Resto druid pve

90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
I also don't understand the issue with overhealing. Rdruids have been known to have high overhealing from the start of time, due to the nature of how we heal. Our issue isn't overhealing or "getting sniped", it's that we have nothing else in our set of tools to heal the raid effectively/efficiently outside of WG. Rejuv costs so damn much, we can't spread it around nearly as much as we need to (fact of the matter is since this is our primary heal for single target and raidwide, we technically do have to blanket it, appropriately). WM was most likely intended to fill this small gap as a "burst-like" heal that was efficient, but it's so lackluster that a lot of people aren't even using them.
1 Gnome Warlock
0
Clearly we are lagging behind and with other classes such as pallys there's no way to not have all your heals healed over with steady burst heals. It's a fact.

For those who say otherwise clearly aren't raid healing with such classes. Even with my 2-pc and being able to have a limited rejuv blanket I can't even compare.

Every single heal I do gets over healed by either instant single healing or instant burst aoe healing while my slow hots simply go into OH and I am left behind on logs.

And don't for a minute think that Tranq will always save you even if you cast it in tree or with vigil. You best hope you're 100% or you most likely will die casting it on certain fights.

Anyways I could care less what people say - whether we're 'fine' or only need help in 25 mans. Fact of the matter is regardless what raid size and all else being equal we'll always be second.

Does this mean we can't heal any encounter? Nope, but unless your buddy healer is Oom or simply mediocre you will 99% of the time be last on logs.


There's probably a select few fights where not waiting for HoTs to tick would be beneficial. Sounds like there is a team problem more than a class problem in certain cases. I didn't see druids in T12 crying about getting sniped, because you guys were top of the meters but the second you're not you cry about getting sniped, do you not see the problem?

If you care so much about your mechanics than fight for their change, not only when you're not #1 which is all I've been seeing a lot of.


You are such a troll.

Druids have been dead last every TIER post-Wrath EXCEPT T12. So that's dead last progression for T11 T13 T14 so far.

And that was simply a perfect storm of

-Mastery Change
-2 set bonus being REALLY good for druids
-Along with 2 set, obtaining enough intellect that mana was no longer a real issue
-Obtaining new WG haste breakpoint
-Demands of the raid limited other healers while leaving Druids mostly unaffected

And even then Druids were sat on Baleroc. Or forced DPS.

The amount of whining that OTHER healers do about Druids is what is hilarious and far more of an issue.
100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440


There's probably a select few fights where not waiting for HoTs to tick would be beneficial. Sounds like there is a team problem more than a class problem in certain cases. I didn't see druids in T12 crying about getting sniped, because you guys were top of the meters but the second you're not you cry about getting sniped, do you not see the problem?

If you care so much about your mechanics than fight for their change, not only when you're not #1 which is all I've been seeing a lot of.


You are such a troll.

Druids have been dead last every TIER post-Wrath EXCEPT T12. So that's dead last progression for T11 T13 T14 so far.

And that was simply a perfect storm of

-Mastery Change
-2 set bonus being REALLY good for druids
-Along with 2 set, obtaining enough intellect that mana was no longer a real issue
-Obtaining new WG haste breakpoint
-Demands of the raid limited other healers while leaving Druids mostly unaffected

And even then Druids were sat on Baleroc. Or forced DPS.

The amount of whining that OTHER healers do about Druids is what is hilarious and far more of an issue.


Dead last in what sense? Does dead last mean something is wrong, someone is going to always have to be last?

You call me a troll, yet you make it sound like the skies of hell are crashing down. I wouldn't call Druids dead last in T13, I wouldn't call Druids dead last in T14, I wouldn't call Druids dead last in t11. So explain to me this term, "Dead last."

Not to mention guess which healer got brought to world first kills THIS TIER more than any other healer except disc priest? That's right broseph. You can advocate for your changes that are needed, every class needs them and every class has a right to but using hyperbole and the sky is falling drama won't help.
Edited by Sensations on 12/12/2012 1:58 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
Is it difficult being such a wretched person? One would think it would start to rot you a bit.


Is it difficult having a sense of humour?

cat is for fite

cat fite trolls

I also remember druids being absolutely ridiculous during t11, when progression mattered and before they got nerfed.

Even after, they were still not dead last.
Remember Shaman circa T11.
I weep.

World first didn't use?! MY CASUAL GUILD CANNOT USE EITHER. BROKEN.

Oh wait.. World first DID use, same goes for disc priest. >.> NOT GOOD SORRY.

I'm going to give you the typical GC response:
"Maybe the problem isn't the class."
Edited by Advanced on 12/12/2012 1:55 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
12/12/2012 01:39 PMPosted by Eleäzaras
Druids have been dead last every TIER post-Wrath EXCEPT T12. So that's dead last progression for T11 T13 T14 so far.


Shamans dead last in 10 man heroic Druids ahead of last by average of 3000hps

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/all/14/30/default/#fo00000

Druids last in 25 heroic by an average of 800hps

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/30/default/#fo00000

edit: fix shrooms noah
Edited by Sadiemay on 12/12/2012 1:59 PM PST
100 Worgen Druid
12220
So lets get this back on topic.

edit: fix shrooms noah


This.

Working on H. Empress is really bringing this hole in our toolkit right back to the forefront. Changing WM to substantial burst on a 30 second cooldown would be awesome. If they were strong enough to even consider splitting between range/melee etc..

Only in my dreams!
Edited by Fangthorn on 12/12/2012 11:48 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
10550
Druids have been dead last every TIER post-Wrath EXCEPT T12. So that's dead last progression for T11 T13 T14 so far.


What are you talking about?

This shouldn't even be about who is last or first on the lolmeters.

It's about QoL, which other healers need help with as well. The gaping hole in our toolkit for raid healing and mana regen are the issues. Your perception of being "dead last" is merely a symptom of an issue and not the issue itself. People need to stop behaving as if the meter is the end-all-be-all of healing.

I started healing on this druid at the end of BC and this is the first tier that I have ever felt we were lacking in some way. Lowering the mana cost of Rejuv and tweaking Innervate in some way would only be a bandaid fix. Blizzard is good at those though, eh?
Edited by Sherbear on 12/13/2012 2:54 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
12/12/2012 01:39 PMPosted by Fleurs
I also don't understand the issue with overhealing. Rdruids have been known to have high overhealing from the start of time, due to the nature of how we heal. Our issue isn't overhealing or "getting sniped", it's that we have nothing else in our set of tools to heal the raid effectively/efficiently outside of WG. Rejuv costs so damn much, we can't spread it around nearly as much as we need to (fact of the matter is since this is our primary heal for single target and raidwide, we technically do have to blanket it, appropriately). WM was most likely intended to fill this small gap as a "burst-like" heal that was efficient, but it's so lackluster that a lot of people aren't even using them.


I'm just going to quote this again and hope people actually pay attention as opposed to sniping at one another.

I know things have gotten heated, I know that people have been frustrated (and, let's be honest, scared to an extent that blizzard won't listen, and upset that they can't seem to work past what they see as limitations of their class; "I am holding my raid back" is a horrible thing to feel) and snippy, but as long as we keep going round and around about who is the "bigger troll," nothing is going to get done.

We can quibble about numbers until the cows come home, but there is a mechanical issue here. No class should be shackled to a single spell to the extent that Resto Druids currently are. The Devs say they don't want RDruids HoT blanketing, but have failed to provide RDruids with a viable alternative. This needs to be addressed.
100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440
12/13/2012 03:02 AMPosted by Tiriél
I also don't understand the issue with overhealing. Rdruids have been known to have high overhealing from the start of time, due to the nature of how we heal. Our issue isn't overhealing or "getting sniped", it's that we have nothing else in our set of tools to heal the raid effectively/efficiently outside of WG. Rejuv costs so damn much, we can't spread it around nearly as much as we need to (fact of the matter is since this is our primary heal for single target and raidwide, we technically do have to blanket it, appropriately). WM was most likely intended to fill this small gap as a "burst-like" heal that was efficient, but it's so lackluster that a lot of people aren't even using them.


I'm just going to quote this again and hope people actually pay attention as opposed to sniping at one another.

I know things have gotten heated, I know that people have been frustrated (and, let's be honest, scared to an extent that blizzard won't listen, and upset that they can't seem to work past what they see as limitations of their class; "I am holding my raid back" is a horrible thing to feel) and snippy, but as long as we keep going round and around about who is the "bigger troll," nothing is going to get done.

We can quibble about numbers until the cows come home, but there is a mechanical issue here. No class should be shackled to a single spell to the extent that Resto Druids currently are. The Devs say they don't want RDruids HoT blanketing, but have failed to provide RDruids with a viable alternative. This needs to be addressed.


Inb4 rejuv mana cost decreased and healing increased, /sitsbackandsipscoolaid
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
12/13/2012 03:14 AMPosted by Sensations
Inb4 rejuv mana cost decreased and healing increased, /sitsbackandsipscoolaid


Sensations, MUST YOU DESTROY MY DREAMS OF ACTUAL MECHANICAL FIXES?

...nevermind.

I'll just go back to casting nothing but effing PoH over here. WOOO POH UNTIL MY EYES BLEED...

*weeps*
90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
I'll just go back to casting nothing but effing PoH over here. WOOO POH UNTIL MY EYES BLEED...


*pat pat* there there. Eventually it'll burn itself into your computer screen and everything you EVER do online will involve a PoH cast.
100 Worgen Druid
12220
Just allowing druids to cast more rejuvs is not going to fix anything. Straight throughput has never been the main issue.

The main problem has always been burst healing and/or lack of mitigation. A mechanical change regarding that hole in our toolkit has been a request to the devs from druids since T10. That is when the issue first slapped us in the face, when we were in fact the strongest healing class, and could roll rejuvs on two raids if we wanted to. All that potential throughput did not matter on the most important fight of the WOTLK expansion when it came to HLK.

Anyway, I think people just forget the context. This request has been on the table for years now, through both the high and low points on the "meters". And even in the short term, the druid community has been literally begging for a fix to mushrooms. I personally have spent 6 months and probably 50-100 posts in forums/twitter on the topic. We are met with only vague responses that honestly make little sense. What the hell is "not rotational" anyway, if not synonymous with "bad" when the spell has no significant CD to start with...

So I am sorry if you are late to the party, but this is not some new issue. The only reason throughput is coming up IMO is that it feels like druids have given up on anything else happening. The only area the blizzard has ever made significant changes is in throughput. It is a virtual see-saw when it comes to druids, up and down, never fixing the real problems. At one point it felt like this was their intention, leave us lacking in some qualitative areas, but strong in throughput to compensate:

GC on patch 4.2: Resto druids “win” healing meters now in part because their raid cooldown, Tranquility, shows up as healing.


So at that time (T12) many druids just resigned to the fact this may be the ultimate goal for the class. We are going to always lack in certain mechanical areas, but compensate with strong HPS. This was coming right out of T11 when we really struggled and fights like Chimearon rubbed salt in the HLK wounds, where again, burst healing and mitigation was critical.

Fast forward to 5.1 and we are essentially the same healer as the one that was dropped for HLK, Chimearon, and the same one as from GC's quote, except now we are last in terms of throughput. So what gives GC? When we are last on the "meters" how do other classes cd's that do not show up as healing end up winning? So the problem now is two-fold, not only do we have issues with gaps in our toolkit, specifically continued lack of burst and/or mitigation, but we also no longer have at least moderately high throughput to somewhat overcome it.

So for those of you that think we have not been arguing mechanics, all I have to say, is where have you been? Druids have been arguing lack of mitigation and burst for years, whether at the top OR bottom of the "meters". We still are, every thread regarding druids on this forums are filled with requests for changes to mushrooms.

But after years of those requests falling on deaf ears, and the developer direction seeingly to be for the spec to be centered on sustained throughput, you end up with much of what these threads are about. Druids are confused. Are we, or are we not a throughput centered class? Because if we are, then we need to actually be competitive in that area...

But don't make it sound like druids have not argued mechanics. They have for years, and still do in every thread.
Edited by Fangthorn on 12/13/2012 10:08 AM PST
92 Troll Druid
18530
Just allowing druids to cast more rejuvs is not going to fix anything. Straight throughput has never been the main issue.

The main problem has always been burst healing and/or lack of mitigation. A mechanical change regarding that hole in our toolkit has been a request to the devs from druids since T10. That is when the issue first slapped us in the face, when we were in fact the strongest healing class, and could roll rejuvs on two raids if we wanted to. All that potential throughput did not matter on the most important fight of the WOTLK expansion when it came to HLK.

Anyway, I think people just forget the context. This request has been on the table for years now, through both the high and low points on the "meters". And even in the short term, the druid community has been literally begging for a fix to mushrooms. I personally have spent 6 months and probably 50-100 posts in forums/twitter on the topic. We are met with only vague responses that honestly make little sense. What the hell is "not rotational" anyway, if not synonymous with "bad" when the spell has no significant CD to start with...

So I am sorry if you are late to the party, but this is not some new issue. The only reason throughput is coming up IMO is that it feels like druids have given up on anything else happening. The only area the blizzard has ever made significant changes is in throughput. It is a virtual see-saw when it comes to druids, up and down, never fixing the real problems. At one point it felt like this was their intention, leave us lacking in some qualitative areas, but strong in throughput to compensate:

GC on patch 4.2: Resto druids “win” healing meters now in part because their raid cooldown, Tranquility, shows up as healing.


So at that time (T12) many druids just resigned to the fact this may be the ultimate goal for the class. We are going to always lack in certain mechanical areas, but compensate with strong HPS. This was coming right out of T11 when we really struggled and fights like Chimearon rubbed salt in the HLK wounds, where again, burst healing and mitigation was critical.

Fast forward to 5.1 and we are essentially the same healer as the one that was dropped for HLK, Chimearon, and the same one as from GC's quote, except now we are last in terms of throughput. So what gives GC? When we are last on the "meters" how do other classes cd's that do not show up as healing end up winning? So the problem now is two-fold, not only do we have issues with gaps in our toolkit, specifically continued lack of burst and/or mitigation, but we also no longer have at least moderately high throughput to somewhat overcome it.

So for those of you that think we have not been arguing mechanics, all I have to say, is where have you been? Druids have been arguing lack of mitigation and burst for years, whether at the top OR bottom of the "meters". We still are, every thread regarding druids on this forums are filled with requests for changes to mushrooms.

But after years of those requests falling on deaf ears, and the developer direction seeingly to be for the spec to be centered on sustained throughput, you end up with much of what these threads are about. Druids are confused. Are we, or are we not a throughput centered class? Because if we are, then we need to actually be competitive in that area...

But don't make it sound like druids have not argued mechanics. They have for years, and still do in every thread.


Everything here.

And what separates us from being an under performing healing spec relative to the other healing specs in the game right now is that our tier bonuses are -arguably- the best tier bonuses out of all of them.

The elephant in the room is that if there's another Dragon Soul raid, without any assistance from buffs or tier bonuses, resto druids will be in a much, much worse position than where we were in Dragon Soul progression.

I'm not too worried about this tier, there are fights where having a Resto Druid was beneficial. I am worried about the possibility of there being another Dragon Soul, or fights where you're mostly stacked, and we have nothing to compensate the damage for it.

I'm really hoping Mushrooms gets reworked by next tier.
Edited by Rejuvenate on 12/13/2012 4:29 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
0
12/13/2012 09:58 AMPosted by Fangthorn
The main problem has always been burst healing and/or lack of mitigation


I die a little inside every time I read this :(
100 Worgen Druid
12220
12/13/2012 06:44 PMPosted by Anarri
The main problem has always been burst healing and/or lack of mitigation


I die a little inside every time I read this :(


Why is that?
85 Night Elf Druid
0
It's nothing to do with your arguments or anyone else's, and I mean that sincerely. I just can't stand how much healer balance is restricted by encounter design, and I take serious issue both with the direction WoW's encounter design has been going and with the direction many of the healing specs have been going.
Edited by Anarri on 12/13/2012 7:37 PM PST
90 Troll Druid
11195
12/12/2012 01:41 PMPosted by Sensations
Not to mention guess which healer got brought to world first kills THIS TIER more than any other healer except disc priest?


You know I know your a good healer but I wonder what your buddy healer would think if you were not a shaman but a pally 2 healing fights?

The only fights I have a fighting chance against is Amber in HoF and Elegon and perhaps Sha in Terrace.

Druids cannot compete against the like of Illuminated Healing Mastery buff from pallys where we both have equal time stacked. It's straight fact. Top that with Eternal Flame and Light of dawn and all my hots become meaningless.

And I can literally spam rejuv on all 10 players and still be 10k behind the pally on top of spamming RG on tank on some pulls.

Sure this is only dealing with one other class but the same argument can be made for disc healing with a druid. WIth a shaman I would at least have some type of chance to not be out classes at every turn regardless of what I do.

When you say that top guilds took druids along this was mostly in 25 mans and they certainly don't compare to these two classes on a majority of fights. Fights such as WILL they are used to entangle adds and Stampeding Roar on others but it's not because of their throughput.
100 Worgen Druid
12220
Well he is just flat out wrong, I pretty much ignore what he has to say anymore (their guild even has their tank in here trolling now), but since you quoted it:

Blood Legion and Vodka did not use Resto Druids on ANY of their progression kills, and they have over half of the world first kills this tier (I think 10/16).

In general, most guilds have used one druid at most, many have mirrored BL and Vodka, using none on quite a few fights. The one big exception was Method, props to them, but that was only 5/16 fights.

Considering that 10/16 of the world first kills this tier did not even have a resto druid in the raid it makes his point categorically false. Even if you try and lump Paragon into it, which would be pointless since no one is arguing 10-mans, it would still be impossible for a spec that missed at half (then it goes to 8/16) of the world first kills to somehow be "taken to more than any other but disc".
Edited by Fangthorn on 12/14/2012 5:48 PM PST
100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440
Fights such as WILL they are used to entangle adds and Stampeding Roar on others but it's not because of their throughput.


Utility.


Blood Legion and Vodka did not use Resto Druids on ANY of their progression kills, and they have over half of the world first kills this tier (I think 10/16).


Only world first that truly matter are end bosses.
Edited by Sensations on 12/14/2012 7:34 PM PST
100 Night Elf Druid
5895
12/13/2012 03:14 AMPosted by Sensations
Inb4 rejuv mana cost decreased and healing increased, /sitsbackandsipscoolaid


Er, I thought rejuv spam was the *problem*? How can the solution be to have more of the problem?

I just can't stand how much healer balance is restricted by encounter design, and I take serious issue both with the direction WoW's encounter design has been going and with the direction many of the healing specs have been going.


I'm worried about this too. I haven't gotten to raids yet (having limited playtime), but I thought cata and beyond were supposed to have health pools big enough that people wouldn't expect to be sitting at 100% health all the time for fear of being oneshotted. But all the talk about overhealing and wasted hot ticks makes it sound like people are, in fact, sitting on 100% health all the time; either healers are just being dumb and wasting mana healing people to 100% even when they already have hots on them, or it's not dumb because people really *need* to sit at 100% all the time to survive spike damage. And if it's the latter, then the encounter design is just openly hostile to hots (and thus to druids), there's no two ways about it.

I even posted a suggestion in another thread for converting hot ticks into a stacking shield when the target was at 100%. But is it really necessary for every healer to have a shield mechanic so that everyone in the raid can sit at OVER 100% health all the time? That's crazy. And it would just lead healers to start competing for their shield priority, so that the right healer can take credit on the meters for preventing the damage when it actually does show up.
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]