iLvl 500 rShammy vs iLvl 473 discPriest?

12/06/2012 07:32 AMPosted by Tarski
Yeah, I agree with your points, not sure why you attributed that quote to me.


Sorry :( For some reason I thought the quote would attribute the right person :P
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90 Human Priest
17065
It is LFR.

LFR.

In LFR, damage is pathetic.

In LFR, you have people pushing just to feel good on meters.

In LFR, you have people auto-following and just getting carried.

in LFR, you have people not caring and just going 'whatever'.

In LFR. A disc can toss a bubble and absorb an entire mechanic and beat everyone even before the race has started. There is no competition.

In LFR, a disc priest can cover a raid with Spirit Shell POHs and proceed to run into every single Wind Bomb and look like a god on the meter.

In LFR, a disc just plain owns because of low damage output and how absorbs work.

E.g. LFR damage is 100. A bubble absorbs 150. Voila, Disc just took everything. That is basically it. It doesn't matter if the shaman is ilv 500 or 600 or ilv 1000. If the ilv463 bubble eats it up, it eats it up. And there's quite literally nothing the shaman can do.

When a disc in involved, everyone else gets sloppy seconds...or none at all.
Edited by Zamboozle on 12/6/2012 9:42 AM PST
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90 Human Monk
6655
One of my fellow healers from our guild's main run just leveled disc to 90. In ilvl 460 he got a world 8 overall ranking on one of the encounters, world 4 as disc. So - to answer your question - a disc in minimal gear can absolutely dominate. There are simply not enough heals in LFR. To prove this point, I went to LFR with him last night on this toon and healed as I would the main raid (where I typically top meters). I had over 70% overhealing on several encounters just to get within 10k HPS of his healing ... if I was lucky.

That being said, I cannot say whether or not you were against an equally skilled disc or you were playing optimally. Next time, check your overall throughput including overhealing. If you aren't above his heals including overhealing, then I'd say there's a problem.
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LFR is a joke in terms of healing. Half the time I just atonement heal and still top meters.
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100 Draenei Paladin
8535
If you're talking about winning the meters, it's not tough to do. It's basically Heal Sniping and the best way to Heal Snipe is to use an Absorb. Since Shamans have zero absorbs and no powerful instants outside of a CD, it's very tough for a Shaman to "Heal Snipe" against Disc Priests and Holy Paladins. The only way a Shaman can murder the meters is if everyone's HP is kept really low constantly.

That being said, does that mean just because a Disc Priest has an advantage against a Shaman and should win the meters most of the time that there is no problem? No, but that is subject to more rigorous healer balancing topics that are already being discussed in other threads on this forum.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
12/06/2012 07:13 AMPosted by Faolain
so long as the boss goes down and people aren't dying due to lack of healing then what does it matter


I can tell you why it matters, why meters are very important for the player who wishes to improve their healing.

First, the raw HPS(healing per second) number can, with some know-how of the encounter and the healing classes involved, show you a rough estimate of your general performance in the encounter.

Second, if you are performing outside of what you would consider your norms for the encounter(as in, too low or much higher than expected), meters like Recount can break down exactly what your spell usage was, and how it contributed to your performance. This can be very helpful, as it can easily identify ways of healing you should perhaps avoid or embrace. For instance, in healing heroic Blade Lord last night, I found that Chi Torpedo was unexpectedly my #1 heal in the fight. This knowledge enabled me to adjust my healing strategy accordingly for the fight(as in, make sure to Torpedo around after every unseen strike). Without this breakdown of spell usage, it can be very difficult to determine what exactly you are doing wrong, or right.

Third, it helps the raid leader(s) identify potential problems and nip them in the bud. Just because you managed to kill a boss does not mean that what you did doesn't matter. It may be the case that the same problems you were having on one boss that you managed to kill anyway end up showing up on another boss, and causing your team to fail. In other words, it is not enough to just kill bosses and forget about the performance of individual members of the team. Rather, a team that really wants to improve(which hopefully includes all of them) has to encourage an environment of personal accountability, where every member tries their best to contribute as much as they can, and to eliminate as many mistakes as possible.

Fourth, and tied into all of the other points, is that it can help players identify how to improve their healing by looking at the meters of a player of the same spec. Lets say you are about equally geared/itemized as another healer of the same spec in your raid group, yet they manage to outheal you by a significant amount(significant being more than RNG). How would you go about figuring out the reasons for the disparity in healing numbers? Well, without a meter you would be left to guess, or to ask the player, which would elicit a subjective account of how they healed. If you had a meter, you could just look at what healed for the most, what was cast the most, what the other player's activity was. For instance, in the aforementioned heroic Blade Lord encounter, I noticed the other MW Monk was kinda falling behind on the numbers(more than was justified by the gear disparity). So,to help them figure out why the numbers are lower than they should be, I checked out my spell usage compared to their's. Just doing that simple step, I was able to identify the problem: they were SCK too much, and that was causing them to go OOM. With a simple adjustment to Jab for the chi generation, and encouraging more chi torpedos, they were able to pull themselves up a bit more.

Now, all that said, of course there are the people who decide to post meters just to brag or whatnot, or to bring others down. That isn't a problem with meters, rather, it is a problem with the player. Like all powerful tools, meters can be used for good or ill. Don't let the bad uses of them discount the very good uses of them.


Sure.

But that isn't what I was saying.

The OP said he came in second by 10k HPS. THAT is why I said, "If the boss is dying, why does it matter who came in first on the meters?"
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100 Draenei Paladin
8535
The OP said he came in second by 10k HPS. THAT is why I said, "If the boss is dying, why does it matter who came in first on the meters?"


Because some people can't afford nice cars, they like to brag about HPS instead.
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440
I wouldn't worry too much, but considering equal skill in terms of "meters" rshamans are in last place for 10m. That doesn't say much but hey might as well answer this thread.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13820
The OP said he came in second by 10k HPS. THAT is why I said, "If the boss is dying, why does it matter who came in first on the meters?"


Actually, he said 10k healing, which is minuscule. D:
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9770
Whether or not any healer will admit it they care about what it shows on recount. Right now with disc shielding everyone so much if they even slightly outgear the fight they make all the other healers numbers look terrible. If you are competitive at all though you want to see your numbers on the top and with the way the shields and disc healing is set up now any healer looks terrible compared to disc if they have any clue what they are doing.
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100 Troll Priest
11965
Meters only matter if the boss has a burn phase.
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90 Dwarf Priest
0
12/06/2012 09:41 AMPosted by Zamboozle
When a disc in involved, everyone else gets sloppy seconds...or none at all.


Thanks, original question answered :)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
12/06/2012 05:20 PMPosted by Elethia
The OP said he came in second by 10k HPS. THAT is why I said, "If the boss is dying, why does it matter who came in first on the meters?"


Actually, he said 10k healing, which is minuscule. D:


Oh. LOL. I assumed it was 10k HPS. Whooops!
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90 Draenei Shaman
11495
The only people who play LFR for meters, are just not good enough to raid Normal/Heroic

I NEVER TRY in LFR, because it is LFR, do I top meters? Nope. But I don't care, some little punk with lower ilvl will top me, and maybe think he is my superior, but noone dies, and everyone gets loot. I walk away with 300k Mana at the end, and I go on about my day.

I know I can pull 60-70k hps steady, I don't need LFR to prove I am a good healer.

To the OP, quit acting like you are better than them, and quit playing LFR for meters, it doesn't make you look good. It just means you are taking LFR way to serious
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9770
Not trying to be rude here but isn't LFR a good place to work on healing? Meaning if you have a chance to work on healing and get the most out of your healing topping meters wouldn't that be a good thing? I mean LFR should be dominated by any shielding healer in good gear so it can be frustrating if your not one of those people but generally the healing is quite poor and a good chance to work on going all out and seeing what you can do to prepare for doing that in heroic fights.

I agree meters don't mean everything and keeping the raid alive is all that matters but generally they kind of go together. With two good healers you can two heal fights that other groups cant and push progression harder by allowing one more dps. Just my two cents.
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90 Dwarf Priest
0
The only people who play LFR for meters, are just not good enough to raid Normal/Heroic

I NEVER TRY in LFR, because it is LFR, do I top meters? Nope. But I don't care, some little punk with lower ilvl will top me, and maybe think he is my superior, but noone dies, and everyone gets loot. I walk away with 300k Mana at the end, and I go on about my day.

I know I can pull 60-70k hps steady, I don't need LFR to prove I am a good healer.

To the OP, quit acting like you are better than them, and quit playing LFR for meters, it doesn't make you look good. It just means you are taking LFR way to serious


I won't pull you off your high horse because I am sure the air is better up there but FYI I only have time to raid 3 hours on a Sat and 3 hours on a Sunday if I am lucky, doing "Normal" and that has nothing to do with my individual skill level. I raid as my tank and thats fine for me. I joined an LFR with my priest and commented to the raid that I was the only person to dispel the magic and the 3 other shaman healers could have helped (the tank died). I left my meters displaying dispels, until the shaman i mentioned commented on my healing. He then left with the message that I should have beaten him on the meters and I was surprised given our gear difference that he should say this. People in this thread have since educated me about bubbles and how mitigation currently makes healing in LFR very difficult for shamans. So my question is answered. I understand LFR isn't pushing the limit of WoW raiding but its all i have time for in the odd hour of an evening, so sorry if this doesn't meet your standards. You obviously have a priority in your life to push the envelope with WoW raiding since you belittle LFR so much.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11495
The only people who play LFR for meters, are just not good enough to raid Normal/Heroic

I NEVER TRY in LFR, because it is LFR, do I top meters? Nope. But I don't care, some little punk with lower ilvl will top me, and maybe think he is my superior, but noone dies, and everyone gets loot. I walk away with 300k Mana at the end, and I go on about my day.

I know I can pull 60-70k hps steady, I don't need LFR to prove I am a good healer.

To the OP, quit acting like you are better than them, and quit playing LFR for meters, it doesn't make you look good. It just means you are taking LFR way to serious


I won't pull you off your high horse because I am sure the air is better up there but FYI I only have time to raid 3 hours on a Sat and 3 hours on a Sunday if I am lucky, doing "Normal" and that has nothing to do with my individual skill level. I raid as my tank and thats fine for me. I joined an LFR with my priest and commented to the raid that I was the only person to dispel the magic and the 3 other shaman healers could have helped (the tank died). I left my meters displaying dispels, until the shaman i mentioned commented on my healing. He then left with the message that I should have beaten him on the meters and I was surprised given our gear difference that he should say this. People in this thread have since educated me about bubbles and how mitigation currently makes healing in LFR very difficult for shamans. So my question is answered. I understand LFR isn't pushing the limit of WoW raiding but its all i have time for in the odd hour of an evening, so sorry if this doesn't meet your standards. You obviously have a priority in your life to push the envelope with WoW raiding since you belittle LFR so much.


The damage from LFR is so low, that pulling ahead just means, you are probably way overhealing, or the other healers are just useless.

Just for fun, We ran a guild run on lfr, in Terrace, and we 2 Healed it, without having any mana problems, just so we could chuckle at how laughable LFR healing is. So yes going for meters doesn't mean anything in LFR, it just means you are trying way too hard to get those numbers. Either Sniping heals, or just way overbubbling and wasting mana. It does not make you look good.

The Shaman in your group was a tool, and he was the one that was taking LFR too serious at the time. So I mean that in no offense to you. But I do hold dear to the fact that the meters there are in no way a reflection of how you would heal a normal raid, not even close.
Edited by Nightfall on 12/9/2012 3:26 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
16080
The damage from LFR is so low, that pulling ahead just means, you are probably way overhealing, or the other healers are just useless.

Just for fun, We ran a guild run on lfr, in Terrace, and we 2 Healed it, without having any mana problems, just so we could chuckle at how laughable LFR healing is. So yes going for meters doesn't mean anything in LFR, it just means you are trying way too hard to get those numbers. Either Sniping heals, or just way overbubbling and wasting mana. It does not make you look good.

You don't have to try to top the meters in LFR, it just happens by having half decent gear and being not crap.

A lot of LFR is basically 10-man with 25 people. The rest is even easier.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13405
Shamis are fine, disc needs a bit of down tuning, I think on PoH's output; that said, If you go in LFR and end up with more than three competent healers, someone is going to be shut out badly because there's just not enough damage. Disc in that environment is nearly guaranteed to be on top if they're directly healing, simply because SS, Divine Aegis, and PW:S will always get first dibs at incoming damage.

As our guild likes to go as a group in LFR, I've taken to just spamming HF/Smite for a general 30-40k hps in atonement healing, casting shields and SS only to unmistake mistakes. Makes it go a little faster, and I can watch hulu on my other monitor, as I tap "9,1,2,2,2,2,9,1,2,2,2,2,9,1,2,2,2,2,9,1,2,2,2... etc [except under PI, heroism, or if I want to send off the squid or a PoM.]
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90 Tauren Shaman
0
12/06/2012 05:29 AMPosted by Leerah
Who should be "winning" the healing meters.


Nobody should be winning healing meters; because that meter is irrelevant.

Why are so many players obsessed with the healing meter?

There was a time not long ago, where mentioning healing meters would get one ridiculed and shunned for being a herpderp...


I don't think it's necessarily a case of herp-derp. People want to feel like they at least have the equal opportunity to contribute in a relatively equal manner. Obviously, balancing will never be perfect. But if a class does 10%+ more (or less) HPS or DPS inherently, I'd say it's a balancing issue that should be addressed.
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