Resto druid pve

100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17675
12/15/2012 08:53 PMPosted by Fangthorn
Translation: I can't defend my arguments.


Oh I can, but every time I argue with you, it never ends with a budge. You're simply too close minded and only look at balance by your own class instead of the whole picture, and you'll bring in other classes if it only supports your argument.

No point to argue with a wall.
100 Worgen Druid
12675
It was a very specific point, and I easily proved you wrong. You changed the argument, and still do not even aknowledge the fact the two top US guilds do not use druids, including an "end boss" which fits your "definition".

You then continue to filibuster by attacking me personally.

And I am the wall.. ok?

Why are you even in these threads? Your posts have devolved into a lazy mess, and consist of generalizations capped by lame emotes. Go /sipyourcoolaid somewhere you can be constructive, or at least make sense?
Edited by Fangthorn on 12/15/2012 9:12 PM PST
100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17675
It was a very specific point, and I easily proved you wrong. You changed the argument, and still do not even knowledge the fact the two top US guilds do not use druids, including an "end boss" which fits your "definition".

You then continue to filibuster by attacking me personally.


>US

Let's completely ignore EU to support our arguments, even though they killed it in the allotted time faster than US. You can't just look at one region, Druids were being brought to top/world first kills throughout the tier. This means that they bring something of value to the raid, not sure why you're arguing it.

Also I thought I told you and your buddies to stop twisting my words.
Edited by Sensations on 12/15/2012 9:15 PM PST
100 Worgen Druid
12675
I actually gave props to Method. I even called out their exact WF count, 5/16. Read much? Owld is the druid, and has been for a long time. Nagura is right there with him.

Anyway, your argument has devolved into nothing better than a MMO champ troll thread on EU vs. US world firsts, Goodbye.
Edited by Fangthorn on 12/15/2012 9:25 PM PST
100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17675
I actually gave props to Method. I even called out their exact WF count, 5/16. Read much? Owld is the druid, and has been for a long time. Nagura is right there with him.

Anyway, your argument has devolved into nothing better than a MMO champ troll thread on EU vs. US world firsts, Goodbye.


Really? You're the one who brought up a world first kill by two us guilds to support your argument against what I had said earlier and my argument has devolved into such even though I didn't bash anyone just pointed out a flaw in your argument after you instigated me to answer? Ok bro.
Edited by Sensations on 12/15/2012 9:30 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
0
12/15/2012 09:19 PMPosted by Fangthorn
Anyway, your argument has devolved into nothing better than a MMO champ troll thread on EU vs. US world firsts, Goodbye.


Wow... At least put some thought into your cop-outs.
85 Night Elf Druid
0
12/15/2012 08:59 PMPosted by Stormingire
What I'm saying is that if you look at things without including the specs that are considered OP you can judge more accurately whether or not it's the spec is undertuned or actually in-line with the "balanced" specs.


But if you're excluding specs that are OP, you also have to exclude specs that are UP, and since the goal is to isolate those specs that are "balanced" you should also exclude specs that have blatant mechanical flaws.

It's a nonsensical notion to begin with...

12/15/2012 08:59 PMPosted by Stormingire
Again this is all with reference to the GC quote.


... and it's the reason GC's quote is laughably ignorant. I realize you're using his quote as a pretext for your argument, but no amount of perspective can change the fact that it's an asinine statement, and one the lead developer shouldn't be making given all of the evidence in front of him.

EDIT: Dammit... double post :(
Edited by Anarri on 12/15/2012 11:21 PM PST
100 Worgen Druid
12675
Anyway, your argument has devolved into nothing better than a MMO champ troll thread on EU vs. US world firsts, Goodbye.


Wow... At least put some thought into your cop-outs.


You have to be kidding.

Arguing about "who got a real World First" between the EU and US ranks up there as one of the stupidest arguments that WoW players have. You actually expect me to prove the validity of Wowprogress? Yeh...

He has yet to acknowledge that 2/3 of the top 25 man guilds have 0 resto druids, which was during 10/16 world firsts. His original point was that druids were brought to more world firsts than any other class than disc, which I proved to be completely false. The facts are simply there, 10 of 16 fights, not one Druid. End of discussion.

Sorry Anarri, I don't have quite your tolerance for letting myself completely ruin threads. I know you could care less about having three page pointless discussions with people, but I do.
Edited by Fangthorn on 12/16/2012 10:24 AM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
0
You have to be kidding.

Arguing about "who got a real World First" between the EU and US ranks up there as one of the stupidest arguments that WoW players have.


I agree, but that isn't the argument at all. Sensations has distinguished between EU and US in exactly one post in the past three pages, and reducing his argument to "an MMO champ troll thread on EU vs. US world firsts" is the stupidest, most obviously desperate cop-out I've ever seen in two and a half years on these forums.

You have to consider more than just the evidence that caters to your argument, Fangthorn.

12/16/2012 10:12 AMPosted by Fangthorn
Sorry Anarri, I don't have quite your tolerance for letting myself completely ruin threads. I know you could care less about having three page pointless discussions with people, but I do.


And yet you do it anyways.

Contrary to what you've led yourself to believe, Sensation's argument is actually relevant.
Edited by Anarri on 12/16/2012 11:33 AM PST
100 Worgen Druid
12675
Have you even read the thread or posts? Do you need some coffee?

I was only ever discussing this SINGLE claim:

Not to mention guess which healer got brought to world first kills THIS TIER more than any other healer except disc priest? That's right broseph..


Which I showed to be categorically false. My only interest were the facts, which are quite clear. www.wowprogress.com

Stop derailing the thread with this pointless discussion, please.
Edited by Fangthorn on 12/16/2012 11:39 AM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
0
12/16/2012 11:26 AMPosted by Fangthorn
Which I showed to be categorically false.


I don't disagree, but you fail to see the bigger picture, which is that druids were present in world firsts. You act as though a single inaccuracy renders the entire argument invalid, and it doesn't. That's called argumentum ad logicam, and it's a formal fallacy.

Stop derailing the thread with this stupid and pointless discussion please.


Don't get pissy because I called you out on a horrible attempt to distance yourself from a losing battle. It isn't pointless, Fangthorn, and it wasn't a derailment.

12/16/2012 11:26 AMPosted by Fangthorn
I was only ever discussing this SINGLE claim:


Since you went back and bolded it, I'll point out that there's never any merit in discussing a SINGLE claim outside the context of the larger discussion.

The larger discussion, in this case, is the viability of druids in current content. It always has been, and you know that.
Edited by Anarri on 12/16/2012 11:41 AM PST
100 Worgen Druid
12675
I have no obligation to get into every straw-man argument someone goes on a tangent with.

First it was "world Firsts", then "only End Bosses", then "only end bosses in EU", seriously Annari, did you even read his posts?
Edited by Fangthorn on 12/16/2012 11:49 AM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
0
Fine, Fangthorn, call it a straw man and go on your way. I hope you enjoy derailing every druid thread you enter with purely semantic arguments. In the end it's just another desperate cop-out.

12/16/2012 11:46 AMPosted by Fangthorn
First it was "world Firsts", then "only End Bosses", then "only end bosses in EU", seriously Annari, did you even read his posts?


This is your personal bias getting the better of you. Go back and read the arguments again, but this time being cognizant of the context behind the arguments.
Edited by Anarri on 12/16/2012 11:53 AM PST
100 Worgen Druid
12675
You think I should spend my time arguing with someone like that?

I have never said druids are not viable, I have said we are OK repeatedly, just need some tweaks and buffs to WM.

I have been in progression all tier as a druid. I am killing HM Empress tonight as a druid... obviously we are not trash. You say I should be aware of the context and "larger argument", well I have the same expectation of you, I have never claimed the sky was falling.

So arguing about druids being brought to progression is a bit silly when I am in fact one of those druids, don't you think?'

Seriously...
85 Night Elf Druid
0
12/16/2012 11:58 AMPosted by Fangthorn
I have never claimed the sky was falling.


Maybe not explicitly, but your tone screams it in every post you write. If you were honestly doing nothing more than a fact check, why did you word your posts so strongly?

So arguing about druids being brought to progression is a bit silly when I am in fact one of those druids, don't you think?'

Seriously...


You're dangerously close to the progression card, Fangthorn. We've done this dance before, you know that no one cares how progressed you are.
90 Worgen Druid
13055
Waaaaay too many pages of stuff to read.

I cannot speak for everybody, but here are my two cents. I dual spec feral/resto, and I am proud of what I can do - at my best, I am top of heals and low on overhealing, whereas at my worst, I am bottom heals and top of overhealing. I've found it does depend on the makeup of other healers. I do LFR and Sha raids (Which means I'm not qualified to speak for regular 10 man and 25 man raiding), but here is what I have noticed.

Mana regen - I pop Innervate at around 75-80% of mana, and I use my Trinket (+3500 spirit) practically on cooldown. However, during the longer fights, and when people are being idiots, I find myself spending *Far too long* completely OOM with my trinket and Innervate on cooldown, and I take a look at Priests, Shamans, Paladins and see that they may have LOW mana, but generally FAR MORE than me. Percentages? Definitely 10-50% more mana than me. They are continuing to heal the raid, while I spend those painful seconds, or minutes unable to do squit, waiting for my cooldowns, or for regular mana regen.

I know resto druids may attack me for my spirit, but given my 479 ilevel, I think I have decent spirit. I am *Trying* to raise it, gemming for spirit, reforging into spirit, but there's only so much I can do (6868 spirit, 10 463 with trinket)

Overhealing: Managed well, I can be top on effective heals and low on overhealing. It's an extremely difficult process, and requires far more brainpower compared to other healing classes I think (I THINK). To avoid overhealing, I generally wait for people's health bars to fall to quarter or half health, where I know the other healers won't be able to heal all of it in one go, before healing. Dangerous? but conserves mana and avoids huge overhealing numbers.

Wild Mushrooms: I have used them to some extent, but not seeing people's health bars budge, by even a tiny bit is extremely discouraging. I may place them down before the raid, but I ain't using them during the raid unless I'm fooling around.

Tranquility: Unhappy with the state of tranquility - mainly because we only heal the 5 members with the lowest health. It hardly does squit. Usually when I am forced to use tranquility, I MUST use a WG, rejuv + SM immediately after to (barely) make up for what Tranquility didn't do.

_________________________

Well, that's my two cents. Go on, blast me all you want because I don't (can't because of RL situation) do regular 10man/25 man raiding. I am of serious thought that resto druids need a look at, particularly with mana regen. I propose either reduced Innervate CD, or Increased Innervate mana regen.

I'm proud of being a resto healer, even with all the challenges resto druids are facing. However, it is becoming increasingly difficult to hold my head up high, since the developers think we're 'fine', when we are NOT.

Edited for Grammar.
Edited by Kiemah on 12/16/2012 5:37 PM PST
90 Tauren Druid
11420
I think the bulk of the druid toolkit is fine, I love how our spells truly work together rather than just being a bunch of random stuff we throw at players to keep them alive.

That said we do have some niches where our kit needs some additions or tweaks.

Ideas.

Nourish: This spell used to fill an important niche, it gave us a low-cost way to keep harmony up and reroll our lb. Since it no longer really has a place, I think it could be reworked into an instant cast, moderate sized, fairly high cost spell. This fills a place that is lacking when it comes to large unpredictable damage hits.

Mushrooms. They're new, they work okay in some situations but overall just don't seem as useful as they could be. I'd like to see them have more function. Perhaps if rather than each shroom doing a set amount of healing they could instead share one amount of potential healing. This means you could use one gcd to place one on the ground and bloom it and it would do the same as if right now you placed all 3 shrooms in one spot and bloomed them low-radius low-mid healing (perhaps a small boost?) super low cost. If you placed 2 shrooms it would split the heal between the radius of each shroom, 3 splits the healing 3 ways. Another idea would be rather than placing shrooms on the ground they could be placed on people instead and would bloom around that person (perhaps rename them seeds? Not sure I want a fungus on me but whatever :P)

New cooldown. I think theres room in the druids kit for a cooldown to boost different forms of healing. I'd modify the level 75 talents
.
Disorienting roar, currently disorients enemies within 10 yards for 3 sec. I'd add that it increases dot damage and the amount healed by hots on you and allies within 20 yards for 30 sec (all these would probably need to be modified to be equivalent, I am not doing the maths!) Basic boost to what we do best or a good cd for druid dps or pvpers.

Ursol's Vortex, currently slows enemies within 8 yards of placement for 50%. I'd add that it removes the cooldown from wild growth, starfire, some guardian spell, and allows ferocious bite to be used without combo points for 30 seconds. Allowing wild growth spam!

Mighty Bash. Stuns target for 5 sec. I'd add that it boosts your single target direct healing and damage by X% for 30 sec. May need to be unable to be used during Incarnation. Would be hella useful in pvp when being focused by only 1 person or for pve encounters with sudden unexpected damage phases where we wouldn't have the mana to pre-hot everyone.

Edit: On the talents bit, that may be too powerful, I started out adding only the healing changes then realized that it wouldn't be too attractive for dps but either way. Adding to that tier of talents since it is pretty much totally useless for dps or healers currently in PvE to add a variety of cooldowns that would each fill a niche depending on the fight seems a good idea to me.
Edited by Feyanna on 12/16/2012 6:57 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
10550
12/16/2012 04:59 PMPosted by Anarri
You're dangerously close to the progression card, Fangthorn. We've done this dance before, you know that no one cares how progressed you are.


I think you're missing the point of what he's getting at.

We're being brought on progression content for a reason whether it be for utility or our sparkling personalities. We're a viable choice as a healer, but being brought along on progression fights doesn't necessarily equate to us being "fine". That's a case of us filling a particular niche needed for that particular boss fight.

Seriously, everyone here knows the issues resto druids have, particularly on 25 man. I'm not sure why something like this is even an argument.

12/16/2012 05:30 PMPosted by Kiemah
Usually when I am forced to use tranquility, I MUST use a WG, rejuv + SM immediately after to (barely) make up for what Tranquility didn't do.


If you're forced to do the above, then either your raid has done something horribly wrong or your other healers aren't pulling their weight. Unfortunately, both of these things happen frequently in LFR. It's a sign of the raid being a failure and not a failure on Tranq's part. Tranq is not meant to be the sole savior of your entire raid.

12/16/2012 06:14 PMPosted by Feyanna
Another idea would be rather than placing shrooms on the ground they could be placed on people instead and would bloom around that person


I'd certainly be on board with this idea.
Edited by Sherbear on 12/17/2012 3:27 AM PST
About the Top guild kills discussion:

Sorry to break it for you, but druids were only used on Sha of Fear, and one or another fight that needed extra healers. (And in none they shined)
The entire progress was made using Boomkins instead of resto druids.

If you had made your research, instead of just looking at wowprogress, you would notice that all kill shots are full of boomkins, and that they were using booking gear the entire progress on armory.

In specific fights where more healers were needed, they used the geared boomkins as healers, mainly because some of those boomkins players were in fact great healer players.
They were bringing the player and the gear, not the class.

They already said that they replaced all core resto druids for other healers because druids were sucking at heroic progression fights because they could not push enough HPS, and had mana problems.

They already said that without replenishment, or some other source of mana, druids were inefficient in comparison to other healers.
We were in an acceptable spot that the very start of MSV, but as gear progress we declined because other healers mana efficiency improves more then ours.

All our mana regens mechanics are fixated, LB procs will barely increase with gear, innervate will not. Compare to other healers and you will see a difference.
We lack good raid cd's that are so necessary in heroic progression, and we lack the Burst HPS necessary to bring the raid back to full.

People that says we are viable are blind. Yes we can complete the raid in heroic with a druid, but we can also do that without flask and food... or using only sub-par dps classes.
Why we stack mages, rogues... etc...? Because they perform better, and will reduce the amount of tries needed to kill the boss.
It works the same for healers. But right now the state of druids are worse then in Wrath or in Cataclysm. Even at DS druids were somewhat lacking but had enough to be great on some specific fights, and be enough to be chosen by top cores because of the players.

Right now, either go boomkin, or leave. And boomkin is a weak dps... lol.
Being told that we are fine should be the point were we start mass rerolling to other classes.

I know i already started gearing my paladin. Wish i could keep my druid, its a very fun class to play but playing a subpar class is not how i wish to play wow.
Edited by Sàtàn on 12/17/2012 4:33 AM PST
90 Troll Druid
3505
About the Top guild kills discussion:

Sorry to break it for you, but druids were only used on Sha of Fear, and one or another fight that needed extra healers. (And in none they shined)
The entire progress was made using Boomkins instead of resto druids.

If you had made your research, instead of just looking at wowprogress, you would notice that all kill shots are full of boomkins, and that they were using booking gear the entire progress on armory.

In specific fights where more healers were needed, they used the geared boomkins as healers, mainly because some of those boomkins players were in fact great healer players.
They were bringing the player and the gear, not the class.

They already said that they replaced all core resto druids for other healers because druids were sucking at heroic progression fights because they could not push enough HPS, and had mana problems.

They already said that without replenishment, or some other source of mana, druids were inefficient in comparison to other healers.
We were in an acceptable spot that the very start of MSV, but as gear progress we declined because other healers mana efficiency improves more then ours.

All our mana regens mechanics are fixated, LB procs will barely increase with gear, innervate will not. Compare to other healers and you will see a difference.
We lack good raid cd's that are so necessary in heroic progression, and we lack the Burst HPS necessary to bring the raid back to full.

People that says we are viable are blind. Yes we can complete the raid in heroic with a druid, but we can also do that without flask and food... or using only sub-par dps classes.
Why we stack mages, rogues... etc...? Because they perform better, and will reduce the amount of tries needed to kill the boss.
It works the same for healers. But right now the state of druids are worse then in Wrath or in Cataclysm. Even at DS druids were somewhat lacking but had enough to be great on some specific fights, and be enough to be chosen by top cores because of the players.

Right now, either go boomkin, or leave. And boomkin is a weak dps... lol.
Being told that we are fine should be the point were we start mass rerolling to other classes.

I know i already started gearing my paladin. Wish i could keep my druid, its a very fun class to play but playing a subpar class is not how i wish to play wow.


Very good post. Right on the money.
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