Why don't paladins have defensive stands?

90 Human Paladin
13195
Different classes have different abilities that provide different strengths and weaknesses that make the class useful for different things and different play styles.

It boggles my mind why this concept is so hard to grasp. I guess it's human nature though to not want to adapt around something else, but to instead change things to work around you. Why people continually play a class they don't enjoy while there's another class that fits them better is beyond me. You aren't going to get the paladin class changed to fit your needs, so why not play the class that better suits you instead?
Edited by Bravehearth on 12/6/2012 8:31 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
5785
12/06/2012 07:46 AMPosted by Grôgnárd
Warrior's tools.


Blood presence, bear form, ox stance says hi.
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90 Human Paladin
3020
Honestly, I think we fulfill being better off-healers as Ret in PvE than off-tank. Which, considering most of the tank classes, isn't easy to fulfill.

- Warriors, DKs heals only affect themselves

There is a Death Coil glyph that can give a bubble, but what DK is willing to sacrifice RP / space for it?

- WW Monks can apply Healing Spheres I guess
- Druids can sort of off-heal

And we can keep threat off with Hand of Salvation, at least for a short time. Best to leave "off-tanking" to other classes that fulfill it better.

In terms of PvP... well... that's a different story.
Edited by Bassm on 12/6/2012 9:33 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
5785
12/06/2012 09:30 AMPosted by Bassm
In terms of PvP


I got this br0.

In terms of pvp. Being a ret paladin you're always first in the kill order. Why?

Your cooldowns. They want to smash you before you can pop them and:

You're squishy, you have no defensive stance (they know this too) and once bubble is down you might as well be naked.

That's why we get globaled and that's why we rage. We have no passive 30% damage reduction stance to pop like every other melee class.

AND IT SUCKS.
Edited by Invincible on 12/6/2012 9:37 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
11260
12/06/2012 09:22 AMPosted by Invincible
Warrior's tools.


Blood presence, bear form, ox stance says hi.


12/05/2012 10:48 PMPosted by Pallysrus
I'm just having a hard time with warriors , I would give bubble , flash of light , and WoG anyday for the stuff warriors got.


Reading comprehension says hello. If you're gonna be snarky, try to pay attention to what you're being snarky about, or you'll just look foolish.
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90 Human Paladin
8120
Different classes have different abilities that provide different strengths and weaknesses that make the class useful for different things and different play styles.

It boggles my mind why this concept is so hard to grasp. I guess it's human nature though to not want to adapt around something else, but to instead change things to work around you. Why people continually play a class they don't enjoy while there's another class that fits them better is beyond me. You aren't going to get the paladin class changed to fit your needs, so why not play the class that better suits you instead?


Maybe people like Paladin classes for other reasons...Maybe they like the concept, lore, looks, effects, etc. Hell, maybe they picked it not knowing anything and simply don't have another few weeks of spare time to reroll.

Bros just want to not suck, they're not asking to have every ability that every other class has. They just want to go into a BG and not get steamrolled in 3 seconds by dudes in blues. Ret is just not a competitive PvP spec ATM.
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90 Human Paladin
5785
Reading comprehension says hello. If you're gonna be snarky, try to pay attention to what you're being snarky about, or you'll just look foolish.


Grogtard is making this a reroll and l2p thread like every other one. Paladins having no defensive stance isn't an opinion, or guess, or myth; it's fact.

You made a post, good going.
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90 Draenei Paladin
11260
12/06/2012 09:49 AMPosted by Invincible
Reading comprehension says hello. If you're gonna be snarky, try to pay attention to what you're being snarky about, or you'll just look foolish.


Grogtard is making this a reroll and l2p thread like every other one. Paladins having no defensive stance isn't an opinion, or guess, or myth; it's fact.


Maybe you didn't read my first post, so I'll say it again.

Paladins have seals. They are to paladins like stances are to the other hybrid classes.

Variety in tools and utility are what make this game fun and why there are different classes instead of one class with one playstyle. If you want to play a class that has no seals and stances instead of a paladin . . . there are options for you to choose from. If you want to play a paladin, you will have seals and no stance.
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90 Human Paladin
8120
12/06/2012 09:49 AMPosted by Invincible
Reading comprehension says hello. If you're gonna be snarky, try to pay attention to what you're being snarky about, or you'll just look foolish.


Grogtard is making this a reroll and l2p thread like every other one. Paladins having no defensive stance isn't an opinion, or guess, or myth; it's fact.

You made a post, good going.


Telling somebody to reroll or l2p is just as counterproductive as saying "give me stances." Most players really don't understand the entire scale of where Ret is currently in PvP. The reality is, the spec is in probably in the worst shape it's been since The Burning Crusade (not as bad but close).

The changes made to PvP power made Ret worse than it already was prior to 5.1 which was relatively subpar but not utter trash. Now it's just utter trash. 9 out of 10 players don't really bother to know the logistics as to why their class sucks, they just know it does because they get steamrolled consistently in BGs and can't understand why they're not as effective as their closest counterparts which are other Plate Wearing classes.

These very same 9 out of 10 players like Grognard will come on here and reply to each other with L2P yet they have absolutely 0 experience or understanding of any PvP outisde of random BGs so they really don't fully get how deep the suck truly goes.

As it stands now, Warriors are Gods, yes DKs lack some stuff in Arenas but in BGs will do very well, Rets on the other hand are a laughing stock all around and people get annoyed because patch after patch just makes things worse.

TL:DR If you think they're fixing Ret anytime soon, think again...Get Holy Gear lol
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90 Human Paladin
8120
12/06/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Jamina


Grogtard is making this a reroll and l2p thread like every other one. Paladins having no defensive stance isn't an opinion, or guess, or myth; it's fact.


Maybe you didn't read my first post, so I'll say it again.

Paladins have seals. They are to paladins like stances are to the other hybrid classes.

Variety in tools and utility are what make this game fun and why there are different classes instead of one class with one playstyle. If you want to play a class that has no seals and stances instead of a paladin . . . there are options for you to choose from. If you want to play a paladin, you will have seals and no stance.


Seals are nothing like stances, the only similarity is their location on user interface. Once upon a time Paladins had auras there, which did kinda the same thing as stances on top of seals. The OP doesn't want defensive stance, he wants something like defensive stance which is a passive damage reduction (which Paladins had boatloads of). These were removed when WoG came into the picture with the idea that Paladins no longer needed all these passive tankish talents which increased their durability because now they had free instant heals. That was fine and dandy until the instant heals became absolutely worthless in the grand scheme of things.

Anybody who thinks switching to Seal of Insight is going to save you vs anything other than maybe a non elite Mob needs to be put in a rubber room.

I love these forums, they let me stay sane on the boring days at work.
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90 Human Paladin
5785
Telling somebody to reroll or l2p is just as counterproductive as saying "give me stances." Most players really don't understand the entire scale of where Ret is currently in PvP. The reality is, the spec is in probably in the worst shape it's been since The Burning Crusade (not as bad but close).

The changes made to PvP power made Ret worse than it already was prior to 5.1 which was relatively subpar but not utter trash. Now it's just utter trash. 9 out of 10 players don't really bother to know the logistics as to why their class sucks, they just know it does because they get steamrolled consistently in BGs and can't understand why they're not as effective as their closest counterparts which are other Plate Wearing classes.

These very same 9 out of 10 players like Grognard will come on here and reply to each other with L2P yet they have absolutely 0 experience or understanding of any PvP outisde of random BGs so they really don't fully get how deep the suck truly goes.

As it stands now, Warriors are Gods, yes DKs lack some stuff in Arenas but in BGs will do very well, Rets on the other hand are a laughing stock all around and people get annoyed because patch after patch just makes things worse.

TL:DR If you think they're fixing Ret anytime soon, think again...Get Holy Gear lol


This

Seals are nothing like stances, the only similarity is their location on user interface. Once upon a time Paladins had auras there, which did kinda the same thing as stances on top of seals. The OP doesn't want defensive stance, he wants something like defensive stance which is a passive damage reduction (which Paladins had boatloads of). These were removed when WoG came into the picture with the idea that Paladins no longer needed all these passive tankish talents which increased their durability because now they had free instant heals. That was fine and dandy until the instant heals became absolutely worthless in the grand scheme of things.

Anybody who thinks switching to Seal of Insight is going to save you vs anything other than maybe a non elite Mob needs to be put in a rubber room.

I love these forums, they let me stay sane on the boring days at work.


And this.

12/06/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Jamina
Paladins have seals


Comparing a 5k heal every melee attack, to the aforementioned tanking stances speaks volumes about your complete and utter misunderstanding of how PvP works.

You need to be in melee range for SOI to be "effective" even then, it pales in comparison to blood presence; that instantly turns you into a tank. Which in PvP means not getting globaled.
Edited by Invincible on 12/6/2012 10:20 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
11260
12/06/2012 10:20 AMPosted by Invincible
This


12/06/2012 10:20 AMPosted by Invincible
And this.


12/06/2012 10:20 AMPosted by Invincible
Comparing a 5k heal every melee attack, to the aforementioned tanking stances speaks volumes about your complete and utter misunderstanding of how PvP works.


To which I say, for the third of fourth time

12/06/2012 03:08 AMPosted by Jamina
If you want to PvP with a dps spec that has no seals but stances, there are several to choose from.


No, seals aren't exactly like stances. They do serve a similar function, though. All classes are different and have different perks and drawbacks. Otherwise this game would be World of Warriors with only one class to PvP with.
Edited by Jamina on 12/6/2012 10:27 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
5785
12/06/2012 10:25 AMPosted by Jamina
To which I say, for the third of fourth time


No one here is rerolling, we simply wish to raise awareness to the devs on how and why ret isn't as effective in pvp as it could be. Please spew your elitist filth somewhere else. Thanks.
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90 Human Paladin
5785
12/06/2012 10:29 AMPosted by Jamina
If you don't like that Paladins don't have stances, you shouldn't have rolled one in the first place


That's not how feedback works, honey. You observe; THEN, report.

Clearly, your mind works the opposite way.
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90 Draenei Paladin
11260
12/06/2012 10:34 AMPosted by Invincible
If you don't like that Paladins don't have stances, you shouldn't have rolled one in the first place


That's not how feedback works, honey. You observe; THEN, report.

Clearly, your mind works the opposite way.


"Ret is taking too much damage, ret isn't putting out enough damage, I don't like how the seals are working, etc." is feedback.

"We want the tools other classes have because it's not fair" is whining.

And I like when you call me honey. It's sweet. Can I call you sugarbear?
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90 Human Paladin
5785
12/06/2012 10:39 AMPosted by Jamina
"We want the tools other classes have because it's not fair"


That's exactly right - fairness=balance.

It's unbalanced to be completely defenseless in pvp as a melee class, when all other melees have that kind of extreme passive damage reduction.

Why are you so concerned about pvp, anyhow? You don't pvp... Just here to talk down on people?
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90 Draenei Paladin
11260
"We want the tools other classes have because it's not fair"


That's exactly right - fairness=balance.

It's unbalanced to be completely defenseless in pvp as a melee class, when all other melees have that kind of extreme passive damage reduction.

Why are you so concerned about pvp, anyhow? You don't pvp... Just here to talk down on people?


Oh, sugarbear, do you think this is my only toon? That's sweet. You know, I might even have another account that I only use for PvP.. You have no idea what my experience is by looking at one character that I don't do much PvP with. Of course, it would be silly if I did, since this is my tank and I have no PvP gear.

And balance and fairness are not the same thing as every class having the exact same tools. Again, this isn't World of Warriors. Different classes are different and should be different. The biggest issue with our inequality with warriors is that they are currently overpowered, not that they have stances and we have seals.

And I like seals. I like being able to use all of my abilities no matter which one I'm using. You don't get that with stances. Which is one of the reasons why I don't think we should give up the utility of the seals for them.
Edited by Jamina on 12/6/2012 10:53 AM PST
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82 Human Warrior
13100
!@#$ing 1500 rated players thinking you know what you're talking about.

First off, warriors are borderline broken, well every class is broken with their trademark swifty one shot macros.

I don't know what a defensive stand is, however paladin's defensive cool downs are extremely good. How is the new Devotion Aura not great? Its amazing for any comp,

You do realize you have a 40% or 20%/20% damage reduction ability on a minute cool down right? Hand of Sac is amazingly good if you aren't a awful player and know how to use it.

Freedom's are broken against everything but mages and warriors, but those two classes are also the infected retarded %^-* storm classes that have always been good since S8 (And before although warriors weren't that great last season).

Bubble and Hand of Protections are something no other class has, like lol? cy@ you're not very good at da pvp's.

Its pretty stupid to compare anything to other classes since everything in this game is just stupid as !@#$ broken in pvp, I can literally go down trails of different things that are broken.

You obviously also play with bad players, I mean ret paladins are obviously focused for many reasons, but you do realize in Arena its more than just a 1v1, whenever I play with good players they know how to CC correctly when I'm getting focused so I can LoS and get heals off and abide time. Then we can just use our LOLSWIFTYONESHOTMACROS zzzz
Edited by Gotdatswagx on 12/6/2012 11:04 AM PST
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