real soft cap stands for them as well. In all three cases, the "soft cap" is imaginary.
Edited by Keten on 11/28/2012 9:51 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/28/2012 09:07 AMPosted by Hellswarlock
How about you read my post i didnt ask about the hard cap i asked about soft cap thanks for the comment but wasnt needed, and also i was asking about tanks in general if its better to get hit/expertise soft capped or just put pure avoidance but i guess some ppl dont read well


If you can't manage your own hitcap correctly (You're 1.58% rating over your hit cap) don't get snippy when you ask a poorly conceived question about other roles' hit caps, or explanations about what hit and expertise do for tanks, and why it's important to understand why hit cap, exp dodge cap, and exp parry cap are important concepts.

The truth is 'Every tank and playstyle is different, so you need to look at each individual tank's needs and gear accordingly'. Some tanks want hit and expertise. Some tanks don't care. That's the only correct answer you are EVER going to get for your question.
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Everyone knows, or should know, what is meant by the Expertise soft cap, and arguing about it is merely arguing for its own sake. Also, if you want to be technical, yes, warriors do have an expertise soft cap, but its not exact or universal, or even self contained. It's the point where you generate enough rage to use your full suite of active mitigation.

Anyway, I find I have more survivability going for accuracy over avoidance up to the point where I can keep Block up and use Barrier regularly, only then bothering with parry and dodge. In any event, avoidance only affects physical damage, whereas active mitigation can be used against any type of damage.

Passive survivability stats are now only desirable if you have a habit of going AFK while tanking.
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90 Orc Death Knight
10860
11/28/2012 11:03 AMPosted by Zapwidget
Everyone knows, or should know, what is meant by the Expertise soft cap, and arguing about it is merely arguing for its own sake.

And the only reason anyone cares about the expertise "soft cap" is because game mechanics allows you to "hard cap" by reaching the soft cap and getting behind a mob.
This is not something tanks have the luxury of doing so trying to apply it to tanks is an act of futility
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90 Pandaren Monk
12380
11/28/2012 11:03 AMPosted by Zapwidget
Everyone knows, or should know, what is meant by the Expertise soft cap, and arguing about it is merely arguing for its own sake
Not really. A lot of people are objecting to the use of the term "expertise soft cap" because it implies that expertise loses value at 7.5%, and there are a lot of people who are saying "Get exp to 7.5%" when, for most tank classes, there is literally no reason to stop at that point and it's a completely arbitrary point that would work as effectively as 1% or 10% or 6.3%.
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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90 Draenei Paladin
5475
For prot paladins, expertise after 7.5% doesn't benefit Avenger Shield, Holy Wrath, Hammer of Wrath, maybe consecrate. The defensive gains from expertise may be constant to hardcap, but the offensive gains aren't. Softcapping expertise makes pulling bosses smooth because avenger shield isn't going to miss, and it allows you to get interrupts on bosses/lvl 93 mobs (Challenge Modes) with avenger shield. All hardcapping does is get you 7.5% more HoPo from Crusader Strike/Hammer of Righteous and a little more Seal of Insight/Battle Healer healing.

You still get spikes with the control build. And you don't "stand still and hope everything goes right" with avoidance; you still generate HoPo, you still actively mitigate, it just isn't as often and for as much, and it's not some gigantic difference either. Lots of hyperbolic responses in this thread.

Both schemes work. I was an avoidance tank until recently (avoidance gear didn't drop frequently enough) and I'd love to go back to it. I definitely felt a big drop in survivability going from pure avoidance to expertise capping, and the gains from more 'control' so far seems to just be making Holy Avenger a pretty OP defensive cooldown.
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