Just got a Jaina quest, Patch 5.1 (Spoilers)

90 Blood Elf Paladin
12070
This is utter nonsense.

If she killed the King of Stormwind in a fit of blind rage we'd be having a different story right now.

One where Orgrimmar is destroyed and the Alliance is hunting down Jaina for regicide. Only Jaina wouldn't be much of a raid boss, because she'd probably go down sobbing in despair that she killed one of her good friends and the father of a kid she considers a nephew.

That actually sounds like a much better story.


Indeed I would enjoy this story much more
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Thankfully, pacifism isn't on that list. Jaina hasn't gotten that memo yet however.


Pacifism is good until war goes on. And by pacifism I mean the def...not Thrall's definition cause.... writing error or not...it's not a good one.

Indeed I would enjoy this story much more


Course you would....Blood Elf scum!

Except you are implying it. All this thread is are implications between bombing orc schools to be aggressive and letting the Horde punch the Alliance because they refuse to get their hands dirty.


Noitora don't be daft. We don't need to get our hands dirty to fight this war well and end it. It's a bad thing to say we need to to win.
Edited by Lorthuron on 12/3/2012 10:59 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
16790
12/03/2012 10:53 PMPosted by Lorthuron
You are clearly having issues with me saying *LET THE HORDE WALK OVER US*. I have never said that, nor implied that.


In that case, when would it be reasonable for Jaina to stop trusting the Horde and do something about them?

She did nothing at the start of Vanilla. (Hillsbrad, Ashenvale, etc.)
She did nothing in Wrath (Wrathgate, Angrathar, Undercity)
She did nothing in Cataclysm (Hillsbrad/Ashenvale II: Electric Boogaloo, Barrens)
She did nothing in Mists (Theramore, arguably the biggest)

So, where's the stoppage of the walking over her and the Alliance as a whole?
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
@ Lorthuron; you'd content yourself with Garrosh being taken out of the picture and saying everything is rosey. Putting everything on one guy's shoulders is the absolute worst direction they could have the Alliance go and you know it.

12/03/2012 10:50 PMPosted by Draile
I gotta ask, does Varian still want to dismantle the Horde or doesn't he? Is that gone now? Are they going to blame that on Lo'gosh and his rage and personality issues as well? Because Varian was completely right...


Of course he isn't. He's a smarter person now.

I'm afraid if you want to be aggressive and hateful, you're on the wrong faction. The Alliance is about compassion, love, intellectual pursuit, and all that good guy stuff.


You don't need to be hateful to recognize that the Horde is a rotten military state that has been nothing but a bitter enemy since it first clashed with any of the Alliance races. And from there you don't need to hateful to come to the conclusion that your enemy needs to be destroyed so that you can live in peace and security.
Edited by Cbredbeard on 12/3/2012 11:04 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12070
12/03/2012 10:57 PMPosted by Lorthuron
Thankfully, pacifism isn't on that list. Jaina hasn't gotten that memo yet however.


Pacifism is good until war goes on. And by pacifism I mean the def...not Thrall's definition cause.... writing error or not...it's not a good one.

Indeed I would enjoy this story much more


Course you would....Blood Elf scum!


I'm actually a human paladin but I wanted to raid so had to go Horde/server transfer =p

And now I would like it more becuase it would send a much needed jolt of reality to the Horde, if we keep pushing one day we're just going to get pushed back and pushed back much harder.

I don't like this one sided Horde messes with Alliance, Alliance stamps feet, horde runs away laughing alliance shakes fists screaming they'll get us next time, repeat.

It's boring.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
In that case, when would it be reasonable for Jaina to stop trusting the Horde and do something about them?


That's fine as long as we're not *BLOOD MURDER MUTILATION GORE*

I'm actually a human paladin but I wanted to raid so had to go Horde/server transfer =p

And now I would like it more becuase it would send a much needed jolt of reality to the Horde, if we keep pushing one day we're just going to get pushed back and pushed back much harder.

I don't like this one sided Horde messes with Alliance, Alliance stamps feet, horde runs away laughing alliance shakes fists screaming they'll get us next time, repeat.

It's boring.


We'd be hypocrites though, it wouldn't prove much other then we're just as bad as the Horde.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
12/03/2012 10:57 PMPosted by Lorthuron
Noitora don't be daft. We don't need to get our hands dirty to fight this war well and end it. It's a bad thing to say we need to to win.


Except war is a dirty task. There are "honorable" and "dishonorable" ways to go about it, but it's dirty.

How do you stop an army that has made very clear intentions on invading? That has not only attacked villages and Alliance cities, but neutral cities as well?
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90 Human Warrior
13525
12/03/2012 11:03 PMPosted by Noitora
Noitora don't be daft. We don't need to get our hands dirty to fight this war well and end it. It's a bad thing to say we need to to win.


Except war is a dirty task. There are "honorable" and "dishonorable" ways to go about it, but it's dirty.

How do you stop an army that has made very clear intentions on invading? That has not only attacked villages and Alliance cities, but neutral cities as well?


We do things by the book. We did the same to the Scourge. Why should it be any different? CAUSE ITS DA EVUL HORDE MAN? No I don't buy it, I refuse to.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
12/03/2012 11:02 PMPosted by Lorthuron
We'd be hypocrites though, it wouldn't prove much other then we're just as bad as the Horde.


Except there are actual people who feel that if the Alliance fights back at all, instead of retreating, or giving up resources, that they are as bad as the Horde invading them. If you kill off a leader, you are as bad as the Horde. If you steal resources, you are as bad as the Horde.

So give us an example of an honorable way to fight the war that doesn't make the Alliance Horde.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
12/03/2012 11:05 PMPosted by Lorthuron
We do things by the book. We did the same to the Scourge.


No we didn't. We indiscriminately carpet bombed them with no regard for civilians, tortured their leaders for information, and regularly hunted down and killed them with extreme prejudice.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
12/03/2012 11:05 PMPosted by Lorthuron
We do things by the book. We did the same to the Scourge. Why should it be any different? CAUSE ITS DA EVUL HORDE MAN? No I don't buy it, I refuse to.


The Scourge we killed off cultists. Not imprison them, killed. We burned each others bodies to prevent us from turning into a zombie. A warrior, death knight, or paladin used Shadowmourne to fight the Scourge. We even posed as a scourge and cultist to take it apart from the inside out. We fought in tournaements to defeat their champions and force them into a bad ressurection. We allowed a Banshee to possess both a vykrul woman and a Val'kyr.

It was one of the most unconvientional wars both sides have faced. Especially the Alliance.
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We do things by the book. We did the same to the Scourge. Why should it be any different? CAUSE ITS DA EVUL HORDE MAN? No I don't buy it, I refuse to.


The Argent Crusade *tried* to do things by the book.

And in most cases, it failed miserably and they had to rely on the Ebon Blade and/or the PCs to bail them out by doing the dirty work.
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90 Human Warrior
16790
12/03/2012 11:02 PMPosted by Lorthuron
That's fine as long as we're not *BLOOD MURDER MUTILATION GORE*


But it's also not what Jaina's doing, which is the crux of the argument. She's not "conducting a war in an honorable fashion to minimize collateral damage", she's doing nothing.

I get the feeling that so many Alliance posters are out for Horde blood and immoral things because it'd be a relief to actually have our leaders DO ANYTHING, morality be damned.

I mean, as far as the story goes, I think we'd get a lot more mileage out of "Jaina screws the pooch majorly acting in a fit of emotion, (which after seeing everyone you love and care for vaporized isn't totally abnormal) and kills a lot of innocent people" than "Jaina turns the other cheek. Again."

Yeah, being the knight in shining armor can be a good story. But the Alliance isn't. It's the Knight in Apathetic armor. And I'd rather have a more grey story than no story at all.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
We'd be hypocrites though, it wouldn't prove much other then we're just as bad as the Horde.


Except there are actual people who feel that if the Alliance fights back at all, instead of retreating, or giving up resources, that they are as bad as the Horde invading them. If you kill off a leader, you are as bad as the Horde. If you steal resources, you are as bad as the Horde.

So give us an example of an honorable way to fight the war that doesn't make the Alliance Horde.


I'm speaking of extremes here. I never said killing a leader would be as bad as the Horde? You think I oppose killing Sylvanas? Course not...I'd enjoy slaying her. Garrosh? Same thing. Only those that have shown clear malice towards us. Baine and Vol'Jin are pretty much *neutral* minded.

As for invading, defend your resources, your land. Find alternatives to help Durotar prosper and what not. And stealing resources? I never heard anyone mention that and...no idea where that was mentioned.

But it's also not what Jaina's doing, which is the crux of the argument. She's not "conducting a war in an honorable fashion to minimize collateral damage", she's doing nothing.


And I get that and I'm fine with it.

get the feeling that so many Alliance posters are out for Horde blood and immoral things because it'd be a relief to actually have our leaders DO ANYTHING, morality be damned.


I mean, as far as the story goes, I think we'd get a lot more mileage out of "Jaina screws the pooch majorly acting in a fit of emotion, (which after seeing everyone you love and care for vaporized isn't totally abnormal) and kills a lot of innocent people" than "Jaina turns the other cheek. Again."

Yeah, being the knight in shining armor can be a good story. But the Alliance isn't. It's the Knight in Apathetic armor. And I'd rather have a more grey story than no story at all.


We're Alliance we've always been good guys. I'm all for Lawful good and not lawful stupid or *neutral*.

The Scourge we killed off cultists. Not imprison them, killed. We burned each others bodies to prevent us from turning into a zombie. A warrior, death knight, or paladin used Shadowmourne to fight the Scourge. We even posed as a scourge and cultist to take it apart from the inside out. We fought in tournaements to defeat their champions and force them into a bad ressurection. We allowed a Banshee to possess both a vykrul woman and a Val'kyr.

It was one of the most unconvientional wars both sides have faced. Especially the Alliance.


Duh... I'd think if we'd wage war against the Forsaken burning human bodies would be essential and I'm fine with that. I don't find a problem with it IMO.
Edited by Lorthuron on 12/3/2012 11:15 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12070
12/03/2012 11:02 PMPosted by Lorthuron
In that case, when would it be reasonable for Jaina to stop trusting the Horde and do something about them?


That's fine as long as we're not *BLOOD MURDER MUTILATION GORE*

I'm actually a human paladin but I wanted to raid so had to go Horde/server transfer =p

And now I would like it more becuase it would send a much needed jolt of reality to the Horde, if we keep pushing one day we're just going to get pushed back and pushed back much harder.

I don't like this one sided Horde messes with Alliance, Alliance stamps feet, horde runs away laughing alliance shakes fists screaming they'll get us next time, repeat.

It's boring.


We'd be hypocrites though, it wouldn't prove much other then we're just as bad as the Horde.


What would be wrong with being a hypocrite? The Horde is constantly a hypocrite. Why is it not acceptable to have the worlds most powerful mage be pushed to far and feeling her vengeance?

Now semi-off topic. But if there are factions in the Horde (Vol'jin) who have talked to the Alliance the past (CATA there is a group of trolls asking for the Alliance help against the Zandalari) why haven't any of these "We dislike Garrosh" groups talked with the Alliance at all? I mean I think the first thing a resistance group would want to do is find allies, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I'm just waiting for the Army of the Light faction and we get a third completely neutral faction with all the races :D
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41 Gnome Priest
310
12/03/2012 11:05 PMPosted by Lorthuron
We do things by the book. We did the same to the Scourge. Why should it be any different? CAUSE ITS DA EVUL HORDE MAN? No I don't buy it, I refuse to.


I agree. We should treat the horde (the orcs at least) like we treated the scourge. They have only really shown themselves to be a force of pure destruction under Garrosh anyway.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15070
AHHHHHHHHHHHH!
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90 Human Warrior
16790
12/03/2012 11:10 PMPosted by Lorthuron
We're Alliance we've always been good guys. I'm all for Lawful good and not lawful stupid or *neutral*.


Then why are you defending Jaina's decision to stay neutral after the events of Theramore?

Now semi-off topic. But if there are factions in the Horde (Vol'jin) who have talked to the Alliance the past (CATA there is a group of trolls asking for the Alliance help against the Zandalari) why haven't any of these "We dislike Garrosh" groups talked with the Alliance at all? I mean I think the first thing a resistance group would want to do is find allies, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend.


I'd imagine that they believe the Alliance isn't too keen on trusting the Horde for a sixth time.
Edited by Turagent on 12/3/2012 11:17 PM PST
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93 Tauren Druid
7750
12/03/2012 10:19 PMPosted by Jaelara
As of Patch 5.1, it is now officially canon that it DID NOT DO THAT


Maybe you should stop reading the story and flip over to the last three chapters, because it's obvious you don't like the setup.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Then why are you defending Jaina's decision to stay neutral after the events of Theramore?


Because I know it's in her character to do that. Yes I want her to be pro Alliance but what do you want me to say? I accept she's neutral NOW but prefer she'd be Alliance? That what you want me to say?
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