@alliance TB

Night elf hunter #4321.


Edited for clarity.
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12/01/2012 05:32 PMPosted by Ashishishe
Wow. I tip my hat to you, Malk. You're quite right, and this is what good leadership looks like.


Thanks Ashishishe (and Ahi), that's what we aspire to anyway. We don't always succeed to the level of our hopes and aspirations, but it's the pursuit that defines us not the finish line. Would love to chat with you in-game sometime if you're interested in our culture and environment here in Thundering Hammer. Roll up a Feathermoon alt and /whisper me sometime.

And Welda - that's actually a good question, and it deserves a straightforward, non-trolling answer.

For me success in our goals is two-fold: My personal metric is to measure how many people I can help be more successful and fulfilled as members of Horde PvP. If my recruitment, encouragement and networking can catapult others to higher levels of achievement than they've managed to earn before then that is success in my book. The second metric is in the culture we create as an organization on our faction and on our server. If we can build a community where the tight personal relationships and inter-guild cooperation that defined Horde play under classic are nurtured, restored and can flourish, and if we can build a level of dominance on our server that is self-evident and without dispute in World PvP and Battlegrounds then I would view our efforts as a guild as being successful. Yes I think Arenas are a part of that - but I view them primarily as a place to train class and situational management skills that are necessary for higher level success in larger encounters.

Individual achievement is fine - but it is only when we help others excel that we begin to enjoy the fruits of real and lasting success.

And now for your and our audience's entertainment and edification I will put the clown nose back on and give you the answer you were probably looking for and expecting:

Welda, success for me is when you've been killed, bannered and corpse camped so many times that you finally ragequit the server my dear.
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90 Human Rogue
6740
i really hope incomprehensible druid kid is actually zeroeh

oh please oh please oh please be zeroeh
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I doubt it, but man that would be awesome.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
15505
12/01/2012 06:47 PMPosted by Eliais
Ahh... A true Horde player. One who mocks individual skill and micro-management for out-numbering, healer stacking, and macro-management.


Night elf hunter.


I'm a male night elf, your argument is thus invalid.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10245
12/01/2012 07:10 PMPosted by Malkavet
Welda, success for me is when you've been killed, bannered and corpse camped so many times that you finally ragequit the server my dear.


which would work if this wasn't a pve server ;)
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For me success in our goals is two-fold: My personal metric is to measure how many people I can help be more successful and fulfilled as members of Horde PvP. If my recruitment, encouragement and networking can catapult others to higher levels of achievement than they've managed to earn before then that is success in my book.


Don't think I could have said it better myself. Wait, have we spoken about this before? :)

The second metric is in the culture we create as an organization on our faction and on our server. If we can *rebuild* a community where the tight personal relationships and inter-guild cooperation that defined Horde play under classic are nurtured, restored and can flourish, and if we can rebuild a level of dominance on our server that is self-evident and without dispute in World PvP and Battlegrounds then I would view our efforts as a guild as being successful.


Minor correction made. I have a sneaking suspicion, not sure why :) , that events will unfold sooner than people know. Though I personally would like to take it a step further and rebuild the cross faction respect that was established back in the days of the grind. Was a pretty cool time...minus the whole 8 hrs of pvp a night thing...

Duke

PS:

12/01/2012 07:33 PMPosted by Welda
Welda, success for me is when you've been killed, bannered and corpse camped so many times that you finally ragequit the server my dear.


which would work if this wasn't a pve server ;)


I'd settle for a flag down walk of shame. :)
Edited by Dukago on 12/1/2012 7:59 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
10245
12/01/2012 07:57 PMPosted by Dukago
I'd settle for a flag down walk of shame. :)


i don't really do that even, druids have the luxury of instant fly away and being a night elf makes it that much easier to avoid campage.

getting shelled out of the air unexpectedly just wastes the 15min shell and my 2min shadowmeld, i don't believe i've been camped or been forced to go blue.
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90 Tauren Shaman
6830
We don't always succeed to the level of our hopes and aspirations, but it's the pursuit that defines us not the finish line.


It is in the effort that we come to Know ourselves.

Yes indeed sir, I'll roll up that alt. I will be very interested in making your acquaintance.
Edited by Ashishishe on 12/2/2012 12:24 AM PST
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92 Night Elf Druid
17525
Malk, the horde don't have Halaa, or the Bone Wastes, or Wintergrasp. Where's your horde spirit? It's DEAD I tell you, DEAD.
Edited by Aleros on 12/2/2012 6:47 PM PST
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90 Undead Death Knight
7180
Ahh... A true Horde player. One who mocks individual skill and micro-management for out-numbering, healer stacking, and macro-management. If he were to duel someone one on one, he'd bring three healers along to stand on the sidelines and "watch".


With all due respect Ocba you don't know Malk and what he's accomplished on this server. And that's not your fault, you weren't around for it and I don't expect you to know. But behind the for the lulz forum trolling he's one of the best leaders and strategists the server has seen or ever will.

I know part of what you're doing is to incite trolling because you're like, nineteen and that's what you do. But in complete honesty, with no hint of trolling or malice in my tone, you're terribly off base here.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
15505
With all due respect Ocba you don't know Malk and what he's accomplished on this server. And that's not your fault, you weren't around for it and I don't expect you to know. But behind the for the lulz forum trolling he's one of the best leaders and strategists the server has seen or ever will.

I know part of what you're doing is to incite trolling because you're like, nineteen and that's what you do. But in complete honesty, with no hint of trolling or malice in my tone, you're terribly off base here.


Its all face value. How he's presenting himself on the forums makes my picture very accurate. I won't deny his leadership skills, though. There are very few people on Feathermoon who can truly lead, be it Gunstrak, Mixler, Duke, or Malk. Though he can lead, I question his methods. And discrediting a large portion of PvP (arenas) while pedistooling the other type (RBGs) is not smart nor logical.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
12605


True, but at least I haven't gone panda. :P


Better a panda than a night elf. :P

And I used to be horde. :| Owch, man.

People discredit arenas because a lot of it comes down to being the right class and having gear. WoW was never meant to be balanced around small scale combat.

Do arenas take skill? Sure, to a point. If you're the wrong class/spec/whatever, you're going to have a much harder time of it. Granted, it's silly to say that one or the other isn't 'real' pvp.
Edited by Novikova on 12/2/2012 8:45 PM PST
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12/02/2012 08:42 PMPosted by Novikova
And I used to be horde. :| Owch, man.


I can tell. You don't sound anything like them. You should come home.
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12/02/2012 06:58 PMPosted by Ocba
And discrediting a large portion of PvP (arenas) while pedistooling the other type (RBGs) is not smart nor logical.


I'm not 'discrediting' arenas... whatever it is you think you mean by that. I'm just observing them from a 'utility' perspective. What are they good for. The reality of this game from a PvP standpoint is that it IS NOT BALANCED. It never has been, and never will be. It's just a question of which way the wind is blowing after any given patch. Take 5.1 for instance. 15% healer nerf across the board. That's no joke. And anyone who has been in rateds this week can tell you it has shifted the balance of power back into DPS camp.

This, combined with the gear-dependency built into both PvE and PvP means that there is no such thing as an apples to apples comparison. So across the board, all the wang-waving, is really just that: meaningless wang waving. Even the stuff I engage in. The difference is, I KNOW that it's meaningless and I don't place much stock in most of the incendiary stuff I drop on the forums. It's entertainment.

All that being said, rating CAN tell you a little bit about someone's relative skill - yes even 2v2 rating, if you know how to read past the comps to see the mechanics involved underneath. The smaller the numbers of players involved, the more parsing you have to do to get past class-gear balance issues to discern anything useful about the player. The larger the group, the more diluted those issues become and then you start dealing less with the mechanical issues and more with the human element. So that's why I'm dismissive of Arena e-peen waving. It can give you some useful data, but what it can not tell you, and what is far more important to long term TEAM success, is about a person's attitude and character. Those are the things that will define your team, your guild, your organization.

If my goal were simply to build the highest rated Arena or BG teams on our server, or in our battlegroup, that would be far too small an impact for my satisfaction. It's a flash in the pan. Sure you accomplished something. Once. For a little while. I'm out to build a MOVEMENT that will outlive me and outshine me in every way.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
15505
12/02/2012 09:50 PMPosted by Malkavet
The reality of this game from a PvP standpoint is that it IS NOT BALANCED.


I agree with you on everything but this. Its not as much of unbalanced as it is a Rock, Paper, Scissors game when it comes to classes. No class is unbeatable and no class is always beatable. For example, I can simply say that mages, warlocks, and elemental shamans are very easy for me to beat. Do they sometimes beat me? Yes, but I beat them a lot more than they beat me. I can also say the opposite. I can't beat most healers, all types or priests, monks, and warriors. Do I sometimes do? Yes, but they can kill me more times than I can kill them.

Granted this is on a 1v1 stand-point. And while you view teamwork as important for showing player character (which I agree with), I see individual skill and character as being important too. Mainly because I'm a soloing type of player, and I like it when I can fight 1v1 and win or lose accordingly.
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12/03/2012 05:37 AMPosted by Ocba
Its not as much of unbalanced as it is a Rock, Paper, Scissors game when it comes to classes.


I wish that were true. I always believed that the RPS method which this game started with in Classic was a smarter approach but Ghostcrawler has made it clear on numerous occasions over the past year or so that the devs do not believe that RPS works as an approach to 'balancing' PvP. In fact he commented to that effect on his Twitter feed again less than a week ago when asked about recent balance changes in 5.1. The devs believe, and I can see their argument here even though I don't care for much of what results, that with 11 Classes there is no convoluted framework of Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock that will ever feel right. "Balance" decisions, such as they stand, are made in a much more organic fashion right now that looks at how the individual class meets up with their stated design goals and how it performs in a group setting (typically 5-10 man.)

Moreover, even if it were true that the RPS approach were being used (which it manifestly is not according to the devs themselves) you could never claim to be balanced at any given moment in the game's life cycle because emergent play always breaks your design. The aggregated intelligence and creativity of 9 Million + players will always find the loopholes, flaws and oversights of a design team of a few dozen employees. And so you tweak, and patch, and adjust... ad infinitum.

Which brings me back to my initial assertion. The game is not balanced. It never has been. Expecting it to be is foolhardy. It is a game, and it plays how it plays and that style of play changes incrementally every patch. As players we parse those changes and adjust to meet the new challenges they bring. Last expansion RMP was king in 3s, but now you're more likely to see Shaman and Druids floating to the top. Why? Because Comp matters. Because it isn't balanced. It wasn't in Cata, and it isn't now. And in won't be in 5.2. But as you say - we learn who we're strong against and who we're weaker against.

Which is why you can't place much stock in any small encounters.

Last week in Krasarang Morg, Saelida and I destroyed a 4 man group who shall remain nameless. We won not because of any outrageous skill disparity but because their comp and gear weren't as strong. They had all DPS, and a couple of them were not ideal specs - we had Sae healing and Morg and I focused and cc'ed together. lol Faceroll. Was skill involved? Sure. We WERE more skilled than they were in that particular encounter. You could pick that apart by actually observing the choices made and the coordination involved - but the reality is they never had a chance because of comp and gear. Just looking at the win would not really have told you anything about the skill involved and you couldn't call it balanced, even though they had a 1 Man advantage. It was never a fair fight.

And therein is one of the key lessons that people on both sides of the factional divide really need to internalize. There is no such thing as a fair fight in PvP. Whether it's numbers, or gear, or comp - you are always one one side or the other of an unbalanced lever in World PvP, in Arenas, in Randoms and in Rateds. It's all the same unbalanced mess. Fortunately the more warm bodies we thrown into the equation the less that mess begins to be about the unbalanced mechanics and the more it begins to be about the people - which is it's own crazy mess.

Which is why I say that rather than arguing over what a 2000+ rating in 3's can tell us, it's the development of the PEOPLE that should be the science of our endeavor.
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100 Night Elf Druid
15345
Too much E-peen for one thread! C'mon boys spread that shiznit out!
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90 Night Elf Hunter
15505
Fair enough. That's completely logical in my book. I consent.
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90 Troll Druid
12000
When it comes to RPS I prefer to deploy Lizard or Spock with my rotation.
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