Oh, Vol'jin

85 Worgen Warrior
4910
One of the reasons Vol'jin originally threatened Garrosh was due to his expulsion of races from Orgrimmar's central area.

Vol'jin found Garrosh to be a racist and dangerous for the entirety of the Horde. Same back then and same as now. People cheered when Vol'jin originally mouthed off to Garrosh, and naturally are now.

Potentially he also distrusted Garrosh's violent tendencies. Which are the reasons Thrall chose him in the first place- He thought he'd be a good wartime leader and had faith that he'd mature, however, he would need the guidance of less belligerent Horde leaders.

You say terrorist, I say freedom fighter.
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1 Undead Warlock
0
I never understand why so many of the lore nerds here refuse to look at characters as having complexities. Things have to be wholly evil or wholly good. That's not how it works. Would killing the Warchief be a bad thing? Yes, it would create havoc. However, in much the same way that many people hate Sylvanas for her lack of morals, Garrosh has his faults too. Garrosh is directly walking the Horde into a path that a few decades before almost destroyed the Horde as a whole.

Vol'jin believes in the Horde that Thrall created; a nation of outcasts banded together to survive. To that end, Garrosh threatens everything he believes in. Killing Garrosh guarantees the safeties of the past. No one is "fan-boying" Vol'jin - it's just a different way of looking at the world.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/02/2012 12:05 PMPosted by Dotbots
I never understand why so many of the lore nerds here refuse to look at characters as having complexities. Things have to be wholly evil or wholly good.


Are we reading the same forum?
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90 Human Warrior
13525
12/02/2012 12:16 PMPosted by Skytotem
I never understand why so many of the lore nerds here refuse to look at characters as having complexities. Things have to be wholly evil or wholly good.


Are we reading the same forum?


Vol'Jin doesn't strike me the guy as being *evil*. He just doesn't, he's a tad shady but at least he told Garrosh what's up.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/02/2012 12:17 PMPosted by Lorthuron
Vol'Jin doesn't strike me the guy as being *evil*. He just doesn't, he's a tad shady but at least he told Garrosh what's up.


No I mean aside from Vyrin who advocates black and white morality here?
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85 Worgen Warrior
4910
12/02/2012 12:16 PMPosted by Skytotem
I never understand why so many of the lore nerds here refuse to look at characters as having complexities. Things have to be wholly evil or wholly good.


Are we reading the same forum?


I think that many posters are in favor of complexity, but many popular issues get analyzed as wrong or right, and most of the time, stupid or badly written.

Some also call some lore as "stupid" or "badly written" so they can defend their interpretations of some character, event, or race as good, evil, right, or wrong.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
12/02/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Skytotem
Vol'Jin doesn't strike me the guy as being *evil*. He just doesn't, he's a tad shady but at least he told Garrosh what's up.


No I mean aside from Vyrin who advocates black and white morality here?


I don't think he does. He tries to justify things his faction does that are bad and even when other Alliance members oppose it he still tries to justify it.
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1 Undead Warlock
0
"Oh. Eh, I guess I'm just tired of the rabid anti-Garrosh hypocrisy that goes on. People that cheered Vol'jin promising to murder the Warchief balk at an attempt likewise. Rather than see Vol'jin as the terrorist he is, he's a freedom fighter because we don't like Garrosh.


This is the forum I'm talking about. It's politics. People like Vol'jin, so of course they won't be happy if Garrosh attempts to kill him. If he does, then I don't think any rational person will say that it wasn't a long time coming/justified. Vol'jin DID say he was going to kill Garrosh.

I'm new to the forums. I don't know the regular posters here (I'd like to become one though). I have, funny enough, quickly realized Vyrin is the posterboy for Alliance fandom. I'm more or less disregarding his posts already.
Edited by Dotbots on 12/2/2012 1:02 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
12/02/2012 10:22 AMPosted by Lorthuron
No, it really isn't.


Yes it is. Cbred you are lying to yourself and us. Vol'Jin doesn't like Garrosh and he wants to stop him because of what he's doing not because *He doesn't like him*.


He hasn't done anything that hasn't happened before. Except that Garrosh tried to kill him.
Edited by Cbredbeard on 12/2/2012 1:11 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
I'm new to the forums. I don't know the regular posters here (I'd like to become one though). I have, funny enough, quickly realized Vyrin is the posterboy for Alliance fandom. I'm more or less disregarding his posts already.


Please do that. Vyrin is a level of fanaticism that we do not want here. (I hope I never get that bad) He's determined to twist and turn everything about the Forsaken into them, being bad and evil and even alien. And he goes on and on and on about how the Alliance wants Lordaeron, when it's only 1/7th of the Alliance that wants Loredaeron back. He does have a few good points here and there though.
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90 Human Mage
15925
He hasn't done anything that hasn't happened before.


Kicking the trolls out of Orgrimmar hadn't happened before. Certainly not under Thrall.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
This is the forum I'm talking about. It's politics. People like Vol'jin, so of course they won't be happy if Garrosh attempts to kill him. If he does, then I don't think any rational person will say that it wasn't a long time coming/justified. Vol'jin DID say he was going to kill Garrosh.

I'm new to the forums. I don't know the regular posters here (I'd like to become one though). I have, funny enough, quickly realized Vyrin is the posterboy for Alliance fandom. I'm more or less disregarding his posts already.


No you're wrong. I like Vol'Jin cause I think he's cool and a decent person. I'm shocked Garrosh would try and assassinate Vol'jin. Has nothing to do with his threat, Vol'Jin is upset because Garrosh is taking the Horde down a dark path.

He hasn't done anything that hasn't happened before. Except that Garrosh tried to kill him.


Kick out the Trolls from Orgrimmar, insult Vol'Jin personally at Pandaria and now try and assassinate him. Vol'Jin wouldn't do crap if Garrosh wasn't so foolish.

Please do that. Vyrin is a level of fanaticism that we do not want here. (I hope I never get that bad) He's determined to twist and turn everything about the Forsaken into them, being bad and evil and even alien. And he goes on and on and on about how the Alliance wants Lordaeron, when it's only 1/7th of the Alliance that wants Loredaeron back. He does have a few good points here and there though.


I'd love to have it back but I accept the fact it may be gone for good. Light's sake may as well find another piece of land for Alliance to live in and call it New Lordaeron or something. Eventually we have to move on. Heck the new Horde politics has no relation to Lordaeron..at all.
Edited by Lorthuron on 12/2/2012 1:32 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
12/02/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Gibbons
He hasn't done anything that hasn't happened before.


Kicking the trolls out of Orgrimmar hadn't happened before. Certainly not under Thrall.


That happened literally years ago. And Garrosh also insulted Vol'jin years ago. In fact, they exchanged barbs and threats. Yet for some reason Horde players are going to side with Vol'jin against Garrosh. They're going to get involved with a personal fued during a time of war at the detriment to the Horde.
Edited by Cbredbeard on 12/2/2012 1:48 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
Vol'jin wants to kill Garrosh because Garrosh abused his position as Warchief.

Garrosh wants to kill Vol'jin because Vol'jin called him out on it.


He's not abusing his position, because there aren't any constraints on it.
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90 Undead Hunter
3775
12/02/2012 09:21 AMPosted by Skytotem
My issue with him is that he proclaims this goal to Garrosh's face, which again, is why I call him a good-aligned Starscream.


This pretty much.

I don't like Vol'jin all that much but he's still our next best thing after Garrosh dies.

Baine? Haha no.

Sylvanas? Nope.

Gallywix? Nope.

Lor'themar? Only recently grew his spine.
What about Suarfang?
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/02/2012 01:50 PMPosted by Snocterris
What about Suarfang?


Too old and too memed.

EDIT:

12/02/2012 01:47 PMPosted by Cbredbeard
Yet for some reason Horde players are going to side with Vol'jin against Garrosh.


Well garrosh is taking increasingly risky moves and doing a lot of corruptive dangerous stuff while Vol'jin -isn't-...

Garrosh is racist and disrespectful to every race except orcs so...

I don't really get the 'for some reason' thing here.
Edited by Skytotem on 12/2/2012 1:55 PM PST
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90 Troll Hunter
12970
12/02/2012 07:02 AMPosted by Roahin
Rather than see Vol'jin as the terrorist he is, he's a freedom fighter because we don't like Garrosh.

No, he's a freedom fighter because he's a freedom fighter.

He's the only Horde leader who saw Garrosh for what he is long before anyone else. If it weren't for Vol'jin's trust in Thrall, he might have slain Garrosh a long time ago.

Garrosh has been serving no one but himself and the Orcs. He doesn't care about anyone else. Sure, he'll extend the riches to "anyone who stands with us [Orcs]" but they'll only be treated as second class citizens. We know he segregates Orgrimmar. It's only a small step away from worse.

Garrosh is working with corrupting magics. Hell, he emulates the - Mogu - of all races. It would be one thing if it were Vrykul or even the Mantid, at least they have a type of Blue and Orange Morality. But the Mogu? If they're a sign of what Garrosh aims to be, all the non-Orcish races of the Horde will become slaves. He nearly tries this with the Darkspear themselves when he subjugates the Echo Isles.

Vol'jin is right. Garrosh is wrong.
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90 Human Mage
15925
They're going to get involved with a personal fued during a time of war at the detriment to the Horde.


No, getting rid of Garrosh would be far from detrimental to the Horde. He's the sort of person who would rule the world or see it burned to ashes around him, so if anything, keeping him in power is detrimental to the Horde.

And it's not just Garrosh vs. Vol'jin, anyway: Baine, Lor'themar, and Sylvanas are becoming increasingly discontent with Garrosh's rule as well.
Edited by Gibbons on 12/2/2012 2:34 PM PST
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85 Dwarf Mage
3650
Vol'jin wants to kill Garrosh because he doesn't like Garrosh. Garrosh wants to kill Vol'jin for the same reason.


More like Vol'Jin wants to kill Garrosh because he is tearing the fabric of the Horde apart with an unjust war of conquest and bloodshed that is not only resulting in making the Horde look like savages to everyone else, but is making the Orcs push Trolls in slums, pollute the waters of Durotar with Goblin oil, and use the peaceful Tauren as no more than brutes and enforcers for Garrosh's war machine.

Garrosh wants to kill Vol'Jin because he wants to remain a bloodthirsty warmonger and dictator who is trying to exterminate everything in his way, including his own allies who disagree with his crimes.
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70 Night Elf Death Knight
0
12/02/2012 02:33 PMPosted by Archimkazile
More like Vol'Jin wants to kill Garrosh because he is tearing the fabric of the Horde apart with an unjust war of conquest and bloodshed that is not only resulting in making the Horde look like savages to everyone else, but is making the Orcs push Trolls in slums, pollute the waters of Durotar with Goblin oil, and use the peaceful Tauren as no more than brutes and enforcers for Garrosh's war machine.


Orcs were starving and where in the process of dying out, What did you expect them to do? If Garrosh did not act as he did the horde would not exist and no fabric would be left to tear up. Also as an ally the trolls are terrible. I can mostly agree with what garrosh did voljin is a known alliance sympathizer and with the trolls growing in power getting a more obedient troll leader would be the best for the horde.
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