Please give raiders options for Elder Charms

90 Worgen Warlock
16140
Ok, so I get the dailies and I get that doing them rewards you with lesser charms to turn into elder charms. Cool system. Just give me another option to earn them. Give me 2 to 5 lesser charms per heroic boss I kill. Dailies are not fun. They don't make me excited.

This tier, as far as raiding, hasn't been that bad outside of some minor (major?) aspects...Meng/I ALWAYS GO LEFT. But the daily system/conquest earning has been absolutely horrible and I know you all are addressing adding more conquest from raiding which is awesome...THANK YOU. However, the whole lesser charm system still forces us to do dailies which are....not challenging....not fun....annoying....time consuming....did I mention not fun?

My suggestion is to do something more along adding 15 lesser charms to doing the daily challenge mode dungeon and bringing back weekly raid bosses. KILL BLAH BLAH AND EARN 50 CONQUEST AND 15 LESSER CHARMS! (lfr obviously counting) Was also thinking you could even incorporate a daily or weekly rbg that would give lesser charms as well because it is not just the people who raid who need an outlet.

The point I am trying to make is that some people very well might enjoy doing those dailies but there are also people who very well do not. I believe that you (blizzard) are capable of making the game fun for those who enjoy raiding, pvp and whatever else it is and giving outlets of earning rewards "necessary" to advance your character. (yes, notice those quotes around necessary) So, please, just consider something as alternative for everyone.

Thank you for taking the time to read this long and drawn out suggestion to your current system, hopefully something can be done for next tier to feel a bit more fun. I would also like to end this by thanking you (blizzard) for your hard work and effort to constantly reshape your game to the many demands of your consumer.
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90 Human Monk
5685
I don't understand the deal with "double dipping" rewards from 5-mans in the first place. Elder charms are for raids. If you are qualified for even LFR MSV (460), then you have nothing or very little left to gain from 5-mans anyways.
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90 Undead Warlock
9020
The entire point of lesser charms is to give you an incentive to do other things then just raid.

They are not meant as a free extra roll that you can get just by sneezing in the game.
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90 Human Priest
14595
The entire point of lesser charms is to give you an incentive to do other things then just raid.

They are not meant as a free extra roll that you can get just by sneezing in the game.


Pretty much this.

They added the charms as extra incentive for you to get out and do dailies, specifically (which is why there is currently no other way to get charms).

I'm guessing Blizzard doesn't want to give you the charms without doing what they were added for.
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90 Human Rogue
10960
Pretty much this.

They added the charms as extra incentive for you to get out and do dailies, specifically (which is why there is currently no other way to get charms).

I'm guessing Blizzard doesn't want to give you the charms without doing what they were added for.


I think it (along with higher valor gains) could be an interesting way to incentivize 25 man raiding without killing 10 man as a competitive format. In the beginning I didn't think this would give enough incentive to make a real impact but a few months of grinding later I really do. 10 mans keep their equal loot and 25 mans don't have to do the 5 man chores or dailies outside of raid to make up for the ridiculous amount of overhead that comes with managing a 30 man roster.

Blizzard has said since day 1 they want to make 25 mans more appealing without damaging 10 mans. I think this is one way to go about it.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8835
If they're going to hand out charms in raids, then why should the charms even exist?
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90 Human Paladin
10740
Dropping them from raids would beg the question of their purpose. But being able to get them somehow outside of dailies would be nice.
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90 Human Rogue
10960
12/05/2012 10:13 AMPosted by Zionic
If they're going to hand out charms in raids, then why should the charms even exist?


I'd be more than fine with their complete removal as well.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13685
Like people said, Charms of Good Fortune are Blizzard's answer to people only logging in the game to raid and not coming back until next raid.

Gives you something to do meanwhile.

Plus there is no cap.. many people sit with 1k+ of those in bank and don't have to do dailies for a really long time.
Edited by Karuzo on 12/5/2012 10:18 AM PST
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90 Human Rogue
10960
Like people said, Charms of Good Fortune are Blizzard's answer to people only logging in the game to raid and not coming back until next raid.

Gives you something to do meanwhile.

Plus there is no cap.. many people sit with 1k+ of those in bank and don't have to do dailies for a really long time.


K. Think of another way that gives people incentive to put the extra work into running 25 mans that doesn't completely kill 10 mans.
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90 Goblin Priest
11785
People are going to feel obligated to do things that give them more, relevant loot. They won't feel that it's optional. You can disagree with this, and explain how they don't have to feel this way, and they shouldn't think of it like this, and it's not what's intended and so on. The fact is that people do feel this way any time it benefits them significantly in their raids, and current-tier quality loot absolutely does that. So, they feel required (whether you think they should or not) to do things that they think are lame by now. I am sure that's not what the devs actually intended to happen. Nobody would want to make a game where people feel forced (again, your opinion on whether or not they should feel this way is irrelevant) to do things that are annoying and feel like time-wasting busy work. It's a game, and they want them to enjoy it. Their intentions for the design of the charms system isn't producing the results that they, I can only assume, wanted to produce.

I, along with many others, think that some other options for obtaining these would be most welcome. Until then, I'll continue to do dailies for charms. I won't like it, but I'll keep doing it despite how annoying they are. Surely the devs don't want their game to feel this way, but it's a huge game, this is a very tiny portion of it and there is much for them to focus on, so it's understandable if they don't change this soon or ever.
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Lesser Charms from 25man boss kills is a good idea. Maybe 5 per boss, along with extra valor?

It's unlikely that they're going to completely remove the need to do dailies and other things outside raids--but it can be mitigated somewhat and also provides a nice way to give incentives to 25s.
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90 Draenei Hunter
VS
10230
An extra shot at loot should not be given lightly. You have to earn that roll.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13685

K. Think of another way that gives people incentive to put the extra work into running 25 mans that doesn't completely kill 10 mans.


That would be assuming there is more work to do outside of raid time in 25 man than 10 man, which is absolutely not true, beside recruitment. And even then, it's hard as hell to find a proper replacement in 10 man because you have very specific needs for group composition.

Don't get me wrong, leaded heroic progression raids as melee officer and raid leader from tier 8 to 11. I don't think I work less leading my current 10 man than I was back then. In fact I'd say it's even worse because I have to lead 9 other people instead of 5 as melee officer, and 4 as raid leader (officers).
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90 Human Rogue
10960
12/05/2012 10:30 AMPosted by Azivalla
An extra shot at loot should not be given lightly. You have to earn that roll.


You have a very funny definition of the word "earn" when killing heroic raid bosses that 95% of the population can't kill is less deserving than doing dailies in which failure is an impossibility even for the worst player to install the game.

12/05/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Karuzo
That would be assuming there is more work to do outside of raid time in 25 man than 10 man, which is absolutely not true, beside recruitment. And even then, it's hard as hell to find a proper replacement in 10 man because you have very specific needs for group composition.


If you actually believe this you need your head examined.

12/05/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Karuzo
Don't get me wrong, leaded heroic progression raids as melee officer and raid leader from tier 8 to 11. I don't think I work less leading my current 10 man than I was back then. In fact I'd say it's even worse because I have to lead 9 other people instead of 5 as melee officer, and 4 as raid leader (officers).


Then sorry to burst your bubble but you where a bad officer (and a lot of them are). There is recruitment which you mentioned (and this is a huge part). This in turn means more interviews and more evaluations. There is coming with a more complex strategy (as you are literally organizing 2.5x the amount of people). There is farming 2.5x the amount of mats. There is dealing with 2.5x the amount of drama. There is tracking which pieces of loot every person gets as well as knowing which pieces of loot are better for which classes and specs (and you have much less spec diversity in 10 man). There is tracking which players come in for each boss and doing so in a balanced way. There are constant personnel assessment amongst trials and even some of your core raiders. There is listening to 2.5x the amount of peoples ideas. There is log break downs for progression bosses you have yet to kill in which there is 2.5x the amount of data to analyze. There are probably still plenty of things I have forgotten but I too have a background of leading both 10 and 25 man guilds and 25 man is a lot more work.

PS: I got a good laugh out of you saying a 25 man raid leader only has to lead 4 people.
Edited by Ninjablaze on 12/5/2012 11:07 AM PST
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90 Human Monk
5685
Okay, then not in raids. Drops from killing things, harvesting, scenarios, 5-mans, killing old bosses etc.

There are plenty of ways besides dailies. What was wrong with TB/Molten front? They had upgrades that you couldn't use a tabard to get, but there were alternative ways to upgrade. There are no alternatives for Elder charms.

If people dislike the design so much that the only way to get them to do dailies is to halve their loot chances in raids, doesn't it speak for the enjoyability of it?
Edited by Leciel on 12/5/2012 11:21 AM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
12455
12/05/2012 10:30 AMPosted by Azivalla
An extra shot at loot should not be given lightly. You have to earn that roll.

When you look at the idea of "incentivizing 25-man raiding" (which Blizzard has repeatedly said is important to them), you don't have many options that don't carry the side-effect of "marginalizing other formats."

But one very rich area is the idea of "lightening the out-of-raid burden" for 25 man raiders. It doesn't shut 10-man raiders out of anything, but it does save the 25-man raiders some time - time that they are probably being forced to devote to the higher administrative difficulty of a larger raid team.

I don't see why lesser charms can't be thought of as similar to valor, nor can I see any reason for not tossing a few on to 25-man bosses.

Pretend, for a moment, that 25-man bosses dropped 3 lesser charms. A full 16-boss clear nets the player 48 - half their weekly "requirement." What's so bad about that, really? A meaningful incentive for some people, as it represents 24 daily quests that can now be skipped.

Sounds reasonable to me, and yet another of those elusive "incentives" Blizzard is looking for to support 25-man teams.
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I understand their motives behind the charms and the VP upgrade system, but I think it's going to bite them in the !@#.

Capping VP every week for the life of the game and averaging 6-7 dailies (per day to get the charms) for the entire time is going burn people out.
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90 Worgen Warlock
16140
Yeah, let me make myself clear that I don't think we should just be "handed" these lesser charms for extra loot but I also do not think I should have to sit and do dailies nonstop at this point to continue to build charms. I want options of earning lesser charms just as there are options of earning valor.

As others said, I'll continue to do dailies until then.
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90 Undead Priest
16470
The entire point of lesser charms is to give you an incentive to do other things then just raid.

They are not meant as a free extra roll that you can get just by sneezing in the game.


Fine then. Put them behind interesting and exciting content.

HARD Brawlers mobs are interest (rank 7+ and a couple scattered lower ranks).

Challenge modes are interesting.

My wife loves pet battles, but since they give me nothing, I don't bother... but you know what, I could be interested if they rewarded me with raid gear, probably more interested than from dailys (or at least a nice break from them).

If they want us to do other things, why not make those other things interesting rather than a chore?

Sorry, I just don't buy your reasoning. If Blizzard wanted to provide an incentive to do something besides raiding then they should make anything else interesting to raiders...

Either way, I raid a lot each week... Why do I need to spend more time doing things?
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