5.1 Lynx Rush Changes

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90 Pandaren Hunter
13870
SInce 5.1 has come out, lynx rush has taken a serious nerf. I am wondering if lynx rush is still viable for raids? Does the dmg still scale with mastery? Does the dmg of the DoT out weigh the dmg of blink strike or Murder of Crows?
I did not orginally go with Blink strike due to more GCDs and the fact that the CD of Lynx Rush lines up almost perfectly with Rabid. I also don't like A Murder of Crows due to the cost of Focus.
Looking for input of other hunters. Please post any kind of logs that could back up your findings. And honestly will probably not take anyone who is not 90, a hunter, or completed raid bosses multiple times. E.I. looking for other hunter in raiding guilds.... not the average player.
90 Pandaren Hunter
14925
Lynx Rush does more sustained DPS now than it did pre-5.1. However, it is still inferior to Murder of Crows. This is based on the simulations that I have run for myself on female dwarf.
90 Draenei Hunter
13880
Murder of Crows provides the most DPS out of the 3. You pop the first one when you are in wrath so the focus cost shouldn't be an issue.

Just grabbing my log from last week:

MoC on heroic garajal: 2,023,465
Lynx on heroic feng: 984,208

You can also check worldoflogs.com and see the dps between the abilities on top parsing hunters.
4 Draenei Mage
0
12/05/2012 09:59 AMPosted by Zoeÿ
Does the dmg of the DoT out weigh the dmg of blink strike or Murder of Crows?


No, MoC has always been and still is the highest DPS single target talent in the 75 tier.

Source: Math.
90 Troll Hunter
14735
Murder of Crows provides the most DPS out of the 3. You pop the first one when you are in wrath so the focus cost shouldn't be an issue.

Just grabbing my log from last week:

MoC on heroic garajal: 2,023,465
Lynx on heroic feng: 984,208

You can also check worldoflogs.com and see the dps between the abilities on top parsing hunters.

This is slightly misleading, MoC has an additional Focus Cost per use that a build with LR will use for other damage.

What was your total damage difference, same boss? (If you can provide it).

Utilizing FD, I see only an ~1% increase in using MoC of LR. Still a gain, but not as major as one you are presenting.
Edited by Verdash on 12/5/2012 10:08 AM PST
4 Draenei Mage
0
FD shows LR to be a loss of 772 DPS, which works out to almost 250,000 damage in a 6 minute fight, assuming there are no damage buffs. This is an unacceptable loss to any progression raider.

If you don't want to min/max, then don't, and use whatever talents you feel like.
90 Draenei Hunter
13880
12/05/2012 10:08 AMPosted by Verdash
What was your total damage difference, same boss? (If you can provide it).


I only use Lynx on AoE fights (wind lord and sometimes feng heroic), so you will never see a Lynx and MoC difference from me on the same boss.

Let's look at the #1 parsing hunter for Garajal. One is using MoC and the other using Lynx:

MoC: 1,304,261
Lynx: 733861

The fight times were pretty close (within 10 seconds).

I never claimed it was a massive difference, but the higher DPS is still the higher DPS, even if it's just 1%. That's good enough reason for me to use it. Doesn't mean you have to if you don't want to. It's completely up to you.
90 Troll Hunter
14735
FD shows LR to be a loss of 772 DPS, which works out to almost 250,000 damage in a 6 minute fight, assuming there are no damage buffs. This is an unacceptable loss to any progression raider.

If you don't want to min/max, then don't, and use whatever talents you feel like.

The question was viability. The difference is minor, when compared to health pools of 150 million (Feng - 10man normal..for the most part, HP just goes up).

250k / 150mil is 0.16667% - RNG plays more of a role than that difference.

I am not saying everyone, including progression raiders must use LR, I am just saying that you will more than likely not notice a major difference, unless you happen to a player who consistently performs above 99% of your theoritical maximum.

The vast majority of players, including many progression orientated (but not World first racing guilds), will be just fine using LR over MoC, if the ability suits them better (i.e. there is a perk to having one less Focus costing CD to juggle, especially for players more in the middle of the skill range).

Edit:
12/05/2012 10:15 AMPosted by Mezasu
I never claimed it was a massive difference, but the higher DPS is still the higher DPS, even if it's just 1%. That's good enough reason for me to use it. Doesn't mean you have to if you don't want to. It's completely up to you.

1st, I was mostly referring to someone who doesn't notice, or thinks of the difference in Focus might see LR as completely blown out of the water (2 mil vs 1 mil) based on your thread. What I just quoted here was the only point I was attempting to make. The difference is noticeable, but relatively minor +)
Edited by Verdash on 12/5/2012 12:12 PM PST
4 Draenei Mage
0
In more than just progression guilds, you can easily wipe sub 200k on a boss and take another 2 hours to kill it. Happens quite frequently. People who want to optimize their DPS will always go with what does more. Especially when the usage differences are so minimal.

MoC requires more focus, which is easy to manage and made trivial with BW. It also requires less GCDs, and does more damage. On some fights like Protectors you can also cheese the meters and have it on 2 targets during the pull.

Discussing what's viable is mostly pointless. You're either min/maxing so you'll use what's best, or you aren't, at which point it doesn't matter what you use. I don't see the point in putting effort into finding what the best middle of the road option is. 'What is the most optimal way I can be mediocre?' is essentially what that is.
Edited by Magnolia on 12/5/2012 1:10 PM PST
90 Troll Hunter
14735
Discussing what's viable is mostly pointless. You're either min/maxing so you'll use what's best, or you aren't, at which point it doesn't matter what you use. I don't see the point in putting effort into finding what the best middle of the road option is. 'What is the most optimal way I can be mediocre?' is essentially what that is.

Because there a lot more variables than what is the theoretical best, especially when the difference is actually minor under the assumption that maximum effectiveness is reach with both options.

Either way, the question was if LR was still viable. It could be the OP simply likes it better for whatever reason, and was asking how detrimental it is to use it (which, is minor).

Back when Aimed Dump MM was theoretical king, people still preferred SV because it was less of a hassle, and not as prone to random occurrences messing with your rotation/cycle. The same thing here (albeit, a much smaller scale) is present with MoC. It is the best end result choice, but it is more of a hassle. Either hassle or damage, the difference is minor (but still noticeable).
4 Draenei Mage
0
12/05/2012 01:16 PMPosted by Verdash
but it is more of a hassle.


If anyone thinks having 60 focus available every 2 minutes is a 'hassle' I think they have bigger problems than MoC vs. LR.
90 Troll Hunter
14735
but it is more of a hassle.


If anyone thinks having 60 focus available every 2 minutes is a 'hassle' I think they have bigger problems than MoC vs. LR.

The hassle involved is as large as the difference in damage.

Noticeably, but effectively minor and less of an impact than a quirky RNG streak.

Edit: And depending on timing, it isn't just 60 Focus, but 60 Focus plus ~40 for Nuke, and 15+ for lv 90 talents. Sure, the highly skilled are more than capable of planning ahead to account for this, but simply being able to do nothing more than insert a GCD in the middle of your Focus juggling is less of a hassle than inserting a GCD and a large chunk of Focus spending in the middle of your Focus juggling.

Either way, minor hassle difference, minor damage difference - both are equally viable choices, but MoC is the optimal choice.
Edited by Verdash on 12/5/2012 2:02 PM PST
90 Worgen Hunter
5995
12/05/2012 10:08 AMPosted by Verdash
This is slightly misleading, MoC has an additional Focus Cost per use that a build with LR will use for other damage.

Best thing said in this thread. I personally prefer LR for several reasons, focus cost being one of them. The other is the fact that even with the extended length on LR bleed, AMOC still takes an extra 5 seconds, and that is an extra 5 seconds I'm not willing to wait to re-use it the 2nd time after readiness. The entire debate about AMOC vs LR is, indeed, mostly about personal preference as well as about fight length/mechanics. For example, on a fight like Spirit Kings, AMOC may come out well behind because you might find yourself having to either delay it's use because of a boss dying soon, or clip some ticks for the same reason. Every fight is different.

12/05/2012 10:14 AMPosted by Magnolia
This is an unacceptable loss to any progression raider.

lol. You might want to switch to de-condescending. 250k damage on any raid boss is the difference between 2 crits. Nobody in their right mind is losing sleep over that. Like I said before, a shorter fight that would allow you to get in an extra LR or even 2 would come out on top as well. A 6 minute fight would allow for only 5 AMOC uses, including a 2nd readiness, whereas LR would allow for 6.

That extra focus cost could also make up significantly for any damage difference. 5 AMOC uses = 300 focus, minus 60 for the two that might line up with BW, so 240. 240 focus = a potential extra 12 arcane shots squeezed in.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ebu90xfg5e70u2ec/spell/3044/?s=5981&e=6352
My arcane shots hit for an average of 32k, crit for 66k. Assuming roughly 4 of those 12 extra will crit, that's a net damage of approximately 500-530k. ( Of course, this is not purely bonus damage that an AMOC user would not get, but it could make a difference)
On this Heroic Feng kill, my Lynx rush did 2,228k damage. More than enough for me to feel content in using it.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ebu90xfg5e70u2ec/details/16/?s=5981&e=6352
4 Draenei Mage
0
For example, on a fight like Spirit Kings, AMOC may come out well behind because you might find yourself having to either delay it's use because of a boss dying soon, or clip some ticks for the same reason. Every fight is different.


This was much more relevant before LR was turned into a DoT. It's now essentially the same thing as MoC, except it has a ramp up time and is 5 seconds shorter. The amount of times a boss will die and MoC will be clipped but LR wouldn't is very small, and not really a consideration.

Regarding your numbers ramble, the statement 'MoC does 722 DPS more than LR' already includes the factors of focus cost, and GCDs, and all that other good stuff. So nothing you're saying changes the fact that MoC does more damage.

250k damage on any raid boss is the difference between 2 crits. Nobody in their right mind is losing sleep over that.


This is the kind of thing that only someone with little raid experience would say. People who've been raiding a long time have all encountered times when you wipe at 0.1% and end up spending another few hours to get the kill. If you take the thought of '250k damage isn't anything' and extrapolate that same attitude to all the DPS in your raid, you're losing ~1.5 mil in a 2 healed 10 man. On any relevant progression boss, that is very significant. See BL's Elegon kill for the reason why min/maxers do what they do.
90 Draenei Hunter
13880
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKJyXlwdcOM

Method loses world first Empress kill to 173k HP.

It matters to people like this. It's fine if it doesn't for you or your raid, but higher numbers are higher numbers and situations like these are the reasons why people do what they do.
90 Pandaren Hunter
13870
Looking over the post now. thanks for the input
90 Night Elf Hunter
Ego
12490
I've found crows to do significantly more damage. Just learn to manage focus and BW better and you'll love it
90 Pandaren Hunter
18290
12/05/2012 10:07 AMPosted by Magnolia
Source: Math.


You came to the wrong neighborhood.

I like Crowstorm over LR just for the fact that LR can be parried :l
90 Blood Elf Hunter
5620
12/15/2012 11:37 PMPosted by Leorina
I like Crowstorm over LR just for the fact that LR can be parried :l
90 Night Elf Druid
7075
Anyway you look at it they're all 3 crap talents
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