Disc Priests need tuning...

90 Blood Elf Priest
14860
I have a question.

Are we actually going to say that Blizzard should be balancing Rapture around BIS gear? My guild is nowhere near the level it needs to be to tackle heroics at this point. Many other guilds haven't even made it as far as we have. Should my mana regen be balanced around more progressed guilds? o_O


If we just for sake of discussion accept that 16k spirit is the maximum you can achieve in BiS gear, and that 16k spirit is required to be 100% sustainable, you wouldn't actually wear 16k spirit. You'd wear maybe 12k. We don't actually need infinite mana, we just need to not run out of mana before the boss dies.
90 Gnome Priest
12440
The gearset I used is actually over the amount necessary when you average out the spirit proc on Spirits of the Sun (and possibly Darkglow) too.

So it's really hard to pull off this tier. Next tier? It should be more doable with how Blizzard handles ilvl jumps.


I have a question.

Are we actually going to say that Blizzard should be balancing Rapture around BIS gear? My guild is nowhere near the level it needs to be to tackle heroics at this point. Many other guilds haven't even made it as far as we have. Should my mana regen be balanced around more progressed guilds? o_O

No.

But it can't really be balanced the way it is. It's unique among the healer regen mechanics in that it's the only one that scales (noticeably, the tiny crit scalings from Resurgence and Chi generation aren't the same). It's balanced within a certain range (I think around the 9-10k spirit mark), but any more and we're stronger than other healers, any less and we're weaker than other healers.

Rapture just needs to restore a flat amount of mana in order for it to be balanced against other healers.
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
The gearset I used is actually over the amount necessary when you average out the spirit proc on Spirits of the Sun (and possibly Darkglow) too.

So it's really hard to pull off this tier. Next tier? It should be more doable with how Blizzard handles ilvl jumps.


I have a question.

Are we actually going to say that Blizzard should be balancing Rapture around BIS gear? My guild is nowhere near the level it needs to be to tackle heroics at this point. Many other guilds haven't even made it as far as we have. Should my mana regen be balanced around more progressed guilds? o_O


No, what should happen is Rapture should be set to a static amount of mana return that does not scale with gear. The fact that Rapture (and probably Mana Tide on a lesser scale) scales with gear is a huge problem when Innervate, Shadowfiend, and Divine Plea are all tied to the static mana pools and do not scale.

It really should be either all mana regen mechanics scale or none do, because when you have only a couple of them scaling, you run into the problem with nerfs being needed with every new tier that comes out to keep regen/longevity balanced across specs.
90 Draenei Shaman
11680
True story: my bf just woke up and told me he had this bizarre dream where he, and I, and Jack Nicholson were sitting in a restaurant and I was explaining to Mr Nicholson all the things that are wrong with MoP, and Mr Nicholson was very receptive.

I think I have been ranting about this stuff a little too much lately... :P

Thanks for the apologies Morenn and Tiriel, and sorry on my part for flippin' out, lol, I just hate the thought that anyone would think I am trying to prescribe playstyle from on high. I'm sooooooo not that kind of person!

And cheers to Skootaloo, Elethia, and Maladii for continuing the discussion. (Also, dat log. Wow. Awesome job!)

I do agree that the biggest actual, balance-jeopardizing issue we have is the mana ridiculosity that comes from Rapture scaling with 200% of Spirit and including procs and Mana Tide Totem. I posted this in another thread which now seems to be gone, but I know the technology is there to make Rapture ignore these things, because Mana Tide Totem ignores short-term Spirit buffs like trinket procs. At the very least, I think this needs to be implemented for Rapture.
1 Gnome Warlock
0
No, the biggest issue, CLEARLY, is Spirit Shell on a 1 minute cooldown (in the here and now). Beyond the inflated HPS it produces, it just completely trivializes almost every (supposedly) threatening raid mechanic.

Disc regen allowing them to do nothing but spam POH all day could and probably will eclipse it in the future.

They're both problems that need serious attention. At the end of the day, Spirit Shell completely neutralizes anything dangerous. The more Discs you have the more LOL it is.

The fact that Disc Priests can also pump out 30-40k DPS while doing all of this is also an issue nobody wants to talk about. Highest Throughput class. Most useful healing Type. Best raid cooldown on the shortest timer. Most damage. It is absurd how much Disc has going for it right now.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
No, the biggest issue, CLEARLY, is Spirit Shell on a 1 minute cooldown (in the here and now). Beyond the inflated HPS it produces, it just completely trivializes almost every (supposedly) threatening raid mechanic.

Disc regen allowing them to do nothing but spam POH all day could and probably will eclipse it in the future.

They're both problems that need serious attention. At the end of the day, Spirit Shell completely neutralizes anything dangerous. The more Discs you have the more LOL it is.

The fact that Disc Priests can also pump out 30-40k DPS while doing all of this is also an issue nobody wants to talk about. Highest Throughput class. Most useful healing Type. Best raid cooldown on the shortest timer. Most damage. It is absurd how much Disc has going for it right now.


Do you have a suggestion as to how Disc could have a viable raid CD for spread damage that isn't Spirit Shell?
90 Pandaren Monk
8140
No, the biggest issue, CLEARLY, is Spirit Shell on a 1 minute cooldown (in the here and now). Beyond the inflated HPS it produces, it just completely trivializes almost every (supposedly) threatening raid mechanic.

Disc regen allowing them to do nothing but spam POH all day could and probably will eclipse it in the future.

They're both problems that need serious attention. At the end of the day, Spirit Shell completely neutralizes anything dangerous. The more Discs you have the more LOL it is.

The fact that Disc Priests can also pump out 30-40k DPS while doing all of this is also an issue nobody wants to talk about. Highest Throughput class. Most useful healing Type. Best raid cooldown on the shortest timer. Most damage. It is absurd how much Disc has going for it right now.


Do you have a suggestion as to how Disc could have a viable raid CD for spread damage that isn't Spirit Shell?


They've already got a stacked one that is far more powerful than any other CD in the game, I don't see why they need to be the best at everything.
And DA preshielding like earlier tiers could be acceptable. It worked before.

More importantly and more on topic, I'm not of the opinion that spirit shell needs to be removed.
But the 1min CD does. Please tell me which class has a 1min 2.5mil throughput healing CD?
Oh, no one? Okay, thanks.
Put it on a 3min CD (which will still make it FAR better than every other 3min, like healing tide/tranq/DH/revival, when used properly, since it's overheals are virtually nil if used correctly) and then nerf their regen so they don't get 90k+ raptures when shammies use mana tide, and maybe we'll call it a day. As it happens DA is waaayy too powerful right now, as far as I can tell. On my most recent H garalon kill for example, my disc's DA did 16.6mil healing, her PoH did 11.8mil with 35% overhealing, and her total crits from other spells can only be estimated at around 5mil assuming even breakdown in line with the rest of her healing. Summing these up, that means that DA is easily averaging 80% of a spells (or critical spells) healing. This is by far un-balanced on BOTH sides of the coin. An absorb healer with a ratio like that (100:80) heal:absorb (without CDs) will either fall into 2 categories: ridiculous throughput that is unbalanced (current disc), or they will not have the throughput to heal people back up without very intelligent management of the absorbtion part of their healing because so much (nearly half, not counting SS) is tied into it.
It seems to me that with that sort of breakdown either you will have the thoughput to bring people back up after damage and THEN another HUGE chunk of 'free' [so to speak] absorbs, or you will be reliant on knowing how to pre-shield, keep DA's on targets, etc, to maximize the effectiveness of your throughput with the caveat that if you don't it will be extremely hard to bring people back to full health (and thus be an effective absorb healer which still has uses [atleast in 25m] but still relying on other healers to "push people back to full.)

As such, I don't see any world where DA+PoH will ever be "well balanced" in it's current incarnation, let alone all the complaints disc's have about how boring and 1-dimensional it is.

That being said, it's fun going into LFR's and doing nearly 90% of the healing of the group on a 470 ilvl disc since I just absorb everything. It's like what monks were before...just my throughput happens before everyone elses. So amusing.
Edited by Astråios on 12/8/2012 12:08 AM PST
90 Night Elf Priest
13490
12/08/2012 12:06 AMPosted by Astråios
And DA preshielding like earlier tiers could be acceptable. It worked before.


You mean like ICC, where pre-shielding trivialized LK? Or DS, where we were able to spam PoH and stack DA?

If Spirit Shell were the main issue, we wouldn't have seen such incredible improvement after the DA and Rapture buffs. Does its 1 minute CD contribute? Sure. Make it 1 min 15 sec, or 1 min 30 sec, and I guarantee our numbers will absolutely change.

Nor should it ever be compared to other throughput cooldowns. DH and Tranq require less than half the time to get their healing out, and DH also increases healing taken by 10%. HTT does its healing while the Shaman continues to heal. Revival is an instant cast. It's simply not the same as the rest—nor was it meant to be.

Revert the Rapture buff, revert the DA buff, unlink Rapture and MTT, and then take a look.
Edited by Elethia on 12/8/2012 12:29 AM PST
1 Gnome Warlock
0
No, the biggest issue, CLEARLY, is Spirit Shell on a 1 minute cooldown (in the here and now). Beyond the inflated HPS it produces, it just completely trivializes almost every (supposedly) threatening raid mechanic.

Disc regen allowing them to do nothing but spam POH all day could and probably will eclipse it in the future.

They're both problems that need serious attention. At the end of the day, Spirit Shell completely neutralizes anything dangerous. The more Discs you have the more LOL it is.

The fact that Disc Priests can also pump out 30-40k DPS while doing all of this is also an issue nobody wants to talk about. Highest Throughput class. Most useful healing Type. Best raid cooldown on the shortest timer. Most damage. It is absurd how much Disc has going for it right now.


Do you have a suggestion as to how Disc could have a viable raid CD for spread damage that isn't Spirit Shell?


I didn't suggest removing it in that post. Though that would likely be for the best.

As I have said before, and as others are saying, the one minute cooldown IS A COMPLETE JOKE. If it is to remain, it must at least go to 3 minutes. It is far stronger than all the other raid cooldowns and can be used 3x as often. This is the textbook definition of broken beyond all repair. 1 minute cooldown is COMPLETELY indefensible and utterly shocking.

I also didn't realize every healer needed a cooldown for every kind of situation. Someone should probably start giving Monks and Druids more cooldowns.
90 Blood Elf Priest
14860

I didn't suggest removing it in that post. Though that would likely be for the best.

As I have said before, and as others are saying, the one minute cooldown IS A COMPLETE JOKE. If it is to remain, it must at least go to 3 minutes. It is far stronger than all the other raid cooldowns and can be used 3x as often. This is the textbook definition of broken beyond all repair. 1 minute cooldown is COMPLETELY indefensible and utterly shocking.

I also didn't realize every healer needed a cooldown for every kind of situation. Someone should probably start giving Monks and Druids more cooldowns.


Oh look, hyperbole and a lack of reasons!

The only reason SS looks so incredible right now is because almost every boss in heart of fear resonates (literally, not an empress pun) with SS's 1 minute CD. It's to the point where I wonder if it was intentional to showcase SS in particular. It's not actually doing 2.5 million healing per SS either(at least 1/3rd of every SS would have been DA anyway) and we often pair it with AA which inflates its numbers.

It's certainly a fair candidate for nerfs, but there's really no reason why it "needs" a 3 minute cooldown. They could balance disc without touching it at all or they could balance it by nerfing it in to the ground. SS needs to be looked at in context of the whole class.
Edited by Maladii on 12/8/2012 5:32 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
Spirit shell does need an increased cd. Or nerfed scaling with crit/mastery. The less of a raid wall we can put up in those 15 seconds, the more balanced it would become.

Failing that, tack on some sort of downside to using it on cooldown. (75% of the heals it affects becoming shields, not 100%, etc.) even causing it to increase affected spell's mana costs could curb its use fairly well.

DA needs nerfing as well, if only back to just above where it was before. Or, grudgingly, i might condone reverting the change back to 30%, if it doesn't bring us back into the ranks of "meh" that only some could overcome, back in 5.0.

Rapture isn't as out of control as most say, if scaling with temporary spirit procs such as mana tide didn't exist. If it weren't part of disc, we'd miss it. Not to mention Power Word Shield would become a very unnattractive spell outside of absolute emergencies. (surging mists says hi)

If it's giving us too much regen, cap it at a percentage of our mana bar. Make it scale with spirit still, but make it so anything above that cap isn't as much of a net gain.

I hate to say it but i'm starting to agree with the majority of the community. I want to be nerfed. Being the top of the healing done chart, even when I'm playing poorly (overhealing like it's nobody's business) is not fun.

I want competition. I want to be able to say without a doubt that when i beat my monk and shaman friends, it's not just because my spec is flavor of the month. I don't want to use 1 button, with a second and 3rd for when 1 isn't enough.

This is partially why I love atonement so much. It feels like it's doing something interesting, fun and helpful in comparison to prayer of blah. I can give up my spot at the top of the healing done chart, but be able to point at my dps and say "and? the boss died faster."

TL;DR
Nerf me blizz. Make the game fun again.
90 Pandaren Priest
12725
No, the biggest issue, CLEARLY, is Spirit Shell on a 1 minute cooldown (in the here and now). Beyond the inflated HPS it produces, it just completely trivializes almost every (supposedly) threatening raid mechanic.


I don't think this argument holds any water. Nobody was claiming Discipline was over the top months ago and it has had Spirit Shell for the entire expansion. The inclusion of SS isn't what prompted the "Discipline is OP, omgz the sky is falling" complaints. The other more recent changes are the culprit.

SS also doesn't trivialize every threatening raid mechanic. It can pretty much completely trivialize some mechanics (lol, Unseen Strike). Others it just greatly reduces their significance (see Maladii's post).

As I have said before, and as others are saying, the one minute cooldown IS A COMPLETE JOKE. If it is to remain, it must at least go to 3 minutes.


SS isn't really a "raid cooldown" it's more of tool built into the spec to enhance it's other abilities. This is pretty much how Discipline is designed everywhere, with a small toolkit but a ton of CD's to enhance it. Furthermore, you cannot make huge changes without giving back some kind of compensation. The first part of that statement is responsible for the problem to begin with (like, increasing DA on PoH from 30% to 50%, this is a huuuuge buff).

12/08/2012 12:06 AMPosted by Astråios
They've already got a stacked one that is far more powerful than any other CD in the game, I don't see why they need to be the best at everything.


Do you have any idea how weak Barrier can be in a number of encounters due to it's incredibly short range?

12/08/2012 05:47 AMPosted by Keirisonis
Rapture isn't as out of control as most say, if scaling with temporary spirit procs such as mana tide didn't exist. If it weren't part of disc, we'd miss it. Not to mention Power Word Shield would become a very unnattractive spell outside of absolute emergencies. (surging mists says hi)


Your first comment is probably true. I don't see how they wouldn't have thought to prevent abilities like MTT interacting with Rapture. To be fair it's probably a pain in the !@# to prevent it for obvious reasons (Rapture works off of Spirit, MTT increases Spirit... yeah).

I disagree with your second comment. PW:S isn't only useful because of Rapture. It's an incredibly useful, albeit inefficient, spell all by itself. I can't even count how many times it's been the difference between a kill, a wipe, a player living or a player dying.
90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
12/08/2012 08:22 AMPosted by Volios
I disagree with your second comment. PW:S isn't only useful because of Rapture. It's an incredibly useful, albeit inefficient, spell all by itself. I can't even count how many times it's been the difference between a kill, a wipe, a player living or a player dying.


It's still not attractive outside of those emergency situations, then. that's what i meant. it could still save lives, but you most definitely wouldn't be using it as a tank healing spell, for example if it weren't linked to rapture. Especially considering ToF's interaction with greater heal.

It would become a much less useful spell when you aren't A) moving constantly without a pause or B) padding someone's health. I'm just pointing out other spells would become much more attractive most of the time if rapture were completely gone. Power Word Shield's cost would become much more debilitating.
90 Night Elf Priest
10180
The thing about Spirit Shell is that it's power is completely and utterly dependent on damage patterns. On a fight like Stone Guard, for example, where there's constant damage, you could use Spirit Shell for the overloads, but you'd have to stop healing at all for 10 to 15 seconds when there's still constant damage going out. That's a notable weakness. The other weakness is that you're dumping a lot of mana into it. That's the real balance point, I think. If mana weren't so ridonkulous right now for Disc, SS would be more balanced.
90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
12/08/2012 09:26 AMPosted by Dreamling
The thing about Spirit Shell is that it's power is completely and utterly dependent on damage patterns. On a fight like Stone Guard, for example, where there's constant damage, you could use Spirit Shell for the overloads, but you'd have to stop healing at all for 10 to 15 seconds when there's still constant damage going out. That's a notable weakness. The other weakness is that you're dumping a lot of mana into it. That's the real balance point, I think. If mana weren't so ridonkulous right now for Disc, SS would be more balanced.


I ran into this problem on our first couple of attempts before all of the hotfixes. I was assigned to heal a tank and help out on the raid and was just getting used to SS. My tank dropped low and i forgot the buff was up and started trying to gheal him with it up... Got soooo frustrated when his health bar wouldn't move above 20%. Thank god our monk (on his holy priest) noticed and bursted him back up.

Also, don't forget that SS gets more efficient the more mastery you have. The scaling with mastery is just insane. I have about 50% mastery raid buffed and it is just insane how much of a shield i get per PoH cast
As has been stated. Disc already has weaknesses.

1) we're very weak against unpredictable aoe damage spikes unless we want to just be dumping mana constantly. (vizier, last phase comes immediately to mind).

2) we don't have light aoe healing or light triage. Renew is "ok" but its not really a great spell to be casting as disc.

Also as has been stated, we need to be toned down some.
Unlinking Rapture from MTT would be great. I know I haven't been benefiting from one in guild runs, and mana isn't abundant, but its not like I am constantly OOM either, but in LFR its just nuts.
Divine Aegis is a bit too strong right now as well, toning it down to 40% should be just about right.

SS is only looking OP due to how well it lines up with boss abilities. altering the CD slightly (even by 5-10 seconds) so it can't line up so well, or adjusting how boss abilities are timed (even by the same 5-10 seconds) are both better ways of handling it I think.
90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
12/08/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Alifer
adjusting how boss abilities are timed (even by the same 5-10 seconds) are both better ways of handling it I think.


This i doubt blizz will do. Changing the ability's cd would be a much better way to handle it.

12/08/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Alifer
light triage


I've noticed that atonement works fairly well for this.

12/08/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Alifer
1) we're very weak against unpredictable aoe damage spikes unless we want to just be dumping mana constantly. (vizier, last phase comes immediately to mind).


Agree with this wholeheartedly.
90 Human Priest
17065
[quote]
The only reason SS looks so incredible right now is because almost every boss in heart of fear resonates (literally, not an empress pun) with SS's 1 minute CD. It's to the point where I wonder if it was intentional to showcase SS in particular. It's not actually doing 2.5 million healing per SS either(at least 1/3rd of every SS would have been DA anyway) and we often pair it with AA which inflates its numbers.

It's certainly a fair candidate for nerfs, but there's really no reason why it "needs" a 3 minute cooldown. They could balance disc without touching it at all or they could balance it by nerfing it in to the ground. SS needs to be looked at in context of the whole class.


That is basically it. SS is being made to look unusually OP because of the current tier's damage patterns.
90 Pandaren Priest
12725
It's still not attractive outside of those emergency situations, then. that's what i meant. it could still save lives, but you most definitely wouldn't be using it as a tank healing spell, for example if it weren't linked to rapture. Especially considering ToF's interaction with greater heal.

It would become a much less useful spell when you aren't A) moving constantly without a pause or B) padding someone's health. I'm just pointing out other spells would become much more attractive most of the time if rapture were completely gone. Power Word Shield's cost would become much more debilitating.


I think you're overestimating the efficiency of Greater Heal and underestimating the usefulness of PW:S. PW:S may not be an efficient spell but Greater Heal, by itself, isn't either. Greater Heal isn't a bad healing tool but I would argue PW:S is superior in many situations, even without Rapture.

Keep in mind as well, Rapture returns do not lower the cost of PW:S. This is because Rapture mana returns and PW:S mana cost are two separate concepts. You're not reducing the PW:S cost by increasing Rapture returns, you're just increasing Rapture returns. This is why it's flawed logic to talk about mana neutral or mana positive Power Word: Shield "breakpoints" when discussing Rapture. These breakpoints do not exist and have no relevance (this was touched on briefly earlier in this thread :)). In other words, Rapture isn't what makes PW:S a good spell.
90 Pandaren Priest
9955
Easy fix: scrap SS and make rapture a fixed amount.

Blizzard fix: nerf Disc into the ground.

Taking bets on which one happens.
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