Brewmasters need tweaking

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100 Blood Elf Monk
10205
Brewmaster tanks are quite simply in a very bad place at the moment. I really like their play style but in raids they are simply weaker than other tanks. Below are some things that I feel need to be addressed, and would like to see what the community thinks.

First of all our health is too low. Yes, I understand that this is supposed this is supposed to because while maintaining shuffle up time we stagger a good bit of physical damage. Stagger only affects physical damage however, and when we are on a boss fight with a decent amount of magic damage we simply give our healers heart attacks. I understand that blizzard doesn't want to allow magical damage to be staggered it might make monk tanks OP when in magical based encounters. We need more health to give us a buffer in these situations. Either that or some percentage of our stagger needs to affect magic damage. I'm not saying by any means that it needs to be the full amount, but something needs to be done to put us in line with other tanks on this front.

Our AoE threat is insane. Neither of the 2 tanks that I raid with can hold any threat in AoE situations. Granted this doesn't really affect too many boss fights, but trash pulls tend to hurt when you have aggro on everything. Our AoE dps is higher than other tanks atm anyways so toning down the spells that are only in our AoE rotation could potentially solve this. Either that or take some of the threat/damage generated by keg smash and transfer that to blackout kick so that we maintain the same level of threat in single target fights. I don't mind our dps decreasing as I am a tank not a dps. My job is to survive first and foremost.

Lastly, I feel that monk damage mitigation needs to be increased a bit. This might not need to be done if our health is increased, but I would have to see how if and when that would happen. I am not trying to suggest anything crazy here. Maybe a slight increase to the amount of damage staggered would work, either through blackout kick or our natural stagger. An increase to our armor through stance of the sturdy ox might work was well. I don't know exactly what percentage increase here would work but it would only mitigate physical damage so as not to make us over powered in magic based encounters. Even a simple fix like not making keg smash and jab able to be parried while in stance of the sturdy ox might work (or have them generate chi even if they miss). Having the ability to reforge/gem for less expertise and more haste/crit would allow for more active mitigation and may do the trick as well. I don't think this needs to be fixed through avoidance however, because I feel like we do will in the avoidance area.

I don't want brewmasters to be overpowered by any means but they should at least be in line with our plate wearing tanks. I really like the feel of brewmaster tanking as it is very unique, and I feel they can be brought in line with other tanks with some minor tweaking of the spec. If nothing is done I feel I am going to have to main change back to one of my other tanks for the sake of my guilds progression and my healers sanity.

Do any of you guys have any other reasonable suggestions as to how to fix brewmaster tanking?
Problem #1:
Glyph of Guard

Problem #2:
Be more mindful of your pulls and the direction you use Keg Smash.

Problem #3:
Stagger, Fortifying Brew, Guard, Weakened Blows, Stance of the Sturdy Ox, and many other utility mitigation spells.

In short, I don't believe you realize how much control goes into being a Brewmaster tank. It has a steep learning curve. The longer you play the class, the more you will realize these aren't real problems but class flavor.

What kind of raid flasks are you using?
90 Gnome Monk
7430
Problem #1:
Glyph of Guard

Problem #2:
Be more mindful of your pulls and the direction you use Keg Smash.

Problem #3:
Stagger, Fortifying Brew, Guard, Weakened Blows, Stance of the Sturdy Ox, and many other utility mitigation spells.


While I agree that some of the OP's points are not very strong, I think he does have a somewhat valid point on the health pool issue.

point 1) glyph of guard: guard has a 30 sec cooldown, boss magic spells don't always have this

point 2) reasonably valid response although it is not always up to you where the mobs someone else is tanking go

point 3) stance? really? Weakened blows is uniform among tank specs afaik, and he mentioned stagger. If you want to go into the tank cooldowns then monks are'nt too badly off but they aren't the !@#$ of the walk either.

It is, however, a fact that BMs are squishy compared to other tanks if they lose their active mitigation for any reason and, unlike the higher physical mitigation provided by plate/bear armor levels, stagger damage isn't passively erased, you have to spend precious resources to remove the damage. I'm not saying monk tanks are bad (they really aren't) just that some tweaks could be made to fill in some small holes.
90 Pandaren Monk
6570
Brewmaster tanks are quite simply in a very bad place at the moment. I really like their play style but in raids they are simply weaker than other tanks. Below are some things that I feel need to be addressed, and would like to see what the community thinks.

First of all our health is too low.


No it isn't. Compared to what? DKs and Paladins? Yes, but they're heal-tanks and heal-tanks need a larger health pool to... well... heal-tank from. Removing those from the picture what's next?

Monks.

Firmly in the middle.

Moreover, our health isn't too low.

Yes, I understand that this is supposed this is supposed to because while maintaining shuffle up time we stagger a good bit of physical damage. Stagger only affects physical damage however, and when we are on a boss fight with a decent amount of magic damage we simply give our healers heart attacks.


Most tanks do. However, our magic mitigation is an inherent 25%, which puts monks in a strong place.

I understand that blizzard doesn't want to allow magical damage to be staggered it might make monk tanks OP when in magical based encounters. We need more health to give us a buffer in these situations.


We have that buffer. Learn how to swap trinkets and use Guard effectively.

Either that or some percentage of our stagger needs to affect magic damage. I'm not saying by any means that it needs to be the full amount, but something needs to be done to put us in line with other tanks on this front.


Why? Can Paladins and Warriors block magic damage? Can Druids dodge it? DK's blood shield doesn't stop spells, you know.

Actually, you should ask what makes DKs so capable of dealing with magic--then ask yourself 'If I don't need to shuffle on this fight, what else can I spend my chi on to do something about this?'

You'd be surprised what you can do with a large absorb on a 30second cooldown, Dampen Harm/Diffuse Magic/Chi Wave/Expel Harm/Orbs-a-grabbin

Our AoE threat is insane. Neither of the 2 tanks that I raid with can hold any threat in AoE situations. Granted this doesn't really affect too many boss fights, but trash pulls tend to hurt when you have aggro on everything. Our AoE dps is higher than other tanks atm anyways so toning down the spells that are only in our AoE rotation could potentially solve this. Either that or take some of the threat/damage generated by keg smash and transfer that to blackout kick so that we maintain the same level of threat in single target fights. I don't mind our dps decreasing as I am a tank not a dps. My job is to survive first and foremost.


Be -careful- with Keg Smash, so you -don't- peel off the other tank when sharing adds is paramount.

Lastly, I feel that monk damage mitigation needs to be increased a bit. This might not need to be done if our health is increased, but I would have to see how if and when that would happen. I am not trying to suggest anything crazy here. Maybe a slight increase to the amount of damage staggered would work, either through blackout kick or our natural stagger.


Monks have 25% passive mitigation, 28% passive+shuffle evasion, a short cooldown to add another 30% evasion, and a mechanic that guarantees 44% of all physical damage is smoothde out.

I'm going to be very blunt when I say this: Actual monk mitigation is really. Frikken. Strong. If you want to make an argument, find a tank that you think outdoes monks, and Show. Your. Work.

Complaining about hp when warriors get less is rediculous. Complaining about mitigation when we're actually close to the top on baseline mitigation AND evasion is also not a strong argument.

Numbers, son. Bring numbers.

An increase to our armor through stance of the sturdy ox might work was well. I don't know exactly what percentage increase here would work but it would only mitigate physical damage so as not to make us over powered in magic based encounters.


Why? Is Stagger + the highest evasion in the game + 25% damage reduction not effective enough?

Numbers, you must bring them.

Even a simple fix like not making keg smash and jab able to be parried while in stance of the sturdy ox might work (or have them generate chi even if they miss).


Not gonna happen. Hit and expertise are mitigation stats for tanks because of active mitigation.

Having the ability to reforge/gem for less expertise and more haste/crit would allow for more active mitigation and may do the trick as well. I don't think this needs to be fixed through avoidance however, because I feel like we do will in the avoidance area.


You're damn rights we do well in the avoidance area. But you still haven't shown monk mitigation is a problem. You need to provide data, math, theorycraft... SOMETHING.

I don't want brewmasters to be overpowered by any means but they should at least be in line with our plate wearing tanks.


Dude. On many fights, plate wearing tanks should be brought in line with US.

I really like the feel of brewmaster tanking as it is very unique, and I feel they can be brought in line with other tanks with some minor tweaking of the spec. If nothing is done I feel I am going to have to main change back to one of my other tanks for the sake of my guilds progression and my healers sanity.


Why? It's not actually broken. Show some logs, maybe we can help you grok this beast a little better.

Do any of you guys have any other reasonable suggestions as to how to fix brewmaster tanking?


My only problems with the brewmaster are the relative meh-ness of the Tier 90 talents. I'm a tank, and my level 90 talents involve choosing between AoE threat for trash, a dps cooldown with a taunt for trash, and a movement+healing talent that is good for pulling trash.

'How to deal with trash' is NOT a good theme for level 90.

Other than that... you're asserting numerical inferiority where you haven't shown numerical inferiority. You need actual math if you want to show monks as mathematicly inferior. Post a log from one of your raids, so we can actually see if you're doing it right, or if your problems are not in the class but in the user.
90 Pandaren Monk
8860
This thread is bad.
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
12/05/2012 03:17 PMPosted by Zegreiart
This thread is bad.
100 Blood Elf Monk
10205
I personally love how people like to chime in and simply list off the spells and cool downs available to a class when they have little to no experience actually tanking with the class in raids. LFR doesn't count for this experience either. At no point did I say that brewmasters are incapable of tanking the current tier. I simply stated that we are weaker than other classes by a noticeable amount. Am I going to do the math for you, no. Why? I don't have the time to dedicate to that between college classes, work, raiding, and having a bit of a life in between.

@ Brewstout

1) glyph of guard worth it in one fight in the current tier and that is Lei Shi, and that is only because that fight is pure magic damage spam from the boss. All the other fights this tier have too much physical damage going for that glyph to be worth it. In all honestly with the way all of the tanks are designed the fight should never have even put put into the game because DKs and Paladins simply do WAY better here than any other tanks b/c of their self healing ability and life pools. In all honesty I probably wouldn't complain about magic damage as much if not for this fight, at least not on normal mode.

2) You realize that keg smash hits targets based off their distance. It does not do damage in a cone at all. Stating that you should be mindful of the direction is moronic.

3) Congrats you know how to read your spell book. Never said we have no mitigation simply said that I felt it needed to be buffed slightly. Even something as simple as tweaking our current abilities so that you can maintain more uptime on our active mitigation would work.

And I switch between stam flasks, agi flask, and double elixir depending on the fight. I also alternate between agi pots and armor pots depending on what I need in a fight.

@ Linnelle

Exactly what you said in your last paragraph. Brewmasters can't maintain 100% uptime on stagger while using guard when available and clearing your stagger debuff when it gets to moderate to high damage. If and when stagger falls off brewmasters get destroyed. This in itself can easily cause a tank death. In all honestly if something were done to fix this issue I would probably be happy with brewmaster tanking. If not, we need more passive mitigation of some sort.

@ kickgruntler

I'll respond to you later when I have more time.
Edited by Verothous on 12/5/2012 4:42 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
14485
Monks are the highest skill-curve tanking class that has ever been put into this game, and due largely to Purifying Brew, Elusive Brew, Guard and Expel Harm, we have the highest degree of control over incoming damage of any tank class. We have an extraordinarily powerful and versatile kit with substantial amounts of damage, strong short-cooldown defensive abilities and valuable raid healing (I frequently crit single Chi Wave heal bounces over 160k and Black Ox Statue prevents 4+ million damage on practically every 6 minute fight).

The weak points you mentioned are all baseless. The only real weakness Monks have is in Fortifying Brew, which is comparable to Shield Wall, etc. against physical damage, but falls flat against spells. The problem with complaining about that is Diffuse Magic and Glyph of Guard both keep us very competitive when handling spell damage.

Looking at your achievements and boss kills, you appear to have formed a strong opinion based upon no significant experience. If you are convinced that Monks have a problem or are behind as tanks, you are wrong, and you need to improve your play. There is one way to do that, and it's called practice.

Had to edit to include this gem:

@ Linnelle

Exactly what you said in your last paragraph. Brewmasters can't maintain 100% uptime on stagger while using guard when available and clearing your stagger debuff when it gets to moderate to high damage.


Oh yes we can.
Edited by Llarold on 12/5/2012 4:51 PM PST
100 Pandaren Monk
11170
Tout your opinion all you want, but Kickgruntler is right: you need data to back up your claims if you want to be taken seriously. One of the first things I check after a fight is Damage Taken, Healing Taken and unless they seriously outgear me, I'm usually lower than my tank partner. Of course one data point doesn't suggest a trend, maybe I just run with a lot of bad tanks. Unlike you, however, I at least have a bit of data to back up my claim: Brewmasters aren't doing that bad.
100 Blood Elf Monk
10205
How about this I will include 2 sets of logs and you all can tell me if there is anything I'm doing wrong. If it is a problem with me great, that means it is something I can fix myself. Me and the other tank I am tanking with have comparable gear so gear definitely isn't the issue.

HoF - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4zbljs3z1lib0i3i/dashboard/

MsV - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2vyd2uifdtrw9do7/

@ Llarold - I would like to see a log of you maintaining 95% uptime on shuffle or higher when you are actively tanking the entire fight. Single boss fights where there is a tank swap mechanic don't count because you can simply spend all of your chi to build up your duration on shuffle while the other tank has threat. On a fight where I am taking constant damage I am only able to maintain shuffle at between 80% and 90% uptime if I am consistently spending chi on guard and purifying brew.
90 Pandaren Monk
12790
The only issue I have as a tank is not having many raid CDs to use. I mean I have Avert Harm but it harms the raid more than it does help (Maybe I just don't use it right) and I don't really use it much and the raid doesn't notice. Zen Med is a good spell I just think the CD should be shorter for how it works or the spell gets a change where it possibly could take like 30% less damage and not break on melee?

I still love being a BrM tank, it's the most fun I've had tanking sense I started to tank!
Edited by Kegs on 12/5/2012 5:39 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
14485
Last night's log:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9sl9zx9p69zm9u1u/details/13/

The following are Shuffle uptimes on the fights in which I was actively tanking or remaining on target with no fear of pulling threat for the entire fight (and Feng, threat is a !@#$% early).
Elite Protectors of the Endless, 98.9% uptime
On Tsulong and Lei Shi I aggressively off-heal while not tanking. 2.5M from Chi Wave on Tsulong, 1.4M on Lei Shi.
Sha of Fear, 98.4% uptime
Heroic Stone Guard, 94% uptime
Heroic Feng, 93.4% uptime while watching threat.
Heroic Gara'jal, 99.1% uptime.
Heroic Spirit Kings are touchy and there is a lot of downtime. Better having no Shuffle up than being Robbed Blind.

It's funny that you mention a tank swap being a great way to stack up Shuffle. It's demonstrative of your threat output.

Like I asserted before, skill is what makes this class work. Quit being angry and develop skill through practice.

Just looking at your parse, you didn't have Ox Statue down for Tay'ak. That is a tremendous oversight.
You can also improve a lot just by changing your gearing. You are under 3000 haste and expertise capped while dual wielding. The largest reason for being expertise capped is to generate GoTOx, which is vastly more effective when using a 2h. You have reforged so much haste to expertise in order to get capped, and that is most definitely having an adverse effect on your chi generation.
Raid time. I'll look over your log afterward.
90 Pandaren Monk
3160
Of all the monk specs, Brewmasters have the least issues. The mitigation is strong. The mechanics are effective. The general tanking structure works as intended.

The ONLY issue I really have is stuns. I really wish Brewmasters had Dematerialize like Mistweavers do.
90 Pandaren Monk
14485
Looked through your logs more. You need to be using Keg Smash on cooldown with no gaps, you don't Expel Harm nearly often enough (there is no punishment for using it above 35% and getting chunked back down now) and you are probably being too zealous with PB. Keeping up Stagger is a higher priority than Purifying off regularly, so if you're having trouble with the former as a result of the latter, it's indicative of an issue in your ability priority.

More observations on gear. You're using 2pc, so you should switch to a crit chance meta. There are two basic philosophies for gemming/enchanting BM and they are dependent upon fights. Either prioritize haste for maximum Chi generation or stack Mastery and Stamina for maximum staggering of damage. The former is more active and less forgiving, the latter is more passive and has less reward. You are gemming Stamina, but are prioritizing neither Mastery or Haste, and you would be well-served to deviate one way or the other.

Incidentally, 200 Stamina to Cloak is the only Cloak enchant worth using as a tank. It's way higher budget than any other options.

Good dodging on Will.
Edited by Llarold on 12/5/2012 10:11 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
6570
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2vyd2uifdtrw9do7/details/2/?s=1756&e=1836

This is a specific portion of a fight, where you were tanking garajai.

Now this is a specific portion of time during which you had the boss.

Let's look at what you -aren't- doing during this period, which can explain the spikes you definately took.

First: During this period of time you had 17 melee crits. However, you only had a total of 15 seconds of elusive brew time. 17 crits (assuming you're dw for this) is more than enough to get you another 15 seconds. Assuming you went in with 15 stacks, you should have 30 seconds of elusive brew uptime during this period.

Second: You did NOT cast Guard on yourself ONCE--this is just negligent. Now you probably guarded before this segment (which by the way is okay), but you should have gone in with guard, and been able to refresh a guard, which would have reduced melee spikes considerably.

Third: Where is Avert Harm? Fortifying Brew? Dampen Harm? This is one fight that should favor monks hardcore, and I don't see you cycling your cooldowns -at all- during this period. Dampen harm near the beginning, and it's up again for your next shift. Avert Harm during the other tank's turn, and pop guard just to suck the damage.

Fourth: You purifying brewed 4 times, but you only touched moderate stagger twice. You could have turned that over into an extra guard -easy-.

This is just an example.
Edited by Kickgruntler on 12/6/2012 1:28 AM PST
100 Human Rogue
3190
Isn't glyph of Guard really good on pure physical fights? Meaning you keep the inherent self heal bonus 100%?
100 Human Rogue
3190
12/06/2012 02:13 AMPosted by Zegreiart
Show yourself out. Door's on the right.

*shrug* a simple no would have sufficed. It was decent pre 5.0 from what I remember.
Edited by Esclamayshun on 12/6/2012 2:15 AM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
SoF
11250
A self heal is useless if you simply don't have the health to take the damage.
90 Pandaren Monk
10105
Really your not serious? In most fights I'm taking at least 3-4% less dmg then our other tank. We have just been constantly clearing msv and are tackling HoF, our guild isn't hardcore and takes it easy come easy go. But so far no problems on my last will fight I was 4th in dmg taken even though I had 2 sets of strengths on me. Anywho glyph of guard is awsome for elegon esp for breath, and I'm sure you do already but use ask mr robot to reforge for you as BM. Just my input so far I find we are fine and obviously my experience differs from yours :-D
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