Highly Rated Post: Competitive Gaming

90 Human Priest
6485
Agree on all accounts. I enjoyed my Feral in BC more than in any other expansion because of how unique it was. I had a very unique interrupt (the old bear Feral Charge) which was changed to the cookie cutter "Kick". My defensives consisted of barkskin, bear form tanking and enraged regen. Now I have "Shield Wall" and only go bear because Might of Ursoc puts me in bear automatically. I liked having to switch to bear form to bash. Our mobility was amazing and still is, we never needed "Shadowstep" to stay on top of people, Bear charge was doing just fine (you could argue "that's just like warrior Charge, but at least I'm shifting to different forms which is what being a Feral meant to begin with, not just sit in cat form all day). Just took everything that was unique about my class and threw it out the window and then proceeded to compensate by copy/pasting from other classes.

Just want to clarify I'm not complaining in any way shape or form on the current state of Feral PvP right now, simply the uniqueness of my class.


This is really the essence of what point 1 was all about. I don't think blizzard really realizes how many players liked the old unique designs of classes. Sure copy pasting makes things easy to design but simplicity isn't something to strive for.
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90 Human Priest
6485
Sweet post. +1

disagree on grinding. Wow is one of the easiest games in terms of grinding, it's incredibly easy and everything's handed to you on a silver platter.


I have to ask though, what is point/value of grinding(regardless of difficulty)? Especially if you're looking an equal playing field/competitive game??

I'm fine with people wanting distinction (T2 gear or w/e...xmog could fix it), but grinding just seems like a time sink. The game play should be compelling so that you to want re-sub, and not "We'll throw these guys in a hampster wheel and make bank."

I think you can have progression without having to upgrade stats...but that's just me I spose.


You can see this model working in other games all the time. Games like HON have no grinding requirements to maintain competitive but do have a large variety of cosmetic rewards which give players something to work towards. This isn't just your opinion, it's confirmed fact.
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90 Troll Shaman
5680
I love the suggestions being made.

I requested sticky.
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90 Dwarf Rogue
10140
+1

i miss when each class was unique, now we all share the same abilities.
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90 Undead Hunter
6145
+1

Nice to read a well thought constructive post with no qqing.
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90 Tauren Druid
WGS
9620
Nice post. Really made me miss the old days. Wrath and TBC had some of the funnest arena battles. The only thing that compares this expansion is playing really bad comps with my friends just for fun.

wtb competitive WoW once again. +1
Edited by Bkz on 12/5/2012 2:18 AM PST
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100 Human Monk
10890
At the end of the day this game is balanced around pve aspects first, they spend alot more time on pve.

Tournament type of games are pvp type of games first, not pve, people never baught starcraft or warcraft series for pve content.

Maybe one day blizzard will change course and focus on pvp way more, or add a hardcore pvp focused expansion with different types of maps, fixing the av and ioc that everyone has thumbs down'd and dumping the pve orientated battleground maps of racing to kill npc's, fixing the botting problem that plagues bg's, the low arena participation rates because most won't crack 2200, etc, and I think that truly will happen one day, even though it's been years, when the lifespan of this game begins to wind down I think they will try a pvp xpac more and put out a better type of pvp product out, but until then..


This is probably the biggest thing holding back WoW. There is, however, a market for this game as a competitive one. E-sports has many branches (moba,RTS, FPS etc.) but the one that has been missing for quite some time is an mmo. Other games like guild wars have had some good competitive philosophies but have failed in their game mechanics. WoW has a good chance to seize the market and make something out of this game. They can't do that until they make some changes to the way they design their game. I don't see how it would be a bad business decision to add features that would promote this game as an E-sport.


Its a balance, but I can't say its in favor of pve

The chaos wave change was deff a pvp change, plus our entire talent tree's across all specs are very pvp oriented.
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90 Human Priest
6485


This is probably the biggest thing holding back WoW. There is, however, a market for this game as a competitive one. E-sports has many branches (moba,RTS, FPS etc.) but the one that has been missing for quite some time is an mmo. Other games like guild wars have had some good competitive philosophies but have failed in their game mechanics. WoW has a good chance to seize the market and make something out of this game. They can't do that until they make some changes to the way they design their game. I don't see how it would be a bad business decision to add features that would promote this game as an E-sport.


Its a balance, but I can't say its in favor of pve

The chaos wave change was deff a pvp change, plus our entire talent tree's across all specs are very pvp oriented.


For quite some time there have been relatively simplistic changes that could be made to increase the quality of pvp. Because these changes often have no positive impact on pve, they are not considered as seriously as some others. An example of this would be a year round tournament-realm style where max level/gear is available. This would greatly benefit pvp and there aren't many dedicated pvpers that would argue against it, yet we see nothing of the sort even considered because it would not benefit the 90% of players that are pve focused. It's not so much that blizzard doesn't do pvp things so much as it is that the focus is lying somewhere else. Blizzard looks at the numbers and caters to the greatest percentages.

This seems like a quite sound business decision but what blizzard seems to fail to notice is the abundance of people that they could attract to the game if they were to shift a focus (or add a new aspect to the game that catered to a different type of player). There is a market for competitive games. We've seen it in games like starcraft/halo and more recently in games like LoL. What is still lacking in the competitive scene is an mmo that has a well enough designed pvp system to be added to major tournaments such as MLG. WoW has an opportunity to fill this role and if they capitalize on it then they could make a profit off of it and make a lot of pvpers happy.

Perhaps one of the easiest ways to accomplish this is to separate the two aspects of the game completely and have different realms or even an entirely different game dedicated to pvp. This doesn't seem very realistic, however, as people have been asking for this kind of thing for years. Blizzard seems intent to stick to the ideal that their game should remain as one whole thing rather than two subsets. Because of this it seems that the only possible way to improve the state of pvp is to show blizzard that a large portion of their fan base would appreciate a pvp focus. Maybe if we can show that the 10% of us is actually 20% or 30 %or 50% they will start listening and making appropriate changes.
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90 Undead Priest
6300
At the end of the day this game is balanced around pve aspects first, they spend alot more time on pve.


Which doesn't make much sense. They could make an insane amount of money by paying attention to both sides. What's so hard about balancing classes while they're in arena or a BG? Let PvE spells stay PvE but adjust accordingly when a class steps foot into a PvP scenario.

This keeps PvP from imbalancing PvE and vise versa. LoL knows what's up, now if only I didn't hate the game.
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90 Human Priest
6485
At the end of the day this game is balanced around pve aspects first, they spend alot more time on pve.


Which doesn't make much sense. They could make an insane amount of money by paying attention to both sides. What's so hard about balancing classes while they're in arena or a BG? Let PvE spells stay PvE but adjust accordingly when a class steps foot into a PvP scenario.

This keeps PvP from imbalancing PvE and vise versa. LoL knows what's up, now if only I didn't hate the game.


This is an excellent idea that blizzard doesn't seem to want to follow though with because they are sticking to some ideal that their game should operate as a whole and not as two separate entities.

Their justification for this......

??????????????????????????????????????

I honestly don't see what logical argument can be made for this idea. The idea that the game will be better if they constantly have to try to appeal to two opposing sets of design philosophies while only allowed to make changes that blanket over everything is ridiculous.
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90 Tauren Warrior
0

I honestly don't see what logical argument can be made for this idea. The idea that the game will be better if they constantly have to try to appeal to two opposing sets of design philosophies while only allowed to make changes that blanket over everything is ridiculous.


Character progression. There wouldn't be many people willing to give up all their prestige items (mounts, achievements, gear) to play on a server with nothing but max level, geared, pvp characters.

I can't speak for everyone, but I wouldn't want to have to pay extra money for a separate server on top of a subscription fee for a pure arena experience. Not to mention buying the game and all of the expansions. Especially when you get a better pvp experience in other games without the ludicrous costs.

That being said, a server like that would be more competitive with everyone on a level playing field, and your voice is just as important as anyone's so keep fighting the good fight.
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90 Human Mage
5890
12/04/2012 05:52 AMPosted by Stygz
Too long didn't read. WoW's competitive days are over, Blizzard will never have this game in good enough shape to be an esport again. Period. If you want a competitive game go spend 16 hours a day practicing SC2 or learn to play LoL.


LoL and competitive do not belong in the same sentence
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90 Human Priest
6485

I honestly don't see what logical argument can be made for this idea. The idea that the game will be better if they constantly have to try to appeal to two opposing sets of design philosophies while only allowed to make changes that blanket over everything is ridiculous.


Character progression. There wouldn't be many people willing to give up all their prestige items (mounts, achievements, gear) to play on a server with nothing but max level, geared, pvp characters.

I can't speak for everyone, but I wouldn't want to have to pay extra money for a separate server on top of a subscription fee for a pure arena experience. Not to mention buying the game and all of the expansions. Especially when you get a better pvp experience in other games without the ludicrous costs.

That being said, a server like that would be more competitive with everyone on a level playing field, and your voice is just as important as anyone's so keep fighting the good fight.


Character progression can exist on a pvp based relam. There are achievements and cosmetic upgrades that people would be very willing to progress towards. If things like glaives and shadowmourne were offered as cosmetic rewards for very high arena ratings or for X many wins then i'm sure that people would have no problem finding it rewarding to have a pvp only realm. Other cosmetic rewards can constantly continue to be added to make sure that progression is always something that can happen.

As for cost, there doesn't really need to be one. The current subscription fee is becoming out of date and that can be seen in other games that have shown enormous success without it (LoL is a great example). When I mentioned a year round tournament realm i just wanted to give some sort of reference that people would know about. I suppose a more accurate description would be that of Arena-Tournament.

For those who don't know, Arena-Tournament is a private server that is in a WOTLK patch. Unlike most private servers it does not have any PVE mobs and players are instantly presented with near max gear. Essentially it's a free, year round WOTLK tournament realm and it is vastly popular among a lot of pvpers that quit back in the day. Does the lack of progression make people not play? No. There are things like shadowmourne and glaives that have had stat reduction but still provide a good visual to work towards. This server is by far the most competitive version of WoW that i have ever seen. The only true drawback is that it doesn't often have patches so most of the balance/design issues that were apparent is season 8 are still there.

Arena-Tournament has a great pvp player base and things like BG afking simply don't exist. People actually have a reason to play BGs not to get gear, but because they are fun. This is what WoW should be learning from. These kinds of realms would be HUGE for the pvp community and would show a great increase in willingness to play pvp.
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1 Dwarf Hunter
0
competitive e-sport


This is what ruined WoW.
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90 Troll Druid
0
as others have said, it'll never become the game it could be competitive wise due to one reasoning: pve.

blizzard loves their pve too much to even think about balancing the game around pvp. they'll never change or remove abilities just because of pvp if it effects pve in any way. they'll never have abilities do different damage, have different effects or behave any differently than they do outside of pvp.

it sucks, too. i only enjoy mmo-type competitive pvp games and fps games. i don't really have much interest in becoming competitive in the rts or moba genre. the only good fps out there right now is cs 1.6, with csgo being okay, and not really anything that great out there for mmos as of late.

i had high hopes for gw2, but the pvp seemed too much of a spamfest for me to be honest. i love the fact that you could go straight to max level pvp and not worry about leveling or any type of gear grind, though. best thing i've ever experienced in a competitive mmo.
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90 Human Priest
6485
as others have said, it'll never become the game it could be competitive wise due to one reasoning: pve.

blizzard loves their pve too much to even think about balancing the game around pvp. they'll never change or remove abilities just because of pvp if it effects pve in any way. they'll never have abilities do different damage, have different effects or behave any differently than they do outside of pvp.

it sucks, too. i only enjoy mmo-type competitive pvp games and fps games. i don't really have much interest in becoming competitive in the rts or moba genre. the only good fps out there right now is cs 1.6, with csgo being okay, and not really anything that great out there for mmos as of late.

i had high hopes for gw2, but the pvp seemed too much of a spamfest for me to be honest. i love the fact that you could go straight to max level pvp and not worry about leveling or any type of gear grind, though. best thing i've ever experienced in a competitive mmo.


Yes, Guild Wars was kind of a disappointment. My biggest issue with it was the clunkieness of movement. Looking back at the pre-release times of Guild Wars though, it had a lot of people excited to be able to instantly jump into pvp. Their philosophy to separate the games to ensure the best experience was a good one. What lacked was their ability to execute their goals in an effective way. WoW has exactly the opposite. They have an abundance of people on their team that have the ability to make the game what they want. Currently, they just don't want to do what is best for pvp. When looking at the excitement of some of the design ideas of guild wars, i really don't see how it is hard to see the potential of this game as an E-sport, granted a shift in design philosophy.
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I agree 100% with everything you've posted, You have some great ideas, Most level headed poster i've seen yet, I back you completely
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90 Human Rogue
7665
100% agree, hope we can keep this post doesn't get derailed, If I could farm rating or whatever for cosmetic upgrades and didn't have to constantly worry about farming gear all the time it would be more fun for someone such as myself who plays every class. Instant unavoidable CC needs to be toned down as well, its really getting out of hand.
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90 Human Warlock
4610
Yes to every single point you have made.
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90 Human Death Knight
4575
I want this thread to live forever.
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