Disc Priests need tuning...

Of course! Didn't you get the memo that Druids are the judge and jury of what is and isn't balanced in the healing game? After all, they have always been the middle-of-the-road evenly balanced healing class since, well, forever right?
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
12/08/2012 07:21 PMPosted by Alifer
Of course! Didn't you get the memo that Druids are the judge and jury of what is and isn't balanced in the healing game? After all, they have always been the middle-of-the-road evenly balanced healing class since, well, forever right?


I keep having to remind myself that there are druids like my Druid co-healer, and that the ones I keep seeing in these threads aren't the only Druids out there.
1 Gnome Warlock
0
When you're done with your circle jerk, perhaps you'd care to explain how you feel Spirit Shell in its current incarnation, on a 1 minute cooldown, is in any way reasonable.

Because it's not. And you know it.

I'm sure Disc Priests would love nothing more for this ability to fly under the nerf radar.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
When you're done with your circle jerk, perhaps you'd care to explain how you feel Spirit Shell in its current incarnation, on a 1 minute cooldown, is in any way reasonable.

Because it's not. And you know it.

I'm sure Disc Priests would love nothing more for this ability to fly under the nerf radar.


As others have pointed out, Disc has had the same 1 minute Spirit Shell since the 5.0 patch. It was not until we had two rounds of hotfixed buffs that anyone even noticed Spirit Shell. It was not enough to bring Disc Priests except on a fight like Gara'jal, where it allowed guilds to get away with fewer healers and ignore the major mechanic of the fight.

To say that the sum total of the problem is Spirit Shell and it's 1 minute CD is to willfully ignore the last three months.
Exactly, pre other buffs, nobody gave 1/2 of a hoot about spirit shell, since ehrmagawd disc wasn't even within spitting distance of the other healers. Now, a cooldown that takes 15 seconds to fully apply, and can be done once a minute is the only reason we are "op" SS only got indirect buffs from both prayer of healing and divine aegis being buffed. Your (willful?) ignorance of how the spell works is amusing.
100 Draenei Shaman
11960
Actually the Divine Aegis buff did not affect Spirit Shell at all - it still uses the 30% modifier for Divine Aegis in its spell formulae. The Inner Focus hotfix is the only thing that has directly changed Spirit Shell's throughput potential.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
12/08/2012 07:55 PMPosted by Dayani
Actually the Divine Aegis buff did not affect Spirit Shell at all - it still uses the 30% modifier for Divine Aegis in its spell formulae. The Inner Focus hotfix is the only thing that has directly changed Spirit Shell's throughput potential.


Archangel.
90 Blood Elf Priest
14860
When you're done with your circle jerk, perhaps you'd care to explain how you feel Spirit Shell in its current incarnation, on a 1 minute cooldown, is in any way reasonable.

Because it's not. And you know it.

I'm sure Disc Priests would love nothing more for this ability to fly under the nerf radar.


That's now how this game works. If you think SS on a 1 minute cooldown is "utterly ridiculous", then it should be trivial for you to provide a reason, right?
100 Draenei Shaman
11960
12/08/2012 08:02 PMPosted by Tiriél
Archangel.


Oh yeah! I guess I was thinking "of the hotfixes since 5.1" :P

*cough* I totally said "The Inner Focus and Archangel hotfixes are the only things that have directly changed Spirit Shell's throughput potential." Gosh, Tiriel, L2Read :D

(But srsly, thanks for the correction!)
1 Gnome Warlock
0
When you're done with your circle jerk, perhaps you'd care to explain how you feel Spirit Shell in its current incarnation, on a 1 minute cooldown, is in any way reasonable.

Because it's not. And you know it.

I'm sure Disc Priests would love nothing more for this ability to fly under the nerf radar.


As others have pointed out, Disc has had the same 1 minute Spirit Shell since the 5.0 patch. It was not until we had two rounds of hotfixed buffs that anyone even noticed Spirit Shell. It was not enough to bring Disc Priests except on a fight like Gara'jal, where it allowed guilds to get away with fewer healers and ignore the major mechanic of the fight.

To say that the sum total of the problem is Spirit Shell and it's 1 minute CD is to willfully ignore the last three months.


I have never said the sum total of the problem is Spirit Shell. There are a multitude of issues with Disc Priests. There is a notable lack of discussion in this thread about Spirit Shell however. The one minute cooldown is not going to survive, nor should it.
90 Worgen Priest
9630
Spirit Shell is not a 'hit one button and done' CD...

- 15 seconds to apply
- Sometimes is necessary to remove (Gara'jal within spirit totems, the need for a big heal rather than slow, incoming absorbs)
- Blanket shielding must be thought out WELL ahead of time and there is a bit of luck needed in timing... As someone else mentioned, sometimes the timers are off and the boss decided to hit that big move later than expected, nullfying those shields
- TIMING, TIMING, TIMING... you won't get ANY benefit from a a badly timed SS. Trust me, I have had many badly timed SS blankets. For example, "oh !@#$, total annihilation is incom-- woops, only got off a couple of SS and woop-de-doodle, they didn't really prevent too much damage and weren't worth wasting my CD. QQ"

I wouldn't be opposed to the other nerfs people are talking about, because, yeah, I am swimming in mana and could probably (definitely) cut back on spirit due to my rapture procs, but SS isn't a complaint of mine. :p I like it's short CD and don't think it's OP at all. It takes some skill to utilize outside of padding meters in RF.
100 Human Priest
17310
Came back to see how this thread is doing and it's sad to see people arguing about spirit shell.

My supa dupa spreadsheet is showing PoH spam at 149,574 hps and that value goes to 170,852 hps during spirit shell. So a 15 second cooldown that increases our throughput by 14% is making people flip their sh*t? really?

I guess to be fair, this number jumps to 213,565 hps when synced with a 5 stacked archangel, but there is a lot of prep for that. You're only doing 47,099-67,349 hps for the time you're stacking up evangelism. Plus, if you use inner focus, or get an int/crit/mastery proc from ANYTHING, you're going to hardcap your spirit shell in 2 casts. This means 4.7 seconds of either canceling your spirit shell early or doing 100% overhealing and wasting mana.

But you can layer it before predictable damage and skew the hps in your favor. I get it, but why are you so adamant about the healing done numbers? A differing strategy is have someone else use a cd for whatever insane damage mechanic because using nothing but PoH per spirit shell is 27% of a disc priest's mana bar. Then your (still inaccurate) recount/world of logs numbers would show other healers jumping up in hps as your disc priest jumps down. But hey, hps meters matter amirite? /tongueandcheek

The only thing you can convince me of is that with the entire absorb refreshing itself to the original 15 second duration, it's too easy to layer in absorbs over groups of people. I can get that, because it is really easy to keep refreshing absorbs if you have the mana (which to me is pretty comparable to abusing serendipity as holy to snipe heals if you have the mana). I feel this is also a design prison because on fights where they don't want disc priests cheesing any raid damage ability will layering absorbs, they have to put a continuous damage aura, which wouldn't be fun or engaging on every single fight.

Already proposed a fix for all of these problems that wouldn't cripple sustained hps (which is something disc doesn't do very well): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7320002159?page=15#293
And it wouldn't surprise me if all absorbs got the ignite treatment next patch.

But really this thread to me is showing me the sheer volume of players who do not understand the math or the capping mechanics of spirit shell, and most of this "discussion" is uninformed speculation at best.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I have never said the sum total of the problem is Spirit Shell. There are a multitude of issues with Disc Priests. There is a notable lack of discussion in this thread about Spirit Shell however. The one minute cooldown is not going to survive, nor should it.


SS is predominantly strong on fights with predictable burst damage with lulls in damage in between. On fights with constant AoE, whilst Disc still is strong, the gap is much closer and really only exists right now because of how overbuffed Rapture and DA are right now.

Changing SS to a 3 min timer is going to reduce our output by a substantial amount. If you couple it with the much needed nerfs to Rapture and DA, you're essentially neutering the Disc Priest. Do you have any ideas as to how to compensate Disc Priests then?

Also, Disc is hardly the only healer with raid CDs on a 1-min timer - Druids, Shamans and Paladins do too. However, unlike most other raid CDs available, SS has non-trivial positioning and timing constraints. Yet, this does not seem to be a consideration for you at all.

The only reason you seem to have such a huge problem with SS is because its capable of shielding for such high amounts every min. If that's the case, wouldn't it be better for you to advocate reducing the amount it's capable of shielding per cast, rather than resorting to such a Blizzard-esque nerf to the spell?
Edited by Ceddya on 12/8/2012 8:52 PM PST
I honestly think a 90 second cd and 20 second duration will benefit the spell/class as a whole. It will have lower uptime, but at the same time, more time while active to make use of different heals while it is active.

Maybe lower/remove the scaling it gets from the guaranteed aegis from PoH as well, but that might be going too far IMHO if they nerf Aegis in general.
90 Blood Elf Priest
14860
But you can layer it before predictable damage and skew the hps in your favor. I get it, but why are you so adamant about the healing done numbers? A differing strategy is have someone else use a cd for whatever insane damage mechanic because using nothing but PoH per spirit shell is 27% of a disc priest's mana bar. Then your (still inaccurate) recount/world of logs numbers would show other healers jumping up in hps as your disc priest jumps down. But hey, hps meters matter amirite? /tongueandcheek


I don't get it. That "strategy" seems inferior in every possible way. Maybe I'm not reading it right? Where are you proposing using your SS instead? and for what purpose exactly?

The only thing you can convince me of is that with the entire absorb refreshing itself to the original 15 second duration, it's too easy to layer in absorbs over groups of people. I can get that, because it is really easy to keep refreshing absorbs if you have the mana (which to me is pretty comparable to abusing serendipity as holy to snipe heals if you have the mana). I feel this is also a design prison because on fights where they don't want disc priests cheesing any raid damage ability will layering absorbs, they have to put a continuous damage aura, which wouldn't be fun or engaging on every single fight.

Already proposed a fix for all of these problems that wouldn't cripple sustained hps (which is something disc doesn't do very well): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7320002159?page=15#293
And it wouldn't surprise me if all absorbs got the ignite treatment next patch.

But really this thread to me is showing me the sheer volume of players who do not understand the math or the capping mechanics of spirit shell, and most of this "discussion" is uninformed speculation at best.


I'd be shocked if they implemented that next patch. What problem do you think it's addressing? Rolling absorbs? There's already a system in place to prevent that: mana. It's just not working properly at the moment.
100 Human Priest
17310
I honestly think a 90 second cd and 20 second duration will benefit the spell/class as a whole. It will have lower uptime, but at the same time, more time while active to make use of different heals while it is active.

Maybe lower/remove the scaling it gets from the guaranteed aegis from PoH as well, but that might be going too far IMHO if they nerf Aegis in general.


That's probably the absolute worst thing you could do to anyone but the 25 man raiders because of the hard cap
100 Human Priest
17310
12/08/2012 09:12 PMPosted by Maladii
I don't get it. That "strategy" seems inferior in every possible way. Maybe I'm not reading it right? Where are you proposing using your SS instead? and for what purpose exactly?

That's a really situational question to answer. Just one example: apparently a lot of priests are using spirit shell on Lei Shi when he blows you away and does a ton of raid damage. I've been using spirit shell on both tanks when adds come out instead. There's no hard and fast rule with raid strategies and cd usage.

12/08/2012 09:12 PMPosted by Maladii
I'd be shocked if they implemented that next patch. What problem do you think it's addressing? Rolling absorbs? There's already a system in place to prevent that: mana. It's just not working properly at the moment.

It's addressing the problem that apparently exists where we're rolling prayer of healing during downtime to maintain a rolling divine aegis. I do agree disc has too much mana, but the above quote/comment was addressing the volumes of people who seem to think spirit shell is causing all of these problems.
100 Draenei Priest
10020
Please don't increase the cooldown and duration of Spirit Shell. That's a terrible idea.

If you must nerf disc priests, two places to look are Rapture and Mastery.

Our mastery scales too well right now, and it's dwarfing haste and crit (arguably, up to the point where you're easily hard-capping your Spirit Shells).
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
12/08/2012 09:19 PMPosted by Twistedmind
It's addressing the problem that apparently exists where we're rolling prayer of healing during downtime to maintain a rolling divine aegis.


Except that that problem only exists because people are abusing MTT to get ridiculous Raptures.

Seriously, you can't address that without addressing what's behind it. And yeah, people are screaming at Spirit Shell, and ignoring the fact that we've had the damn thing - in about the same form - since the start of the expac when we were being sat for classes that were actually functional.
100 Night Elf Priest
10420
I think one reason why people are screaming about SS is because on the meters, it looks like a huge spike of a bajillion HPS, because it does 15 seconds worth of healing in one second. (Or whatever the damage pattern is.) It's not visibly obvious that it involved 15 seconds of not-healing. It's also not obvious that the crazy spikes may have included the use of AA, IF and PI. Is it less broken if you consider all that? Or is it broken that we can stack all those cooldowns? I don't know. Point is, the cost of that spike is not obvious.

It's also true that the mana cost of building SS is currently negligible.

Speaking of, how do you get your combat log to show you your Rapture amounts? Mine doesn't mention Rapture at all.
Edited by Dreamling on 12/8/2012 11:44 PM PST
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