Highly Rated Post: Competitive Gaming

90 Human Priest
5995
I haven't done much PvE in MoP (OK none) But I have raided in the past. What everyone on the pvp side is complaining about is insta CC and burst for the most part. CC doesn't really effect PvE, I've yet to see a fear / poly / deep / PoM / whatever else you can think of be used outside maybe trash and even then its not game changing. CC differences between PvE and PvP already exist (poly off the top of my head), and since it can be implemented in some spells already I dont see why reworking other OP PvP abilities which have little to no impact on PvE make a difference. The other problem is CD stacking burst which deals health pools of damage in literally globals. Resilience scaling or pvp power scaling can fix the second problem without effecting PvE in the least.
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90 Human Priest
6525
12/05/2012 11:54 PMPosted by Fushida
I haven't done much PvE in MoP (OK none) But I have raided in the past. What everyone on the pvp side is complaining about is insta CC and burst for the most part. CC doesn't really effect PvE, I've yet to see a fear / poly / deep / PoM / whatever else you can think of be used outside maybe trash and even then its not game changing. CC differences between PvE and PvP already exist (poly off the top of my head), and since it can be implemented in some spells already I dont see why reworking other OP PvP abilities which have little to no impact on PvE make a difference. The other problem is CD stacking burst which deals health pools of damage in literally globals. Resilience scaling or pvp power scaling can fix the second problem without effecting PvE in the least.


Yes, numbers are super easy to adjust now with pvp power/resilience. This kind of balance will come with time. This post isn't about balance so much as it is about MECHANICS though. Balance is good but mechanics are fun. It's these mechanical shifts that will require more of a pvp focus to really start to happen (or a further seperation of the two aspects of the gme).

You've made some decent points though. There are defiantly parts of the game that can be changed without significant impact of pve.
Edited by Getsomesmite on 12/6/2012 8:30 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
6525
12/05/2012 11:31 PMPosted by Mazeryn
I want this thread to live forever.


Let's make it happen. Need to get more replies and up votes to get some attention on these issues.
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90 Human Priest
6525
12/05/2012 09:48 PMPosted by Evasionx
If I could farm rating or whatever for cosmetic upgrades and didn't have to constantly worry about farming gear all the time it would be more fun for someone such as myself who plays every class.


This is perhaps a point that I under-emphasized somewhat in my original post but it is rather significant. If blizzard is going to cater to any part of their player base it should probably be those who play every class. It takes away bias and shows dedication. Yet, with the current system, these are just the kind of players that are punished most. If you play 11 classes (or even if you just have 11 alts) it's a huge time investment just to gear them. Say you have 11 classes to gear. Let's make the assumption that you win 50% of your games (seems reasonable) and each game takes about 7 minutes.

That's 11 classes x 10 wins per class x 2 games per win x 7 minutes per game = 1540 minutes. That's over 25 and a half hours every week just to keep your characters geared. This didn't even factor in potential queue times, or the time that it takes to get your team organized. How is anyone supposed to realistically do this? how can anyone find partners that have a similar enough schedule, as much play time, and similar skill level, to arena with?

This seems like a pretty obvious reason to put all characters on a level playing field from day one.
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90 Orc Warrior
17225
The premise that WoW should be designed around PvP is wrong; WoW is fundamentally a PvE game. It's not just an MMO, it's an MMORPG... RPG = Role Playing Game which is obviously fundamentally PvE. This is why after Blizzard largely abandoned trying to tune WoW into an E-sport (see: TBC) WoW remains the top MMO of the market; and in fact peaked in WotLK after Blizzard abandoned the PvP pursuit.

Most of the things you mentioned that 'hurt' PvP are a direct consequence of PvE balance. For example, homogenization, to the extent that it is implemented, actually succeeded in achieving "bring the player not the class" in a raiding environment. Now except for gimmicky fights and world-class progression, class don't really matter. Getting all the raid buffs, achieving token balance, gear niche equidistribution even in a 10 man raid are fairly easy nowadays. Also, you can be sure that even if you don't focus on bringing specific classes that all of your needs will be met in a raid environment. This is at the expense perhaps of 'uniqueness' in PvP but let's be realistic here: if everyone who PvPs seriously ups and leaves the game tomorrow, WoW will still have 10 million+ subscribers.

This is especially true for requiring gear. The basic formula for a MMO is character progression. Yes, you can say you are 'progressing' by getting better; but this is not measurable. If you are improving but everyone else is improving faster, it feels like you are getting worse not better. In WoW even if you are progressing slower than everyone else your character still objectively improves. This is the reason why people 'grind'; the illusion of getting better. To make it more clear... think of a really bad player in PvP. Not only are they bad, they are incapable of getting better (skill wise) for some reason. I would say that 90+% of all PvPers fall into this category (think BG heroes and the such). Now, they can become better by getting better geared. Eventually by just grinding BGs or going 8-30 in arenas every week they will get fully geared and when they do, they will stomp people in greens and blues in random BGs simply due to the gear difference. They are no better as players; but their characters are now strong. Like I said, the illusion of improvement. This keeps them paying and there are way more of these people than those that desire 'competitiveness'.

So all in all, while implementing many of the things you suggest would perhaps make PvP feel better, they are going to severely hurt the bottom line. Therefore it has no chance of being implemented, ever. Why would a company implement a change that might cost them millions?

Honest question: do games featured in competitive circuits like MLG make money off these tournaments? Or is just a fame thing?
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90 Human Priest
6525
12/06/2012 02:22 PMPosted by Elgunaz
So all in all, while implementing many of the things you suggest would perhaps make PvP feel better, they are going to severely hurt the bottom line. Therefore it has no chance of being implemented, ever. Why would a company implement a change that might cost them millions?


How does adding an optional pvp realm that is similar to the tournament realm hurt pve? They could offer full gear on this realm and keep the main pve based game exactly the same. Does blizzard lose a million subscribers every time they open up the tournament realm? Clearly not.

This is where the argument comes in that the aspects of the game should be separated this allow players that like character progression in the way that you mentioned to still get that from a pve based game. They could even still have BG's on the regular game so that that horrible player can feel good about himself in pvp.

The success of this game in pve does not have to hurt it in pvp.
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90 Human Priest
6525
12/06/2012 02:22 PMPosted by Elgunaz
Honest question: do games featured in competitive circuits like MLG make money off these tournaments? Or is just a fame thing?

I'm not sure if Blizzard makes direct revenue but it does provide an effective method of advertisement. Starcraft 2 being in mlg is one thing that motivated me to buy the game. I was interested in a competitive game. I'm sure that WoW being in MLG would be nothing but beneficial to Blizzard.
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Well thought out post OP. Thanks for taking the time to put this together.
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90 Human Rogue
6740
12/06/2012 10:26 AMPosted by Getsomesmite
I want this thread to live forever.


Let's make it happen. Need to get more replies and up votes to get some attention on these issues.
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90 Human Priest
6525
12/07/2012 09:39 AMPosted by Malhavoc
Well thought out post OP. Thanks for taking the time to put this together.


Thanks for taking the time to reply :)
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90 Orc Shaman
6760
For WoW to be balanced they would need a complete rework and i don't see this happening anywhere in the future sadly with pve being the main priority.
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90 Human Priest
6525
12/08/2012 08:42 AMPosted by Clemik
For WoW to be balanced they would need a complete rework and i don't see this happening anywhere in the future sadly with pve being the main priority.


I don't see what reason they have to not separate the two aspects of the game as has been mentioned here many times. A rework of pve mechanics is not necessary if they just split the games.
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90 Human Priest
6525
bump
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
2900
Great post

I agree with the idea that i shouldn't have to grind to be competitive. WoW caters to the people who spend much if not most of their free time grinding for gear. I don't have the time or interest to spend my time farming gear so i can try and compete

This is the main reason i recently cancelled my account. Not being dramatic, i just don't have the time to put into a game like this where i pay $15 a month to get owned by people with no lives. LoL is free and if you know what you're doing you can log in at any time, as little as you want and dominate some people for free.

Games are changing and blizzard needs to keep up
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90 Night Elf Priest
7865
Culling Disc Priest's offensive capability is really what I think made me lose interest this expansion. I've always loved hybrid classes, and love the style of disc in world PVP. In Cata I loved going out ganking, whether I had friends with me that day or not. Sure, its a healer spec primarily, but I loved building it for DPS and playing that way. Ya, it wasn't meant for BGs or Arena, but damn, it was how I had fun.

Now I'm just like every other healer.
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90 Human Priest
6525
12/11/2012 07:02 PMPosted by Chucksmith
Games are changing and blizzard needs to keep up


Sounds about right.
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90 Undead Priest
6600
Well here's the way I see it. They used to have a stance of "we don't care for esports" coming into Cata. From the look of the rampant streaming, interviews claiming that they wanted Arena Spectator UI to continue evolving, and the highlighted blizzcon tournament, it looks like they've changed the stance.

On talks of balance, they've done well with hotfixes after the 5.1 fiasco. I'd say they're already well on track to get this game the attention they want it to.

While I don't see point three being brought to light anytime soon, I'd say they're well on their way to what you want.

Me personally? Couldn't care for it, love playing the game, but unless CC is reduced, I don't see much fun in watching it. Is that a personal concern? Eh, it's debatable. I'm more interested in who wins and more of the player rivalry as frivolous as it sounds. To be succinct, Woundman v. Reckful has been a battle of calibers that I have loved for years.
Edited by Conspiracy on 12/11/2012 9:46 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
6525
12/11/2012 09:45 PMPosted by Conspiracy
I'd say they're well on their way to what you want.


They haven't changed any fundamental mechanics. I didn't make any significant points about balance in the way of numbers. Sure they can make changes to balance out damage/healing but that doesn't really fix the underlying issues. The class designs are still far more boring than they once were and their design philosophy is still flawed. Balance =/= interrest. Rock paper scisors is a great game for balance but its not especially fun.

In fact, I'd say they're going in the exact opposite direction that I would suggest. One example of this is in the pvp power change. This just forces classes to fit their role as damage/healing more than filling their role as priest/druid etc. The pvp power change forces hybrids to play more like pure dps/healing specs. It's now far harder for a disc priest to go offensive and far harder for a shadow priest to help with off healing. This leads to disc just spamming healing like every other boring healer and shadow dealing straight damage like every other boring damage. There's no uniqueness.

We could debate the balance of shadow off heals and other things like that, but as I have already stated this is not about balance, it's about mechanics and interest. If i want to spam straight damage spells why would I roll a shadow priest, the class that has heals? If I wanted to spam heals all day, why would I roll disc, the class that is supposed to "carefully balance the use of their offensive powers when tasked with keeping their party alive" ( http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/class/priest )?
Edited by Getsomesmite on 12/11/2012 11:41 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
6525
Culling Disc Priest's offensive capability is really what I think made me lose interest this expansion. I've always loved hybrid classes, and love the style of disc in world PVP. In Cata I loved going out ganking, whether I had friends with me that day or not. Sure, its a healer spec primarily, but I loved building it for DPS and playing that way. Ya, it wasn't meant for BGs or Arena, but damn, it was how I had fun.

Now I'm just like every other healer.


Homogenization at its best. -_-
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I support this 100 percent. Too bad GC will dismiss it with some sarcastic reply.
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