Brewmasters need tweaking

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90 Pandaren Monk
14485
You need to do 680k+ self-healing per glyphed Guard just to break even on physical-only fights, and mind you, that's 680k self-healing that would have occurred after the unglyphed Guard had been consumed. Moreover, you're sacrificing an emergency shield to do so.

*shrug* a simple no would have sufficed. It was decent pre 5.0 from what I remember.

Glyphing Guard for increased self-healing is a moron trap, and it has been from the moment a moron first posited the idea.
Edited by Llarold on 12/6/2012 8:46 AM PST
90 Human Monk
8060
Verothous, in no way is it necessary to cap at 15% expertise. If you have a hard time keeping up shuffle that's a bummer because in no way should you have that issue. Start reforging out of expertise and into haste. The amount of times you notice jab or keg smash missing will become negligible with higher chi gen. Try opening up a pull with fortifying brew if you are having that much of an issue keeping up shuffle. This way you can devote more chi towards BoK. Obviously not ideal but i don't know what else to suggest to you. I also find it a little unfair to complain about a health pool when you aren't equipped with a stam trinket. Either way we make up for that loss with a high avoidance. The only BrM issue is our dismal t9 talents.
90 Draenei Monk
9255
@OP, you honestly don't have a clue what you're talking about. Minus a few tweaks to Monk tanking, we are in a very good place right now.
90 Pandaren Monk
14485
12/06/2012 08:52 AMPosted by Phaerona
Verothous, in no way is it necessary to cap at 15% expertise. If you have a hard time keeping up shuffle that's a bummer because in no way should you have that issue. Start reforging out of expertise and into haste. The amount of times you notice jab or keg smash missing will become negligible with higher chi gen. Try opening up a pull with fortifying brew if you are having that much of an issue keeping up shuffle. This way you can devote more chi towards BoK. Obviously not ideal but i don't know what else to suggest to you. I also find it a little unfair to complain about a health pool when you aren't equipped with a stam trinket. Either way we make up for that loss with a high avoidance. The only BrM issue is our dismal t9 talents.


90 Talents are fine. RJW and Xuen are tremendous damage increases. Xuen needs a no-taunt minor glyph for use on adds (re:Sha of Fear).

OP: Good start on regemming. I don't recommend switching from Power Strikes to Ascendance until you have about twice as much haste as present. Math for Ascendance has gearing at over 9000 haste (no, really) before it is superior chi/minute to Power Strikes (a bit over 9k if expertise capped, closer to 9800 if only soft-capping), but in practice I'm finding the playstyle of Ascendance more forgiving around 8k haste than Power Strikes. Also, that math has not taken into account haste procs or Heroism, which gives me ~19.5 energy regen per second with my present haste and Ascendance. That kind of Chi generation allows you to stack up Shuffle so aggressively that you can be liberal with Chi heals or PB's for the rest of the fight and have no uptime issues.
90 Human Monk
8060
90 Talents are fine. RJW and Xuen are tremendous damage increases. Xuen needs a no-taunt minor glyph for use on adds (re:Sha of Fear).


I just feel as a tank we need a tank cooldown. Two of the three are useless on a raid boss in almost any given situation. Xuen is a great damage increase... but there are almost no raid examples in a raid where the taunt is worth while and as a tank im not too concerned about damage. It should give like a 10% damage xfer or something. It needs to feel more tankish.
90 Pandaren Monk
15830
I just staggered in here. I found the conversation to be quite purifying compared the fortifying discussions in the other brewmaster threads.

Seriously though. I understand where the op is coming from. Tanking magic fights as a brewmaster efficently requires more than just keeping shuffle up. It requires actually knowing a bit more about our CDs, how they work and using them efficently, ALL OF WHICH CAN BE GLEANED from Zegrieart's post.

Our physical damage mitigation is obnoxious, our magic damage mitigation is only good using other abilities (what a shock right!)
90 Pandaren Monk
14485
12/06/2012 10:08 AMPosted by Phaerona
90 Talents are fine. RJW and Xuen are tremendous damage increases. Xuen needs a no-taunt minor glyph for use on adds (re:Sha of Fear).


I just feel as a tank we need a tank cooldown. Two of the three are useless on a raid boss in almost any given situation. Xuen is a great damage increase... but there are almost no raid examples in a raid where the taunt is worth while and as a tank im not too concerned about damage. It should give like a 10% damage xfer or something. It needs to feel more tankish.


We have the two strongest damage reduction cooldowns in all of the five tank class talent trees, and you argue that we need another tier with tank talents.

You are out of your mind.

The only other tank class with a personal damage reduction talent is Pally, and it's for DoTs only.

Moreover, if you do not care about your damage as a tank, you are living in the stone age and do not have the right mindset for playing Brewmaster.
EDIT: Black Ox Statue - Brewmaster Damage is Raid Healing.

Tank Talent Tree Breakdown:
Monk - 3-hit Shield Wall, Spell Damage Dispersion, Damage CDs
T1: Mobility
T2: Raid Healing
T3: Resource Utility
T4: CC
T5: 3-hit Shield Wall, Spell Damage Dispersion
T6: Damage CDs

Death Knight - 2 Self-Heals, 1 Cheat Death
T1: Debuff Utility
T2: Cheat Death, Self Heal, Raid Utility
T3: Mobility, CC
T4: Self-Heal
T5: Resource Utility
T6: CC, Utility

Druid - Offensive/Healing CDs
T1: Mobility
T2: Self-Healing
T3: CC
T4: Resource Utility, Offensive Active Mitigation CDs
T5: CC
T6: Damage, Healing, Utility CDs

Paladin - DoT CD
T1: Mobility
T2: CC
T3: Self-Shielding
T4: CDR/DoT damage reduction CD
T5: Offensive Active Mitigation CD
T6: Damage CDs

Warrior - Passive Execute-range regen, damage CDs, single target raid CDs
T1: Mobility
T2: Execute-ranged Health Regen
T3: CC, slows
T4: Damage, CC
T5: Single target raid damage reduction CDs
T6: Damage CDs
Edited by Llarold on 12/6/2012 11:03 AM PST
90 Human Monk
8060
Black Ox Statue - Brewmaster Damage is Raid Healing.

In regards to talents, and I could be wrong, I don't see Xuens damage as contributing to this. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Of course tank damage matters, but no tank should have to choose between a set of damage talents as their top tier talent. This talent should mean more than just an additional damage cooldown.
90 Pandaren Monk
14485
Of course tank damage matters, but no tank should have to choose between a set of damage talents as their top tier talent.


4 tank classes do. You do not understand the premise of the new talent system. The new talents are not supposed to be a relevant and meaningful choice with respect to your particular raiding job in every tier, and the 90 talents are not supposed to be stronger or more effective than preceding talents.
For the tank classes, the new talent trees provide a combination of choices between situational utility, mobility, damage output, healing and crowd control, and Monks far and away have the most pertinent of the five.

Xuen does not interact with Black Ox, but that's insignificant. My Xuen averages upwards of 2M per summon on Heroic Will. On a 3 minute CD, that's ~12k dps with no resource cost.
Edited by Llarold on 12/6/2012 11:53 AM PST
90 Human Monk
8060
I understand it just fine, throwing a taunt on Xuen to make it look like a tank cooldown is a joke. I completely get that other tanks choose between the same type of talents, but it still doesn't mean the design isn't bad IMO. Kudos to you that you like your talents, I'm not happy with them from a tank standpoint.
Edited by Phaerona on 12/6/2012 11:54 AM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
14485
12/06/2012 11:53 AMPosted by Phaerona
I understand it just fine, throwing a taunt on Xuen to make it look like a tank cooldown is a joke. I completely get that other tanks choose between the same type of talents, but it still doesn't mean the design isn't bad IMO. Kudos to you that you like your talents, I'm not happy with them from a tank standpoint.


That's not an argument. You made a value judgment that was unsupported by evidence and retreated to the shelter of opinion.
Yes, taunt on Xuen is not only worthless, it's detrimental and will get him killed. He is a dps cooldown, just like all other level 90 tank talents. We are the only class with damage reduction cooldowns in our talent tree.
We are ahead, and giving us even more tanking cooldowns will create a glaring lack of balance.
End discussion.
Edited by Llarold on 12/6/2012 11:59 AM PST
90 Human Monk
8060
I also feel you took the fact I pointed out one thing that I felt "could be tweaked" if anything as in response to the OP, as it's own argument. You are right Xuen does provide a great damage buff and cosmetically its probably one of the most badass talents in the game. (Insert new argument here)
Edited by Phaerona on 12/6/2012 12:00 PM PST
100 Pandaren Monk
13130
12/06/2012 08:52 AMPosted by Phaerona
Verothous, in no way is it necessary to cap at 15% expertise.


I've seen several people mentioning this, while at the same time advocating hit capping and expertise soft-capping. Given that all of our attacks that can be dodged can also be parried, we essentially, at zero expertise, have a 15% chance to have our attacks avoided. If Expertise is better than Haste when you have 2550 Expertise (dodge cap, 7.5% chance to be parried), why wouldn't it also be better when you have 4000 Expertise (dodge cap, ~3.3% chance to be parried)?
90 Human Monk
8060
Chi generation. Partly it's what feels fluent to you. Especially with Ascension, haste will provide more energy for more chi. Sure you still have that chance for an attack to be parried but there comes a point where more haste after X amount of expertise gives you more chi/sec. Another argument is when haste becomes better for auto attacks and elusive brew stacks than exp. I'm no expert and don't have numbers so I will not provide them. But in personal experience at a point haste felt more effective to the fact I dont have issues with shuffle dropping off as the OP is stating.
90 Pandaren Monk
6570
12/06/2012 11:44 AMPosted by Llarold
Of course tank damage matters, but no tank should have to choose between a set of damage talents as their top tier talent.


4 tank classes do.


If by 4 you mean 2.

Paladins can use theirs to self-heal, leaving BrM and Warriors.

RJW is terrible for bosses unless there's adds, which is a form of utility BrMs don't actually need, and the third is a lot more movement than you need on a tank which already has no problems with mobility.

And on a boss, Xuen is ONLY a dps cooldown.

All three have tank utility, but that utility is only useful on trash--where BrMs don't NEED that utility in the first place in raid situations.

In dungeons, all three show greater upside, I will admit.
100 Blood Elf Monk
16695
12/05/2012 12:47 PMPosted by Verothous
I don't mind our dps decreasing as I am a tank not a dps. My job is to survive first and foremost.

I do, because other tanks (blood dks at least) with similar gear levels already do more single-target damage than we do. While I agree that first and foremost, our job is survival, it'd be nice to not take forever to kill things when we're flying solo.

Besides, more damage == more threat.

Basically, our single target damage needs to go up and our aoe damage needs to go down.

That's my only real gripe with brewmaster, and why I (temporarily) speced out of it. My mistweaver spec was doing better single-target than my brewmaster spec. :/
90 Pandaren Monk
14485
12/06/2012 03:45 PMPosted by Kickgruntler


4 tank classes do.


If by 4 you mean 2.

Paladins can use theirs to self-heal, leaving BrM and Warriors.

RJW is terrible for bosses unless there's adds, which is a form of utility BrMs don't actually need, and the third is a lot more movement than you need on a tank which already has no problems with mobility.

And on a boss, Xuen is ONLY a dps cooldown.

All three have tank utility, but that utility is only useful on trash--where BrMs don't NEED that utility in the first place in raid situations.

In dungeons, all three show greater upside, I will admit.


You are willfully ignoring the point that none of the Five tank classes have tanking-related talents in the level 90 tier.
90 Pandaren Monk
8860
12/07/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Llarold
You are willfully ignoring the point that none of the Five tank classes have tanking-related talents in the level 90 tier.
lol you must be new here. Kickgruntler nailed our talents on the head.

Tell me, how are any of those talents useful in a raiding environment as tank cooldowns? You run Xuen. Xuen will not taunt a raid boss. It does nothing to contribute to your survivability. It only deals damage. Not a raid CD.

RJW does nothing useful for its 30s CD on a single target. Ranged damage, grants Shuffle, and then nothing. Not a raid CD.

Chi Torpedo is incredibly situational, and requires placement to heal more people than yourself. So it's a little more gimmicky than anything else. Not a raid CD.

None of these will save you from the ohnoespain from boss swings. These are not a raid CDs. These will not save you if you need to use one in an emergency.

Thanks for playing.
90 Human Monk
8060
12/07/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Llarold
You are willfully ignoring the point that none of the Five tank classes have tanking-related talents in the level 90 tier.

you are willfully ignoring that this is the point, no tank classes as their level 90 talent have a real tank talent, however in a raid situation other tanks at least have some survivable use with. the argument, for all tanks, is give us tanking talents. if these talents cannot be designed to go for all 3 specs and provide a use to that specs role. than they all need to be redisigned. again, the idea to try and throw a taunt on xuen is a joke and an insult because it provides no use in raids. trying to give roll healing is also a joke as blizz knows tank rolling through a boss to try and heal melee is idiodic. and RJW has no use when the boss is standing right in your face.
Edited by Phaerona on 12/7/2012 10:23 AM PST
90 Draenei Mage
6570
12/07/2012 10:20 AMPosted by Phaerona
You are willfully ignoring the point that none of the Five tank classes have tanking-related talents in the level 90 tier.

you are willfully ignoring that this is the point, no tank classes as their level 90 talent have a real tank talent, however in a raid situation other tanks at least have some survivable use with. the argument, for all tanks, is give us tanking talents. if these talents cannot be designed to go for all 3 specs and provide a use to that specs role. than they all need to be redisigned. again, the idea to try and throw a taunt on xuen is a joke and an insult because it provides no use in raids. trying to give roll healing is also a joke as blizz knows tank rolling through a boss to try and heal melee is idiodic. and RJW has no use when the boss is standing right in your face.


They don't even have to be raid cooldowns. I don't really need more Dampen Harms.

What I would like to see tho, is some tanking utility that isn't restricted to trash--where the level 90 talent is actually a CHOICE.

Currently, it's Xuen if you're dps, Xuen if you're a tank (for... dps...), and a choice if you're a mistweaver.

If l90 talents don't even offer a choice... that's a fail. I'm okay with earlier tiers being kinda determined... but level 90 should be a real choice.
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