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Clearly we are lagging behind and with other classes such as pallys there's no way to not have all your heals healed over with steady burst heals. It's a fact.
For those who say otherwise clearly aren't raid healing with such classes. Even with my 2-pc and being able to have a limited rejuv blanket I can't even compare.
Every single heal I do gets over healed by either instant single healing or instant burst aoe healing while my slow hots simply go into OH and I am left behind on logs.
And don't for a minute think that Tranq will always save you even if you cast it in tree or with vigil. You best hope you're 100% or you most likely will die casting it on certain fights.
Anyways I could care less what people say - whether we're 'fine' or only need help in 25 mans. Fact of the matter is regardless what raid size and all else being equal we'll always be second.
Does this mean we can't heal any encounter? Nope, but unless your buddy healer is Oom or simply mediocre you will 99% of the time be last on logs.
Edited by Moophious on 11/30/2012 12:56 AM PST
Ghostcrawler insist that druids are fine in PvE, so there was 0 changes to us on 5.1.
Even pally got a minor +5% buff to their aoe skill. I know thats a minor value, but even pallys that are better right now then us, both at mana and hps, received something.
They buffed disc priest into the most overpowered healer, making then mandatory to any raiding guild, and nerfed monks enough to make them competitive.
What people forget is that druids needs to have better HPS, to compensate for lack of damage reduction CD's, and the fact that we heal with HoT's instead of normal heals.
The problem with HoT's is that if you can bring class X that heals Y HPS without Hots, and class Z that heals Y HPS with Hots, you want X, because HoT's are by default a disvantage, you risk deaths alot more with those then with common heals.
We dont need a MAJOR change, just couple of minor ones.
- Change Lifebloom Clearcast proc to 5%.
- Reduce the base mana cost of rejuvenation by ~8%
- Let Clearcast stack to a max of 2.
- Change mushrooms making the cost to 4 times what it is now, make each mushroom not stack, change the GCD to plant back to 1.5, and make it heals for 5 times what it heals now. And incrase CD to 15sec. (Remember that making it not stack will make it heals for only 1.66 what it heals nowdays not really 5 times)
If anyone wish to understand why i proposed those changes just read here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7199400555#3
But since GC thinks we are "fine" right now, i really doubt we will see any change before 5.2, if we see any in 5.2 at all.
Sad thing that they deny what is obvious. We dont need a huge buff, but some minor tweaks to make us as viable as other healers, but they keep saying we are fine.
We have the most useless spell in the game right now (Mushrooms) since they fail even at what they were supposed to be the best suited for. No one ever uses it, and blizzard changes nothing.
Ever since he appeared on the scene back during BC and crushed LB, we've always been a problem for GC. He doesn't like fire and forget heals, which is our specialty, and he's finally got us under control. Don't expect to be unleashed anytime soon.
Let's just say that I'm not surprised with who has been responding to a post wondering about the state of resto druid PvE.
GC says we're fine. Some of the people in this thread think we're not. You can decide.
For my part, we're fine. We didn't get any changes because we didn't need any changes. Yes, this includes both mana regen and AoE burst changes...it includes 10 man and 25 man. We don't need them.
Despite all the complaints to the contrary, we are dead in the middle of healing right now, according to every log metric that you can find on World of Logs or Raidbot or wherever you want to go. These metrics are much more useful than any forum post (mine included) because they look at how the average is doing rather than how the loudest people are doing.
Of course, the OP question is loaded anyway. We never were "one of the worst" healers and we continue not to be. As the xpac continues and different healing classes get closer and closer together from tweaks, that question will become even more meaningless.
EDIT: While we don't need changes, I don't mean to imply that some wouldn't be welcome. It would actually be nice to have burst AoE. I wouldn't complain. But we never have and I don't expect it to start now.
Also, Nourish is useless. Its HPM is lower than a glyphed Regrowth + Living Seed. The glyph of Regrowth also makes Healing Touch much less compelling. Making Nourish and Healing Touch worth casting would be a nice change...though we went the entire LK xpac without ever having a good reason to cast HT without Nature's Swiftness, so again, I'm not expecting much.
Edited by Barandis on 11/30/2012 7:10 AM PST
Resto druids aren't really weaker that any other healer currently. They do tend to look worse on meters because of direct heals acting faster than heal-over-time abilitys. That said they could stand a few small buffs...
Mushrooms don't seem terribly useful as they are now. The best suggestion I've seen for them would be to have other spells cause a mushroom to spawn. This way using them won't eat up 4 gcd's.
Tranquility has too much ramp up. Until the hot gets stacked up it does very little healing. Compare this against a shaman's htt or ascendance: both spells allow the shaman to cast direct heals on the tank while the cd does aoe healing for them. I'd like to see the first few ticks of tranquility hit faster or harder and ramp down as the spell goes on, similar to wild growth.
Lastly I dislike the hot's can be wasted because another healer used a direct heal, a mechanic that refund's mana for overhealing on hot's would make resto druids much easier to play. This would have to be carefully balanced so that overhealing with a hot is never a net gain for the druid's mana.
Edit: I agree with the guy above me about nourish being too week.
Edited by Madpenguin on 11/30/2012 7:15 AM PST
This is a really interesting idea. I don't know that I would want to see it implemented quite like that (even if balanced) because it completely changes our playstyle. Pre-hotting would go from a relic of the past to the way things had to be done. Maybe some people would enjoy that. I don't think I would.
But some mechanism to minimize the bad mana effects of sniping would be great. Perhaps offering a small mana refund if another healer heals a target of one of your Rejuvs, or something like that. (It wouldn't have to affect Lifebloom at all.) I don't have a sniping problem since I primarily 10-man, but that would be a change I could go for.
That's just off the top of my head though. I'm sure something else along the same lines could work at least as well.
Pre-hotting would go from a relic of the past to the way things had to be done. Maybe some people would enjoy that. I don't think I would.
Whoops, I don't want that either.
Perhaps offering a small mana refund if another healer heals a target of one of your Rejuvs, or something like that.
That could work, though I can't think of a way to determine how much mana it should return. If the target was low and only received a weak heal then it's possible that there won't be over healing. In that case there's no need for the druid to gain mana back.
The idea I originally had in mind was to restore a portion of the mana each time a tick does pure over healing. Say rejuv ticks 6 times, each tick that does no healing (just over healing) would give back 1/12th of the original mana cost. If the entire spell does no healing then the druid gains back half the mana spent casting rejuv. Extra ticks from haste would make this return more efficient, so you'd need over 100% haste before it could result in a net mana gain. I'm not sure if that's possible but it seems unlikely.
Whatever system you go with, rejuv and wild growth are probably the only spells that should have this mana return. Lifebloom usually has close to 100% up-time, and can be refreshed for little to no mana so it doesn't need a mana return. Regrowth is situational and can be free to cast so it definitely shouldn't give mana back. Tranquility is also situational, if a large percent of tranquility's healing is over healing you probably didn't need to cast it in the first place. I think that's all of a druid's hots, yell at me if I missed something.
Edited by Madpenguin on 11/30/2012 9:22 AM PST
Why do we always revert back to meaningless discussions?
Druids have been and remain raid healers. We heal primarily through hots and these hots are very much in danger of being relegated to over heal and uselessness from straight burst healing. Even if some think that's an exaggeration the fact remains that we're at best forced to be very inefficient with our heals simply because of how they work over time in relation to other classes. We basically have 0 burst healing (excluding WM) from all of our spells.
WildGrowth - great spell if only it front loaded more of it's healing even in place of asking for it being stronger. Even if it we're made stronger it would still suffer from burst sniping.
Rejuv - great spell if only it front loaded more of it's healing. It already does this to an extent so this also wouldn't be a change in total output.
Lifebloom - fine
Nourish - Very inefficient under powered spell for it's cost. This is no longer the spell to use when low on mana because it's not even neutral to cast and suffers even more if you don't have a Rejuv up on your target. It's so bad some have even removed it from their bars. How someone can say this is fine is beyond my comprehension.
Healing Touch - Too slow a majority of the time and obviously mediocre compared to it's brother below. What's it's place in our too-kit? Using it with Nature's Swiftness only? Truthfully that's the only time it won't be beat to the punch.
ReGrowth - In it's current state it has replaced Healing Touch for a majority of players as their go to direct heal. It heals on avg as much as Healing Touch, is a guaranteed crit (with glyph) and places a LivingSeed for only 480 more mana. The only issue it has is it's cost in relation to it's new priority for direct healing.
SwiftMend - This spell needs a bit of tweaking, again not in relation to total output but in one area in terms of radius. It's very inefficient on all fights where your raid is spread out and moving. Honestly I don't see Blizzard even considering a change to this spell.
Incarnation - fine
WildMushrooms - I don't think I need to state the obvious. Sure it has it's place mostly in high end raid healing on 25 mans but only on certain fights otherwise you actually will loose considerable HPS. The best way to describe this spell is - it's the Nourish of our aoe spells. The sad thing is it's our only real burst heal. It would have been interesting to see how this would have affected us if the beta version was allowed to go live. We might still have been under monks but at the cost of neglecting other spells.
Tranqulity - Total output is fine but it's a bit slow in application. People will die if they happen to be low on HP on harder fights. When have you ever cast it when you yourself or some in your raid happened to be 50% HP and still died while casting it? I'm not making this stuff up it happened to me even with Vigil active.
Regen - Granted I'm only a casual raider (one day a week) but I've still cleared MSV, HoF and ToeS. And I can personally say that at my current gear level I have no real mana concerns. If I do experience any problems it's only trying to make up for my relegated to OH hots.
But what a lot of people seem to not understand is that even with endless mana and you blanketing your raid your heals will still be out-healed a majority of the time from burst. So, no matter how much mana you have the only time it will matter is if you're solo healing or someone is not healing your hotted targets.
So while GhostCrawler makes some poor statements concerning my class the truth is that we're far from 'fine'. He or his staff obviously don't raid on a druid or these things would be plain.
Edited by Moophious on 11/30/2012 10:25 AM PST
I stopped reading right there.
EDIT: No, if I'm being snarky, I should explain.
Monks are here now. Monks are better raid healers than we are. Resto shamans have had their raid healing toolkit much improved in recent releases with HTT and Healing Rain. Even pallies are more viable for raid healing now than they once were.
We, on the other hand, have our ground effect heal cut back to three targets, and our only multi-target heal aside from that was nerfed. We got a new AoE spell added that's not worth the time it takes to move it to your bars. The way we cover this is with the use of 3-minute CD's and spamming single-target heals.
No, we are not great raid healers anymore.
On the other hand, we got a decent damage reduction cooldown for someone other than ourselves for the very first time, we have the single best tank healing spell (Lifebloom), and now our glyphed Regrowth essentially hits for 30% extra healing on a tank since the Living Seed will always be used.
We are very good tank healers.
Everyone complains about it constantly: We don't have any AoE burst, especially in 25-mans. So in light of all of this, why insist that we're still raid healers?
Edited by Barandis on 11/30/2012 10:29 AM PST
Druids have been and remain raid healers.
I stopped typing a real response after I looked up your current and past raiding history.
EDIT: So you want to edit after my post? You couldn't think that my comment about us being raid healers means 'typically'? I am a 10 man raider - I know I heal the tanks along with the raid. But the fact remains that our heals do best healing the raid as opposed to straight tank healing. Yes we can and do heal them but we're best suited at raid healing. If I have to explain this difference to you I really don't know what to say.
I will say that you not addressing any of my points and instead latching onto a straw-man says something else all together.
Edited by Moophious on 11/30/2012 10:35 AM PST
Now respond to the edited post. Taking a few months off during Cata while you didn't neither makes me bad or you good.
This, on the other hand, does nothing to make you look good.
Now respond to the edited post. Taking a few months off during Cata while you didn't neither makes me bad or you good.Druids have been and remain raid healers.
No it doesn't and that response is just as bad as you ignoring the relevant points to make a peanut gallery remark. It's disrespectful and doesn't help this discussion.
I personally know more than a few great restos who haven't raided anything lately or have even ever raided any heroics.
My reply was in similar fashion see? Make your points about our healing - I'll read them and judge them on my experience alone - not on your history. So please address me by my arguments or at least the relevant arguments at hand okay?
Edited by Moophious on 11/30/2012 10:41 AM PST
You're right. I did exactly that. Because in that one single line you completely lost credibility as a druid healer. You came off instantly as some anachronism stuck back in LK when we were the best raid healers on the planet, and that you're trying to continue to fit the square peg in despite the fact that the hole has changed from square to round.
Put that together with the fact that you often complain about our lacks in these forums and the impression is easily conveyed that you simply haven't kept up with the times and are advocating for the old model rather than improving your healing under the new one. There are a lot of people who do that. If that doesn't fit you, then I apologize, but just as you very wrongly implied that I don't know what I'm talking about because my raid experience (on this character) looks a little thin, it's easy to peg you as wrong because of my perception of your history in these forums.
Of course our "raid heals" do better in 10-man and are very sufficient for the purpose. In 10-man the line between "tank heals" and "raid heals" is very, very blurry. The fact that you even mentioned "raid heals" in the first place gave me the impression that you're a 25-man healer. If you're "10-man raid heals" you're doing it wrong. I suspect you know this.
For the record, I did not edit my post in response to yours. I edited it because I looked at it and immediately hated it for being snarky and not offering real information as to why I was snarky. I can't stand that and I did it myself. So I changed it. That decision was made before your followup post was made.
1 Blood Elf Paladin
In complete fairness, he responded to a very similar post from me while I was in the middle of editing it to add some real content. I'd have probably done the same thing.
And then gotten angry with myself and edited it.
Regardless of semantics - I addressed our spells - each and everyone of them above. I wasn't advocating the previous rejuv spamming tree raiding healer in Wrath. I was addressing our current spell inefficiencies regardless of where those spells go to in a raid.
The argument that we can heal just as efficiently as say a pally or disc on a tank is absurd. Sorry our tool-kit doesn't compare there nor am I advocating that it should. I am happy in my role.
It's not even an argument about whether we are raid healers or tank healers - it's about how those spells get applied in a raid. Our spells are designed more around raid healing. That's not an hypothesis on my part.
I speak about what I see as real problems and because many people keep saying 'we're fine' and frankly that isn't true. We're not fine and you are certainly welcome to disagree with that. You posting in threads saying we're fine is no different than me posting that we're not. That doesn't mean we need to quibble about silly non relevant things like raid roles.
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