Curtailing bad behavior

90 Night Elf Hunter
10050
The question I was raising wasn't so much should blizzard police inappropriate behavior, which yes they definitely should. But rather at what point should they actively step in? And on that note someone cursing in trade or saying something slightly offensive no they shouldn't step in.


Yes well, see ... that's the issue.

Someone cursing in Trade or saying something "slightly offensive" in Trade is exactly the point at which Blizzard should step in. Because they have an established set of rules that everyone playing has agreed to that says that sort of behavior is unacceptable.

They've established the rules (which I think are pretty reasonable, speaking for myself), those rules need to be enforced, or else it tells people that the rules don't matter. Blizzard set the rules up before they released the game, and everyone playing agreed to them before starting to play. That's a contract. Blizzard needs to take steps to enforce it.

It's perfectly reasonable to open a discussion on whether or not a given rule is worth while, and on whether or not a given rule should be changed, but that's not the issue here. The issue is lack of enforcement of existing rules, and the message that sends to the player base. And ... the level of toxicity it engenders in the community.
90 Human Warlock
0
12/06/2012 01:16 PMPosted by Sakiri
Yea because saying the "n" word and murder are exactly the same thing.....


There's a rule in game against calling someone that just like there's a rule against murder IRL.

This game is not IRL. Real life doesn't have rules against most of what you say. Slander and libel are against the law in many contexts. This however usually doesn't include sexist or racist comments used as blanket statements. Used against me personally and in a detrimental way however can net you a lawsuit.

Just an example.

However, Blizzard says "Don't call people the N word" and thus, it should not be done.

Your "Freedom of Speech" only applies to government entities. No city, state or federal law can regulate your ability to call someone that, or drop F bombs everywhere. Private entities however, can. Your employer can fire you if you constantly curse and it's in the employee handbook of "things not to do".

And to the idiot that said sexual harassment is physical only, you don't have a job, do you? Because it can also be verbal, and telling someone of the opposite gender the wrong thing can be one of the quickest ways you get fired.

There are rules, they are enforced some people just don't like how they are enforced and that they might occasionally see something that offends their delicate sensibilities


If they're enforced, then please tell me how someone with obvious vulgarities in their name still has theirs?

Guy on Suramar here has a compound word for his name. The second half of that name has gotten people on this forum banned for language. So why is it allowed in game?


Rawr someone said things in trade that might have offended someone lets ban everyone who may or may not have said something offensive in the past. And after we ban them we shall post the names of their toons and their real life names and addresses on the forums. I want justice! I want justice! Lets hunt them down and burn them alive, yea!!!!! See before long this is what YOU will become irl. If you feel so strongly about how people act in a video game its obvious that your real life personality is showing.
90 Goblin Shaman
9990
The question I was raising wasn't so much should blizzard police inappropriate behavior, which yes they definitely should. But rather at what point should they actively step in? And on that note someone cursing in trade or saying something slightly offensive no they shouldn't step in.


They should step in if it breaks ToS

Plain and Simple

Otherwise, they're not rules, they're suggestions

If ToS is broken.. DEAL with it. You're the ones who WROTE the ToS.. now ENFORCE them like it actually means something.

No one is saying you can't do these things in-game.. just not in public. Do what you want in a Guild... all the more power to ya, that's what they're there for.

example;

As much as I'll be the first to jump down someone's throat about being racist in public, my guild is a bunch of different ethnicities when it comes to make-up

Goofing around one night, Vent and /gchat kind of became a Do the Right Thing moment of people goofing around because one group was mexican, one group jewish, brazilians, Canadians, the list went on and on. I myself am what i call American Mutt.. out of over 30 ethnicities, the only mjor ones i have are a mix of American Indian and French/Irish Creole. and those are the "pure" sides of my family. My mother is Serbian Gypsy. (MANY nationalities)

So one of the guys in vent cracked a Canadian joke. the Canadian guy turned around and cracked a joke on him because he was Jewish, one of the mexican girls laughed.. so.. ok, you get the point from here...

You gold-teeth-gold-chain-wearin', fried-chicken-and-biscuit-eatin', monkey, ape, baboon, big thigh, fast-runnin', high-jumpin', spear-chuckin', three-hundred-sixty-degree-basketball-dunkin'

it basically became a night of racist jokes back and forth and EVERYONE was laughing for HOURS. So much so, that we now have dedicated Tuesday as "racist Tuesday" where ANYTHING goes for one day in guild. It's pretty well known in our guild that you either have a thick skin and sense of humor on Tuesdays, or don't log in. We had someone come new to the guild, and even after explained.. /gquit and screamed at people "you're a bunch of racist ^&%&holes" after someone told a joke about a black man and a large pizza. the reply IN GUILD was "but... but... it's TUESDAY!!" the comedy of it was.. the guy who said that AND the joke.. IS BLACK!!!

But that's GUILD!
It's private!
It's OUR choice what we do.

but it doesn't overflow to trade chat

that's the difference between "all in good fun" and "unwarranted"
90 Human Warlock
0


Rawr someone said things in trade that might have offended someone lets ban everyone who may or may not have said something offensive in the past. And after we ban them we shall post the names of their toons and their real life names and addresses on the forums. I want justice! I want justice! Lets hunt them down and burn them alive, yea!!!!! See before long this is what YOU will become irl. If you feel so strongly about how people act in a video game its obvious that your real life personality is showing.


I'm all for it LOL. but really.. you know what the rules are. You've agreed to them. If you can't follow the rules, and you get punished.. you deserve what you got. How about following the rules in the first place??


I really try both irl and in game to not say anything so horrible that anyone would get butthurt about it. Kinda hard for me because I really don't get offended by anything so the lines are blurred for me. I get annoyed when people want to take this stuff to extremes though.
90 Night Elf Priest
7515
"Grow up and ignore it" is championed by those who don't want their behavior judged.
90 Night Elf Druid
15850
12/06/2012 01:31 PMPosted by Tasida
The question I was raising wasn't so much should blizzard police inappropriate behavior, which yes they definitely should. But rather at what point should they actively step in? And on that note someone cursing in trade or saying something slightly offensive no they shouldn't step in.


Yes well, see ... that's the issue.

Someone cursing in Trade or saying something "slightly offensive" in Trade is exactly the point at which Blizzard should step in. Because they have an established set of rules that everyone playing has agreed to that says that sort of behavior is unacceptable.

They've established the rules (which I think are pretty reasonable, speaking for myself), those rules need to be enforced, or else it tells people that the rules don't matter. Blizzard set the rules up before they released the game, and everyone playing agreed to them before starting to play. That's a contract. Blizzard needs to take steps to enforce it.

It's perfectly reasonable to open a discussion on whether or not a given rule is worth while, and on whether or not a given rule should be changed, but that's not the issue here. The issue is lack of enforcement of existing rules, and the message that sends to the player base. And ... the level of toxicity it engenders in the community.


Well that's the thing blizzard has laid out the rules, they haven't laid out exactly what the punishments should be in an objective way, pretty much everything says may result in something. Trade chat is a good example, yes the TOU says you shouldn't curse but it doesn't say that for example using one curse word should be say a three day ban, currently the punishment is you report them and they lose the pleasure of interacting with you.

Obviously there are a number of opinions about whether that's enough or not.
90 Draenei Shaman
13805
Grow a pair! Just because you find something offensive doesn't mean we all do.
Show some consideration. Just because you're content to stew in your body odor doesn't mean you shouldn't shower on occasion. Offensive language is the same way. What does it hurt for you to find less offensive ways to convey your sentiments? Think of refraining from using profanity as the equivalent of applying deodorant every morning.
90 Pandaren Shaman
13640
Report it every time you see it. It is up to us to police ourselves since there are so many users with so many toons. Every example that violates rules gets reported by my wife and myself so there are at least two complaints registered at one time to hopefully draw more attention.


Same here. But nothing happens. Ever.
90 Human Warlock
0
"Ban everyone who says the something slightly offensive" is championed by those who don't want to grow up and face the reality that they subject themselves to something they dont have to.


I fixed that for you.
90 Dwarf Warrior
11470
12/05/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Also, as harsh as this is going to sound, some people need to buck up and get some thick skin. Yes, there is racism. Yes, there is sexism. That doesn't make it okay, but those jokes have been around since cavemen and will probably be around until we discover an alien species to hate more than ourselves... and the sexism will probably stay even then. Point being, it's there. Either deal with it, learn to laugh at the harmlessness of most of it, or just start using your /ignore list.


I must strongly disagree with this sentiment. Just letting it slide simply allows the in-game environment to become more toxic. We've provided the tools to allow each realm population to help shape its environment. It's important to use them, and use them consistently.


I fully agree with your stance/feelings on this, Daxxarri, but as you say, "letting it slide simply allows the in-game environment to become more toxic." It appears to us, the players, that Blizzard is the one "letting it slide", because nothing happens to these clowns. What we want is to see some action that is backing up what you are saying.

I'm an advocate of publicly shaming such people. Respond to the people who file reports with more than just "thanks, we'll look into it"; after a review, respond to the reporter and tell them "we don't think anything actionable took place," or "your report was indeed warranted, and the player has been warned/temporarily banned/permanently banned." Public outing is a great deterrent. People might think twice about what they post if it becomes public record, and could potentially be seen by guilds they are applying to, or the like.

But do I expect that to come to pass? No, not realistically. At least let us see the constant offenders stop appearing in chat with their nonsense as frequently. We won't be given the details of what happened, but we can at least see that SOMETHING made them stop (either a ban or a warning).

We just want some evidence that you're truly trying, and not just spouting rhetoric on the forums.
90 Draenei Shaman
13805
12/05/2012 10:46 PMPosted by Salt
I like Guild Wars 2's instant 72 hour ban, bam! Thanks for coming enjoy your holiday. The diffence in community between WoW and GW2 shows because of it.
I used to play tons of Guild Wars and I have to say that being able to keep trade chat on without fearing exposing my kids to anything inappropriate is the one thing I miss most. Whatever else can be said about ArenaNet, they know how to police their public channels. The first day I logged onto WoW I was amazed at the level of spam and harassment that routinely appeared in General and Trade chat. I estimate that 95% of Trade talk isn't even trade related. I've even seen players who were told to "quit spamming" when attempting to make a legitimate trade. I honestly don't know why we even have to report people for language. If the game already knows enough to filter something through the MLF it should also be able to flag it for review. The public channels have always been out of control and the fact that they've remained that way for years damages the credibility of Blizzard's insistence that it takes this stuff seriously.
Edited by Ronduwil on 12/6/2012 1:57 PM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
13640
Rawr someone said things in trade that might have offended someone lets ban everyone who may or may not have said something offensive in the past. And after we ban them we shall post the names of their toons and their real life names and addresses on the forums. I want justice! I want justice! Lets hunt them down and burn them alive, yea!!!!! See before long this is what YOU will become irl. If you feel so strongly about how people act in a video game its obvious that your real life personality is showing.


If you'd like to call me a narc for calling the cops on lawbreakers, go for it. Because I do.

Yes, I called the cops on that white VW bus driving without headlights, doing 30 and swerving in a 65 zone at 10 pm.
Yes, I called the cops when that party across the street where they crammed 60 people into one house ended with two broken windows and an eviction of the tenants.
Yes, I call city management when people dump clothes, household items and electronics on the corner and put "free" signs on it, because they don't get taken before it rains and they sit there for a week.

Yes, I expect people to follow the rules.

I don't report swearing in Trade. I do report sexist, racist statements. I report any "jokes" involving violence in certain contexts. And if your name is a poop joke, you can bet it's being reported too.

There are rules for a reason and I expect you to follow them. Don't like it? Get out.

12/06/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Tenebrus
I really try both irl and in game to not say anything so horrible that anyone would get butthurt about it. Kinda hard for me because I really don't get offended by anything so the lines are blurred for me. I get annoyed when people want to take this stuff to extremes though.


As I said before, it doesn't matter if I'm offended, you're offended, little Timmy is offended or Jesus Himself. It does. Not. Matter.

The fact is, there's a rule against it, therefore IT SHOULD NOT BE DONE. And they should be ENFORCING that rule.

Doesn't matter if it doesn't offend me. It's against the rules and therefore it gets reported. I'm the most foul mouthed person any of my friends know. I don't spew it in Trade.
90 Gnome Rogue
14165
12/06/2012 12:52 PMPosted by Tenebrus
Sad, welcome to the new Amerika.


Please explain to me exactly what you think it means when you spell America with a k?
90 Draenei Shaman
13805
12/06/2012 01:42 PMPosted by Tenebrus
"Ban everyone who says the something slightly offensive" is championed by those who don't want to grow up and face the reality that they subject themselves to something they dont have to.


I fixed that for you.
Actually you kind of do have to. The MLF doesn't filter out ASCII !@#$%es. It doesn't recognize every single variant of the F-bomb. It doesn't spot suggestive sentences formed from words that are typically "benign" in other contexts.

That having been said, "growing up" includes recognizing that your way isn't the only way and that sometimes you need to bring your public behavior into compliance with others' expectations in order to get ahead in this world. What's you're advocating amounts to, "I'm going to take my ball and go home because I don't like how you play." That attitude works in 4th grade, but it's not going to do you any favors in the big people world.
90 Night Elf Hunter
10050
Well that's the thing blizzard has laid out the rules, they haven't laid out exactly what the punishments should be in an objective way, pretty much everything says may result in something. Trade chat is a good example, yes the TOU says you shouldn't curse but it doesn't say that for example using one curse word should be say a three day ban, currently the punishment is you report them and they lose the pleasure of interacting with you.

Obviously there are a number of opinions about whether that's enough or not.


Well, I'll agree that which specific penalties should apply to which specific actions could be better defined.

One person saying one curse word in Trade doesn't really need aggressive enforcement. But that IS against the existing rules. It DOES need someone from Blizzard to say "please don't do that" and it needs Blizzard to remember they said that warning to that account. Everyone makes a mistake now and again. But if someone is making a habit of breaking the rules then they need stronger penalties applied.

There is an existing definition of penalties: https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/account-penalties

But the issue right now is that people tromp blithely over the line pretty much constantly, and there's no ability for the average player to witness any enforcement actions. All WE see is people ignoring the rules and getting away with it. And that's really not acceptable. Traffic laws are the obvious analogy here. The police maintain a visible presence and THAT'S what has the greatest impact on motorist behavior.

Better definitions are all to the good, but Blizzard needs to be a bit more obvious and a bit more consistent in their enforcement policies. (In my opinion).

Edit: If Blizzard had someone with a GM tag step into Trade during a salvo of bad behavior and say "Watch the language please, everyone using racist/curse/etc language is getting a 3 day ban on using public channels starting now" that would have a huge impact. If something like that happened even once a week, it would have a huge impact on how people behave in public channels.
Edited by Tasida on 12/6/2012 2:11 PM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
13805
12/06/2012 02:05 PMPosted by Jawaka
Sad, welcome to the new Amerika.


Please explain to me exactly what you think it means when you spell America with a k?

Not that it's an accurate description of the issue, but here it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_(TV_miniseries)

Just because we live in a country where the government is prohibited from arresting you for rudeness doesn't mean that society has to tolerate you or that private businesses have to let you alienate their customers.
90 Gnome Rogue
14165
I'm suggested it before and I'll suggest it again.

Blizzard puts together a list of what they consider inappropriate words. If you type one of those words into a public chat channel like Trade you're automatically muted for 15m. Each offense increases the length of time that you're muted.
90 Draenei Death Knight
12200
12/05/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Don't respond, or get involved in an argument.


This^

If you feed the trolls, they keep comming back. I dont know why people dont listen when I tell them this. If you dont respond, what are they gonna do? Spam filter stops them from spamming you so the worst they can do is keep posting the same stupid stuff. Eventually, when nobody has responded, they will realize that its pointless and go away. If you respond or reply though, they come back. Like geese or other wild animals. Feed em once and they come back.
Edited by Nakiaginik on 12/6/2012 2:11 PM PST
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