Disc Priests need tuning...

90 Human Priest
11345
Try reading my post again and you might realize that is exactly what I said.

Edit: wtf beaten must f5 harder
Edited by Amabella on 12/5/2012 12:31 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Try reading my post again and you might realize that is exactly what I said.

Edit: wtf beaten must f5 harder


My fingers type fast!
90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
12/05/2012 12:29 PMPosted by Tiriél
I'm saying before the DA/Rapture buff, the PoM/PoH buff, and the SS/AA/IF bug fixes - Disc was a mess (the PoM/PoH buff was also there for Holy since it too was severely under-performing).


Okay, that is not what she was saying. You need to go back and re-read her post. She said that before the DA/Rapture buff, but after the PoM/PoH and SS/AA fixes, we were doing fine. She's not saying Disc was fine before those buffs, she's saying that the Rapture/DA buff was over the top.

Are all these buffs combined too much on top of a super powerful SS? Yes. Would we had been fine if only one buff component was addressed? Probably. Would we had been fine if NONE was addressed? Most definitely not.


Again, please go back and re-read what Amabella said.


Ah, yes you're right. I misread. Thank You.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
12/05/2012 12:31 PMPosted by Senari
Ah, yes you're right. I misread. Thank You.


^_^

Personally, I would be fine with the DA buff and the Rapture buff rolled back to what they were before.

My only concern is new players. I think that one of the issues with having Rapture scale the way it does is that the spec really only "works" once you have gear. One of their goals in MoP was to make sure that healers didn't have to get gear to actually "function," that you could still manage Heroics and whatnot without having to have uber gear. I am concerned that reverting the Rapture buff will end up with unintentional side effects, as we're seeing with low-level Monks at the moment.

I really feel like there has to be a way to give us decent regen without making us completely and utterly gear-dependent.
Edited by Tiriél on 12/5/2012 12:34 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
12/05/2012 12:34 PMPosted by Tiriél
Ah, yes you're right. I misread. Thank You.


^_^

Personally, I would be fine with the DA buff and the Rapture buff rolled back to what they were before.

My only concern is new players. I think that one of the issues with having Rapture scale the way it does is that the spec really only "works" once you have gear. One of their goals in MoP was to make sure that healers didn't have to get gear to actually "function," that you could still manage Heroics and whatnot without having to have uber gear. I am concerned that reverting the Rapture buff will end up with unintentional side effects, as we're seeing with low-level Monks at the moment.

I really feel like there has to be a way to give us decent regen without making us completely and utterly gear-dependent.


This kind of goes back to the PvP vs PvE. We have people calling for Rapture nerfs in PvE and PvP priests (both lolholy and disc) crying for more survivability and mana regen.

If Rapture nerfs means Blizzard buffs tier 3 talents (FD;CL, Mindbender, PW:Solace) to something practical and effective in a PvP envrionment (FD;CL is too rng, Solace is not practical) than I'd be all for it.
90 Gnome Priest
12120
12/05/2012 12:34 PMPosted by Tiriél
I really feel like there has to be a way to give us decent regen without making us completely and utterly gear-dependent.

Static values!

They're boring, but they do get the job done. It's also what pretty much everyone else has, except for MTT. Everyone else's regen is tied to max mana (Divine Plea, Mana Tea, Innervate), the mana cost of certain spells (Serendipity, Omen of Clarity) or actual static values (Water Shield and Resurgence).

It's what makes Rapture stand out so much.
90 Human Priest
11345
Yeah I laughed when I saw that they had changed rapture away from intellect because it scaled too well and instead changed it to another mechanic that also scaled too well (and then buffed it because apparently it wasn't obvious enough).
90 Goblin Priest
6360
Well arent we a mature bunch, actually asking for necessary nerfs. I agree, disc is wtf op at the moment. Here is a log from last night. It's not just this fight, I've been 5-10% higher then the 2nd highest healer for weeks in the same level of gear.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3gscg0kh4wdy7nnf/sum/healingDone/?s=5551&e=6016#Nonsense
90 Draenei Priest
11110
Well whatever they did to tune whatever it was has been awesome for my pvping. I certainly don't have infinite mp but I can keep up myself and others on a reasonable basis where before I was OOM in about 20 seconds. So awesome and I'm loving that part.
90 Pandaren Priest
12725
I'd argue there are two culprits at play here. They are as follows....

1. Discipline is rather poor at handling many situations. To counter-balance this the developer team decided to make it amazing at a handful of tasks. And when I say amazing at a handful of tasks I mean reducing large burst damage type mechanics, and outright removing them from encounters in some situations.

2. Many of the threatening mechanics in the encounters consist of the situations Discipline is amazing at handling.

I'd also argue the core reason behind the problem is the fact the developers decided to, for whatever reason, buff the spec in areas where it was already strong instead of addressing the areas where it was weak. In addition, clearly they didn't think far enough ahead and recognize the potential ramifications of this decision.

The fixes to rectify the lack of cool-down synergy made sense (IF and AA working with Spirit Shell). Even the Rapture change may have made sense, despite the fact they probably went a bit overboard with it. I think they were on the right track with these kinds of changes.

Buffing PoH to fix the problems was a really bad idea. PoH was already a strong spell. Spirit Shell, Archangel and Inner Focus were already strong cool-downs. Buffing PoH directly or indirectly increased the effectiveness of all of the above. The end result is Discipline effectiveness goes over the top in situations with large burst type mechanics or where these tools are most effective.

If they wanted to actually "fix" the problem they should have addressed the areas where these tools weren't appropriate, and buffed currently existing abilities or added new abilities to improve the effectiveness of the spec in the situations where it was weak. They chose not to do so. This is the result.
90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
12/05/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Senari
This kind of goes back to the PvP vs PvE. We have people calling for Rapture nerfs in PvE and PvP priests (both lolholy and disc) crying for more survivability and mana regen.


This is true. The Rapture and DA changes actually happened around the same time as GC began admitting Disc was weak in PvP, and both changes help in that regard, but are monstrously overboard for PvE.

I think the best bet would be to nerf PoH for Disc only. Maybe remove guaranteed DA or drastically reduce the % of DA from PoH only. If you nerf DA on Single Target heals as well, it could have a significant impact on survivability in PvP...If you only nerf PoH, well, that would impact PvE, which is what we need.
Edited by Qùess on 12/5/2012 1:48 PM PST
90 Human Priest
17065
I'd argue there are two culprits at play here. They are as follows....

1. Discipline is rather poor at handling many situations. To counter-balance this the developer team decided to make it amazing at a handful of tasks. And when I say amazing at a handful of tasks I mean reducing large burst damage type mechanics, and outright removing them from encounters in some situations.

2. Many of the threatening mechanics in the encounters consist of the situations Discipline is amazing at handling.


Number two hits it. Right now I think discs are basically the druids of T11 and holy paladins for DS. People were crying foul over and over again but well, nothing was changed (til Pandaland anyway) and the fact was that nearly all of those fights, the class concerned excelled or was a borderline hack (HALLO YOR'SAHJ BEACON HEALING) at. I'll like to at least wait until the next tier to see the encounters before giving judgement.

(( Small guilty pleasure voice here says we shouldn't be touched, but I'm expecting a nerf coming as well))
90 Troll Priest
8740
Currently, I just really hopeful they don't overnerf us like they did monks.
And I have to agree with the rapture return nerf, its extremely powerful atm. I already get like 23k total mana back in a raid, and that can easily jump to like 30k+ when I have spirit procs.
90 Draenei Monk
16925
No longer main a Disc Priest, but I've been toying around on Intrigue in LFRs and stuff, and yeah - SS is not difficult to use on the majority of encounters. Got boss timers? You're basically good to go.

I've felt for a while that SS simply lines up too well for many raid mechanics (which are on either 30 sec or 1 minute timers). As a 1 minute CD, I feel it is a bit too potent. Either tune that back a bit, or increase its CD.

And yes, regen on Disc is a bit of a joke. My ~475 Disc Priest has generally better regen than my 493 monk (don't want to turn this into another MW thread, just using it as an example). Rapture absolutely needs to not benefit from MTT. The fact it benefits from temporary spirit procs like trinkets/Darkglow is plenty.

A few days ago I went through a log for one of our Empress kills and saw our Disc Priests occasionally getting Rapture procs up to 75k, I'm assuming due to MTT+spirit procs. That's... just lol.
Edited by Swaggle on 12/5/2012 3:05 PM PST
90 Night Elf Priest
13420
I'd also like the DA/Rapture buffs reverted, and have MTT no longer affect Rapture. Or keep the Rapture buff and unlink MTT. Either way.

If that brings us too low, or lower than desired, add DA to PoM.
90 Gnome Priest
12120
12/05/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Swaggle
I've felt for a while that SS simply lines up too well for many raid mechanics (which are on either 30 sec or 1 minute timers). As a 1 minute CD, I feel it is a bit too potent. Either tune that back a bit, or increase its CD.

Oh right. Historical parallel: Icebound Fortitude for DK tanks back in Wrath.

It was one of the reasons they got nerfed so hard when ToC was released. Having a DK tank was basically required throughout Ulduar because DK tanks allowed you to ignore certain boss mechanics, like Surge of Darkness for General Vezax.

Similar things happening now. I can Spirit Shell every other Celestial Annihilation on Elegon (even though it is a throughput loss, the increase in raid-wide effective health is worth it), I can do the same for Draw Flame on Feng, not to mention the havoc I wreak on Gara'jal.

It doesn't work for every fight, but it's pretty bonkers for the ones that it does.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
12/05/2012 03:25 PMPosted by Skootalloo
It doesn't work for every fight, but it's pretty bonkers for the ones that it does.


Yeah, and there's nothing else quite as bonkers as it on any fight where it DOESN'T work.
90 Draenei Shaman
11630
I agree wholeheartedly with most of the posters in this thread. I have the privilege of healing with some truly amazing Priests, who were doing extremely well before all the Priest buffs, and who are now untouchable. Their domination on the meters doesn't bother me at all - I want the raid to succeed, I don't necessarily need to "win" - but what does bother me is how much of a one-button spammer Disc Priests are becoming, and also how Spirit Shell can contribute to healer decay in progression fights.

As I wrote recently on my blog:

From http://healiocentric.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/patch-5-1-and-hotfixes/#disc

Buffing our Divine Aegis to 50% of the healed amount, though … that is where things started to get off the rails for me. Because Prayer of Healing always applies Divine Aegis, a buff to DA really disproportionately buffs PoH’s throughput. We’re getting terrifyingly close to “one-button-wonder” territory here, with PoH being more HPM and HPET than many of our single target healing options even when only one of the five affected targets is damaged.

At that same time, Rapture got buffed to return 200% of Spirit as mana, which probably puts most Discipline Priests above the mana-positive threshold. And since Rapture can multi-proc (although, in any situation where that’s feasible, I’d question why you are PW:S blanketing the raid instead of SS:PoH blanketing the raid), and since Rapture doesn’t exclude temporary Spirit buffs like on-use trinkets, trinket procs, and Mana Tide Totem, this has largely removed, or at least trivialised, any mana constraints that were previously keeping Disc Priests from putting PoH spam into heavy rotation.

Now with Inner Focus affecting Spirit Shell – and as you’ll see below in my incredibly pedantic mathsplosion – we are getting yet another mechanic that is overvalued with Prayer of Healing... It feels like the Discipline spec is being given a horrible crutch in the form of amazing Prayer of Healing spam when what it really needs is a more varied toolkit to deal with the variety of damage profiles that exist.

Basically, right now, we have a hammer called PoH, and we are treating every boss encounter like it’s a nail, and we’re beating on that nail mercilessly, except sometimes it’s not a nail, it’s a fluffy bunny, and that makes us terrible people. But our hammer is totally killing those nails, and those fluffy bunnies, and it’s doing a great job of it too, so we look like we’re fine. But we’re not. We’re terrible people. OK, this analogy got tortured along the way, I’m sorry, but I hope you see my point.


With PoH being so strong, it is becoming the solution to every problem. Seriously, if you have a party wherein one target is damaged, casting PoH on that party is more HPM/HPET, if you count the DA shields that are put up on the other players, than almost any other single-target healing spell we have. Yes, Penance as Atonement with 5 stacks Evangelism will beat it on HPM, and Flash Heal if that one injured guy has 3 stacks of Grace up will beat it on HPET. But of course those are unrealistic scenarios - Penance might heal someone else instead, and unless that one injured party member is a tank, he's unlikely to have 3 stacks of Grace.

The only fight for which this isn't really true, IMO, is Blade Lord Ta'yak, because there isn't enough incidental damage to make those DA shields on the other party members useful. For every other fight I can think of, though, I'd take PoH healing+DA on 1 person + DA shields on everyone else over any other spell I'd be casting. And that just feels wrong.

With the huge caveat that my own Disc Priest is just an alt and hasn't had much raiding experience yet, I agree with Amabella that Disc was in a good spot after they allowed SS and AA to play nicely together and after PoH got its 25% buff. I don't think those were the right ways to fix the class's problems (well, mainly the PoH thing), but I do think they were effective. Right now though I feel like the elegant, synergistic Discipline spec I came to love in Cataclysm is being turned into nothing more than a Prayer of Healbot. I'm worried that the spec is losing its depth, that we aren't being rewarded enough for using our full toolkit vs just spamming PoH and the occasional PW:S and CD, and I'd hate to see that happen because I want all healing specs to be interesting, varied, and rewarding.
90 Blood Elf Priest
6380
Personally, When i look at spirit shell, I think its duration needs to be increased.
I would like to see its duration at 30 seconds, or even 1 minute.

It would be nice if it was an aoe bubble instant cast, with a high mana cost (35/45k) and a moderate cooldown (2-3 minutes).

The amount if the thing in question if you ask me. Personally, i think its merrited for it to be 250k. I know a lot of people argue that this is op. But honestly discipline ihas no such cooldown like divine hymm, so this ability should be a counter point to that.

I believe that DA is in need of a frequency buff, but possibly an amount nerf.

lets do some math.

lets assume you do 40k bubbles x 6 every 10-15 seconds.
this means you bubble 240k absorb ever 10 seconds, but lets say you have a lapse of 30-45 seconds before an equal number gets up. so lets say over the duration of a fight you see (8 minutes)

this puts 250k absorbs, every minute, or 2,000,000 absorbs a boss fight.
What i would like to see is

20k absorbs with 100 activity. so lets say 20k x 10, ever 4 seconds for 8 minutes.
2,400,000. While 20k is not alot, the frequency picks up, causing DA to be buffed slightly. this will increase the damage reduction on the raid. The question how to do this.

Its likely that the amount of absorb per healing ratio needs to be changed to something like 10-15% On every heal, rather then on every crit. I think this will give DA and Disc priests the purpose of being a damage reduction class, rather then flat heals.

I would also like to see it done when DA pops, you gain 500-1.5k mana.

Lets assume the above is true.

240 bubbles per that 8 minutes.
4.5k Mana per bubble or 2160 mana a second.

lastly, i feel that Attone/Halo/ should be our heals.
And that the heal on PWS glyph should be pumped to 75% of its absorb amount

the objective should be to encourge the priest to absorb rather then heal, and to dps to heal, rather then directive heal (in that order).

this way the priest (disc) remains unique, and offers something amazing to raids.

the amount SS is healing for atm is alittle high, i think a fixed amount will put that into perspective.

one other idea i had was to make SS a passive.
when ever you cast PWS it has an effect of one of the following

1) when it breaks, it bubbles a near by ally

or

2) when casting pwd, you have a change to bubble up to 5 near by allies. (not always 5, but up to, and important point)
Edited by Ezri on 12/5/2012 4:24 PM PST
90 Pandaren Priest
14065
The problem is Spirit Shield. Being able to on average, blanket the raid with a 100k+ shield every minute is too much - no healer can compete with that. Raise the cooldown to 2 or 3 minutes.

Everything else is fine except for how Rapture works with Mana Tide.


I strongly disagree. Spirit Shell requires rather precise timing to get good numbers out of and I'm a firm believer that good Disc's should be rewarded if they're able to utilize it well. A slight nerf to the duration of each SS should be all that's needed.

The problem with Spirit Shield is exactly that it does not require precise timing to get good numbers. Its 15 seconds long duration is an eternity as far as timing goes, and with raid timer addons being common today (DBM et al), it's not exactly rocket science to cast it at the right time. Remember that most damage in this tier comes in predictable bursts.

I've been in 10-man raids where a well-played disc priest wearing mostly ilvl 463 blues does better than healers of other classes wearing partial hardmode gear -- without running out of mana. I mean, that person clearly knew how to play, but come one now.
Edited by Rezô on 12/5/2012 4:34 PM PST
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