Just got a Jaina quest, Patch 5.1 (Spoilers)

100 Human Monk
6510
You guys complained in previous expansions and patches that there was too much neutrality.

Now Blizzard is making an entire expansion where they have a character explain all this neutrality.

You can't honestly expect them to just turn their own story upside down and say "What we really should do is make the Alliance and all the races associated with it a faction of pure hatred against the nasty Horde".

It was Metzen's goal in WCIII to make the Orcs not be the stereotypical bad guys. To give them depth and show them as a race searching for identity. The in-game world has to reflect this as a possibility.

Not for story telling quality exactly, but because Blizzard doesn't give enough budget/time to for the writers/quest designers to make parallel factions for every situation(IE, Dalaran for Alliance and Zandalari Trolls for Horde mages, or something).
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41 Gnome Priest
310
Started this war....? Wouldn't that be..counter intuitive.

Yeah, that is true. It basically invalidates the destruction of Theramore and Rhonin's death for Jaina.


I'm not so entirely convinced, things aren't over yet.


Yeah, but as of now she seems fine. It will be like the stealing of the Divine Bell, and maybe the death of Anduin that pushes her to join the alliance. It just seems to make Theramore so much less important.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
Theramore was destroyed to turn the Horde against Garrosh.
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I'm not so entirely convinced, things aren't over yet.


Yes they are.

The point of destroying Theramore was to galvanize Jaina.

She was not galvanized. She is Neutral as of the beginning of patch 5.1.

Destroying Theramore was completely worthless for the Alliance, both from a narrative standpoint and a gameplay standpoint.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
Now, if you'll excuse me, Lucy promised me I'd get to actually kick the football this time.


I'm going to remember this for quite some time. Thank you for cheering me up. :)
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12/03/2012 10:20 PMPosted by Cbredbeard
Theramore was destroyed to turn the Horde against Garrosh.


1. Most of the Horde threw Garrosh a parade on his return to Ogrimmar.

2. We were told that the point of Theramore's destruction was to Galvanize Jaina.

3. "Alliance Lore destroyed or subjugated for Horde development" got old about 7 years ago.
Edited by Jaelara on 12/3/2012 10:23 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Well look at that.
A whole book about the destruction of Theramore was actually about Horde development.

I'm shocked.

But seriously, what the hell, Blizz? I like Night elves as much as anyone else, but what the hell is the point? Jaina goes back to neutral after Theramore, but only gets into the war because of what the Sunreavers do?
This is frankly insulting. "Dalaran is a beacon of neutrality!" News flash; Garrosh doesn't care about neutrality. His Horde doesn't care about neutrality. You're the reason Garrosh is so successful by not reacting.


Jaina was always pro neutrality and all that. Even still we have to understand that not all the Sunreavers were at fault because of this. Yeah I'm certain there was a lot of them gunning against the Alliance. Either way Jaina is going to get pissed once the questline about Darnassus gets revealed.

Personally Dalaran should just go back to the Alliance. It's been abused enough times as it is. Dismantle the Horde portals and kick out those that went against the Alliance or rather tried to abuse the neutrality.

Could have?

Hell, we DID. Not that it matters though, just another slight for the pile.


That war was started by...Putress....it's only coming full scale now.

Yeah, but as of now she seems fine. It will be like the stealing of the Divine Bell, and maybe the death of Anduin that pushes her to join the alliance. It just seems to make Theramore so much less important.


In the long run it may make Theramore less important but for others of the Alliance it's the last straw. As I said earlier once Darnassus is attacked, things will changed.
Edited by Lorthuron on 12/3/2012 10:29 PM PST
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You guys complained in previous expansions and patches that there was too much neutrality.

Now Blizzard is making an entire expansion where they have a character explain all this neutrality.


Jaina is not "explaining" anything we have not heard from Thrall, Malfurion, Tirion, and others dozens of times over.

And we were specifically told that it would be worth losing Theramore because Jaina would be galvanized.

As of patch 5.1, that is officially NOT WHAT HAPPENED.

Losing Theramore didn't get the Alliance anything. It was a brutal, complete, and senseless victory by the Horde over the Alliance.
Edited by Jaelara on 12/3/2012 10:26 PM PST
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100 Human Monk
6510
Yes they are.

The point of destroying Theramore was to galvanize Jaina.


Find a quote to prove it please.



12/03/2012 10:20 PMPosted by Jaelara
She was not galvanized. She is Neutral as of the beginning of patch 5.1.


At the end of her book, actually. Because she realized in her hatred-fueled rampage she almost wiped out the Alliance fleet herself.

If a fictional character can become smarter than you in the span of her cheap popcorn novel, come on!



12/03/2012 10:20 PMPosted by Jaelara
Destroying Theramore was completely worthless for the Alliance, both from a narrative standpoint and a gameplay standpoint.


No it isn't. Those people still died, and the Horde still needs to be stopped because of it. Not everyone in the Horde is responsible for it though, and that's Jaina's point. Garrosh and those who support him have to be dealt with. The rest just need to learn a lesson.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
12/03/2012 09:18 PMPosted by Jaelara
What the ever-living heck was the point of losing Theramore again?


To make the Horde like Baine feel bad. No matter how much land, family, and friends the Alliance loses, they won't do anything. Making the Horde feel like crap.

You hear that Horde?! The Alliance will make you feel like baby-eating villains this expansion! That is their plan! Oh, you'll hate killing civilains and soldiers who deem it dishonorable to fight back.

Now step right up, and enjoy their delicious babies! Do you want salt? Pepper? You'll eat that baby, love it, then feel horrible about yourselves.
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41 Gnome Priest
310
12/03/2012 10:26 PMPosted by Draile
She was not galvanized. She is Neutral as of the beginning of patch 5.1.


At the end of her book, actually. Because she realized in her hatred-fueled rampage she almost wiped out the Alliance fleet herself.

If a fictional character can become smarter than you in the span of her cheap popcorn novel, come on!


Didn't the fleet get wiped out by Garrosh's Kraken anyway?
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
12/03/2012 10:20 PMPosted by Draile
It was Metzen's goal in WCIII to make the Orcs not be the stereotypical bad guys. To give them depth and show them as a race searching for identity. The in-game world has to reflect this as a possibility.


I'd say they realised that they pushed that too far and ignored everything that orcs had become. It shouldn't have been as easy as was portrayed and it actually hasn't been.

But it shouldn't be the Alliance's job to give the Horde the benefit of a doubt. The Horde has done so much evil, has been so terrible towards the Alliance that there shouldn't be any room for arguement that what the Horde is and how it should be dealt with as far as the Alliance is concerned. If the Horde is going to have an identity crisis, it should be an internal affair with the orcs being influencing and being influenced by their allies in negative and positive ways.

And considering the orcs' history, there should be a whole bunch of negativity.
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90 Human Warrior
16790
12/03/2012 10:23 PMPosted by Lorthuron
That war was started by...Putress....it's only coming full scale now.


I mean started the Alliance's full participation in the war.

Which apparently STILL HASN'T HAPPENED.

12/03/2012 10:26 PMPosted by Draile
Garrosh and those who support him


i.e. The Horde
Edited by Turagent on 12/3/2012 10:29 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Priest
17460
Well look at that.
A whole book about the destruction of Theramore was actually about Horde development.

I'm shocked.

But seriously, what the hell, Blizz? I like Night elves as much as anyone else, but what the hell is the point? Jaina goes back to neutral after Theramore, but only gets into the war because of what the Sunreavers do?
This is frankly insulting. "Dalaran is a beacon of neutrality!" News flash; Garrosh doesn't care about neutrality. His Horde doesn't care about neutrality. You're the reason Garrosh is so successful by not reacting.


Jaina was always pro neutrality and all that. Even still we have to understand that not all the Sunreavers were at fault because of this. Yeah I'm certain there was a lot of them gunning against the Alliance. Either way Jaina is going to get pissed once the questline about Darnassus gets revealed.

Personally Dalaran should just go back to the Alliance. It's been abused enough times as it is. Dismantle the Horde portals and kick out those that went against the Alliance or rather tried to abuse the neutrality.


Gee, you're telling me that its not the utter destruction of her kingdom, the horrific death of her closest friends and advisors and a large part of the 7th Legion that's going to piss her off?
What, she thought that most of the Horde was totally against Garrosh? She KNEW they were partying in Orgrimmar the whole time. It was the exact reason she was going to use the Focusing Iris to drown it, so what makes her think that neutrality is the way to go to stop the Horde?

This is nonsensical on so many points its hard to focus on one.
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100 Night Elf Priest
17460

Destroying Theramore was completely worthless for the Alliance, both from a narrative standpoint and a gameplay standpoint.


No it isn't. Those people still died, and the Horde still needs to be stopped because of it. Not everyone in the Horde is responsible for it though, and that's Jaina's point. Garrosh and those who support him have to be dealt with. The rest just need to learn a lesson.


So what is the best way to stop Garrosh? Oh, I know! Let's become neutral! That will show him!
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450



No it isn't. Those people still died, and the Horde still needs to be stopped because of it. Not everyone in the Horde is responsible for it though, and that's Jaina's point. Garrosh and those who support him have to be dealt with. The rest just need to learn a lesson.


So what is the best way to stop Garrosh? Oh, I know! Let's become neutral! That will show him!


Yeah! Deny him honorable combat! That'll piss him off so much, he has to eat a draenei baby to calm his nerves.
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90 Human Warrior
13525


Jaina was always pro neutrality and all that. Even still we have to understand that not all the Sunreavers were at fault because of this. Yeah I'm certain there was a lot of them gunning against the Alliance. Either way Jaina is going to get pissed once the questline about Darnassus gets revealed.

Personally Dalaran should just go back to the Alliance. It's been abused enough times as it is. Dismantle the Horde portals and kick out those that went against the Alliance or rather tried to abuse the neutrality.


Gee, you're telling me that its not the utter destruction of her kingdom, the horrific death of her closest friends and advisors and a large part of the 7th Legion that's going to piss her off?
What, she thought that most of the Horde was totally against Garrosh? She KNEW they were partying in Orgrimmar the whole time. It was the exact reason she was going to use the Focusing Iris to drown it, so what makes her think that neutrality is the way to go to stop the Horde?

This is nonsensical on so many points its hard to focus on one.


It nearly drove her over the edge. She almost went to the point of no return. I don't care if any of you think drowning Orgrimmar would solve anything. We would just be as bad as the Horde so please just shut up about that logic.

Not to mention what Draile said about knocking out her own fleet. She's neutral right now but won't be any moment. Yes it doesn't make sense but you guys said the same thing about Jaina not wanting to fight the Horde before Garrosh was even in charge.

So what is the best way to stop Garrosh? Oh, I know! Let's become neutral! That will show him!


I get that you're upset but that's hardly helpful. I don't think being neutral is the answer to stop Garrosh's Horde but Jaina didn't go over the edge for a very good reason. It's not about revenge.
Edited by Lorthuron on 12/3/2012 10:38 PM PST
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Yes they are.

The point of destroying Theramore was to galvanize Jaina.


Find a quote to prove it please.


http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/09/20/wow-insider-interviews-lead-quest-designer-dave-kosak/#continued

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3430805957?page=2#37

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3657427722?page=6#105

It nearly drove her over the edge.


But then her dragon boyfriend totally calmed her down and now she's more neutral than she ever was.
Edited by Jaelara on 12/3/2012 10:37 PM PST
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100 Human Monk
6510
12/03/2012 10:27 PMPosted by Healstime
Didn't the fleet get wiped out by Garrosh's Kraken anyway?


A lot of it was, yeah. But that doesn't really matter: It would have looked way worse if Jaina did it herself, unintentionally. She'd never forgive herself.





I'd say they realised that they pushed that too far and ignored everything that orcs had become. It shouldn't have been as easy as was portrayed and it actually hasn't been.

But it shouldn't be the Alliance's job to give the Horde the benefit of a doubt. The Horde has done so much evil, has been so terrible towards the Alliance that there shouldn't be any room for arguement that what the Horde is and how it should be dealt with as far as the Alliance is concerned. If the Horde is going to have an identity crisis, it should be an internal affair with the orcs being influencing and being influenced by their allies in negative and positive ways.

And considering the orcs' history, there should be a whole bunch of negativity.


It wouldn't be a war story if one side didn't have to put up with the other's nonsense.

If anything, I think the biggest failing here is that the Horde doesn't have to put up with the Alliance so much. Which is the same complaint this thread in general is making, but from more of an outter perspective.

That is to say, the Horde tries to portray the Alliance as being just as bad when in reality the Alliance has only been the aggressors so far in Southern Barrens and Azshara(Where they were soundly defeated).
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
Guys really, log onto your Horde toons, and eat some Alliance babies. We need to make the Horde feel bad about themselves. That's the only way to make them stop.
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